Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jordan Cobalt]

do we really need 2000 posts x 3 threads to conclude that open and solo and group modes existing is viable but switching a single commander between them undermines multi-player modes. Either protecting all emergent multi-player gameplay is important or you choose to allow that to devolve and disappear...in which case you're left with a game with no campaign, no branching missions, nothing really.

You can obviously have both, but it seriously weakens the strength of multiplayer and without that you just have elite licensed ships in a sandbox with absolutely nothing to really attract a player to want to play vs just loading up X3 from a decade ago.

There is no poor experience in multiplayer unless you come across a player who is cheating.

I definitely agree with this statement. Mode switching hurts open since solo mode and to a lesser extent group, can be used to farm credits for PvP in open. There's often the situation where players can use solo trade to fund pvp piracy or bounty hunting careers without ever being on the other side of the equation.

I also agree, even situations when you're on the losing side, are good in open. I honestly get why it's such a big deal to die to a cmdr considering the npcs act the same way.

 

[Mouse]

I definitely agree with this statement. Mode switching hurts open since solo mode and to a lesser extent group, can be used to farm credits for PvP in open. There's often the situation where players can use solo trade to fund pvp piracy or bounty hunting careers without ever being on the other side of the equation.

I also agree, even situations when you're on the losing side, are good in open. I honestly get why it's such a big deal to die to a cmdr considering the npcs act the same way.

I have to ask.. why do you care where they earn credits? I agree with it being a crappy thing to do when your jumping traders in open but won't risk yourself, yet you attack everything else except what is truly the issue... those that engage in that behavior.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I have to ask.. why do you care where they earn credits? I agree with it being a crappy thing to do when your jumping traders in open but won't risk yourself, yet you attack everything else except what is truly the issue... those that engage in that behavior.

I care for exactly what you said, it's a crappy behavior. One that turns open into a shooting gallery. Instead of a healthy mix of all professions.

Do you not see a problem in open only being used for combat professions and the non combat ones in solo?

It's not only traders turned pirate, but bounty hunting too. I don't see a way to stop that, do you?

 

[Mouse]

I care for exactly what you said, it's a crappy behavior. One that turns open into a shooting gallery. Instead of a healthy mix of all professions.

Do you not see a problem in open only being used for combat professions and the non combat ones in solo?

It's not only traders turned pirate, but bounty hunting too. I don't see a way to stop that behavior, do you?

I think it is crappy people jumping in to hit traders and refusing to be the prey.. but I feel the same for those who stay in open and are never prey, but still why do you care if someone is pvping (not going after traders as that is pvp but not really vs.. more of PvV player vs victim) and made the money for their ship elsewhere? Fairness? If people are worried about fairness.. they ...wouldn't ... be .. going.. after... traders.. in.. the ..first.. place.


As for traders turning pirate and bounty hunting... it brings back a saying "If you can't beat em, join em" Do you really think those who trade in open and are victimized should not give it up and pirate themselves?

If Open is a plethora of combat professions and not all.. don't blame the modes or the switching.. blame the player community in open that made it that way..

 

[Leeric]

As someone who is new to the game and franchise here is what I think.

When I first started playing I didn't know what I was doing at all. I watched some videos and did the tutorials. So I jumped into open, within the first hour of playing someone killed me when I had hardly any cargo. I died a few times but the starting ship was free and my upgrades weren't that great. Okay...so I kept playing in open got a Cobra and almost every time I went to run trade routes missions etc again I kept getting pirated. Once I died and didn't have enough money for insurance, I went to solo, and at this time I was just trying to figure out what was going on. I could hardly even dock without issues yet nearly every time in open some pirate "demanded cargo" when I hardly had any of significant value to begin with. And hardly any money. It was pretty obvious from my flying and my ship that I wasn't that great, but it didn't stop those commanders. One person I escaped from or he let me go but still managed to get most of my cargo. I was failing nearly every mission and I still don't understand most things in the game.
If it wouldn't have been such a rough start I would have stayed in open, but I got tired of not making any money on trade/smuggling missions because of other players, and that was the only thing I really knew how to do. The time it took for me to go to the Sidewinder to the Cobra was awhile because of those issues, once I switched to open I got an ASP much quicker even though it was much more money.

So really the only people to blame are those pirates who thought it would be fun to harass someone who clearly didn't have much of a clue what they were doing. Ill probably go back to open at some point once I understand the game better, but I won't risk my fun just because someone else thinks its fun to harass the noobs. And I imagine those who are against it don't understand because they are use to playing these type of games.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I think it is crappy people jumping in to hit traders and refusing to be the prey.. but I feel the same for those who stay in open and are never prey, but still why do you care if someone is pvping (not going after traders as that is pvp but not really vs.. more of PvV player vs victim) and made the money for their ship elsewhere? Fairness? If people are worried about fairness.. they ...wouldn't ... be .. going.. after... traders.. in.. the ..first.. place.


As for traders turning pirate and bounty hunting... it brings back a saying "If you can't beat em, join em" Do you really think those who trade in open and are victimized should not give it up and pirate themselves?

If Open is a plethora of combat professions and not all.. don't blame the modes or the switching.. blame the player community in open that made it that way..

No matter the profession in pvp someone is always eventually the prey. I pirate most of the time (the exception being when I do some pve piracy) but I'm not always the predator. I get attacked by ships that are better and die somewhat regularly. The way the system is supposed to work is, pirates prey on traders, bounty hunters prey on pirates, Imo we're missing a bunch of features for traders to hire and sic bounty hunters on pirates.

As I said, I don't have a problem with traders joining the pirate's rank or hunting them. The problem comes if they use solo to fund those careers.

I blame the mode because, we are as frontier made us. They set up their current system, and we adapt to it. Not the other way around.

Edit: I'm just going to say this to clear up any confusion. I don't have a problem with solo or group, in theory. I even bought into the game expecting to only play offline solo. I honestly only hate how they interact with each other.

 

[LetoAtreides2]

If Open is a plethora of combat professions and not all.. don't blame the modes or the switching.. blame the player community in open that made it that way..

I should write a book about the stuff that white-knights spout on these forums. "Blame the community - not the broken game" might very well be the first chapter.

 

[Mouse]

No matter the profession in pvp someone is always eventually the prey. I pirate most of the time (the exception being when I do some pve piracy) but I'm not always the predator. I get attacked by ships that are better and die somewhat regularly. The way the system is supposed to work is, pirates prey on traders, bounty hunters prey on pirates, Imo we're missing a bunch of features for traders to hire and sic bounty hunters on pirates.

As I said, I don't have a problem with traders joining the pirate's rank or hunting them. The problem comes if they use solo to fund those careers.

I blame the mode because, we are as frontier made us. They set up their current system, and we adapt to it. Not the other way around.

Against a bounty hunter you have a chance, traders do not against pirates.


You hate using solo to fund careers.. really still haven't answered why, but blame the PVPers doing it not the mode



You blaming the mode is like getting a ticket for going 110 in a 55 and then blaming the car because it is capable of such high speeds. It is deflecting the blame to the mechanics of the game verses where it belongs on those who made the conscious decision to abuse those mechanics.

 

[Mohrgan]

As someone who is new to the game and franchise here is what I think.

When I first started playing I didn't know what I was doing at all. I watched some videos and did the tutorials. So I jumped into open, within the first hour of playing someone killed me when I had hardly any cargo. I died a few times but the starting ship was free and my upgrades weren't that great. Okay...so I kept playing in open got a Cobra and almost every time I went to run trade routes missions etc again I kept getting pirated. Once I died and didn't have enough money for insurance, I went to solo, and at this time I was just trying to figure out what was going on. I could hardly even dock without issues yet nearly every time in open some pirate "demanded cargo" when I hardly had any of significant value to begin with. And hardly any money. It was pretty obvious from my flying and my ship that I wasn't that great, but it didn't stop those commanders. One person I escaped from or he let me go but still managed to get most of my cargo. I was failing nearly every mission and I still don't understand most things in the game.
If it wouldn't have been such a rough start I would have stayed in open, but I got tired of not making any money on trade/smuggling missions because of other players, and that was the only thing I really knew how to do. The time it took for me to go to the Sidewinder to the Cobra was awhile because of those issues, once I switched to open I got an ASP much quicker even though it was much more money.

So really the only people to blame are those pirates who thought it would be fun to harass someone who clearly didn't have much of a clue what they were doing. Ill probably go back to open at some point once I understand the game better, but I won't risk my fun just because someone else thinks its fun to harass the noobs. And I imagine those who are against it don't understand because they are use to playing these type of games.

If you knew of a middle ground, would you have been interested? If you could have found an environment that let you learn the ropes without having it wrapped around your throat, would you have preferred that? Post and tell your tale in the Open-PvE thread. I believe it will help that discussion as well.

 

[Mouse]

I should write a book about the stuff that white-knights spout on these forums. "Blame the community - not the broken game" might very well be the first chapter.

You have to lay blame where the fault is, not try and deflect it... the game is not broken, it is working as intended... so if that is so.. where could the blame fall.. oh on those in the community who made conscious decisions that resulted in where we are today..

 

[Julissa Silver]

I should write a book about the stuff that white-knights spout on these forums. "Blame the community - not the broken game" might very well be the first chapter.

I'm sure you'll have a best-seller on your hands. Off you go now, stop wasting your time here and get on with that book!

 

[LetoAtreides2]

You have to lay blame where the fault is, not try and deflect it... the game is not broken, it is working as intended... so if that is so.. where could the blame fall.. oh on those in the community who made conscious decisions that resulted in where we are today..

Like what?

 

[Mouse]

As someone who is new to the game and franchise here is what I think.

When I first started playing I didn't know what I was doing at all. I watched some videos and did the tutorials. So I jumped into open, within the first hour of playing someone killed me when I had hardly any cargo. I died a few times but the starting ship was free and my upgrades weren't that great. Okay...so I kept playing in open got a Cobra and almost every time I went to run trade routes missions etc again I kept getting pirated. Once I died and didn't have enough money for insurance, I went to solo, and at this time I was just trying to figure out what was going on. I could hardly even dock without issues yet nearly every time in open some pirate "demanded cargo" when I hardly had any of significant value to begin with. And hardly any money. It was pretty obvious from my flying and my ship that I wasn't that great, but it didn't stop those commanders. One person I escaped from or he let me go but still managed to get most of my cargo. I was failing nearly every mission and I still don't understand most things in the game.
If it wouldn't have been such a rough start I would have stayed in open, but I got tired of not making any money on trade/smuggling missions because of other players, and that was the only thing I really knew how to do. The time it took for me to go to the Sidewinder to the Cobra was awhile because of those issues, once I switched to open I got an ASP much quicker even though it was much more money.

So really the only people to blame are those pirates who thought it would be fun to harass someone who clearly didn't have much of a clue what they were doing. Ill probably go back to open at some point once I understand the game better, but I won't risk my fun just because someone else thinks its fun to harass the noobs. And I imagine those who are against it don't understand because they are use to playing these type of games.

I'm sorry that happened to you. If you don't want to fly solo and have a community to help you, those of us in Mobius are willing to help and answer questions and have a PVE group you can fly in. http://elitepve.com/

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Like what?

that is what I am interested in as well.. you said the game is broken... where is there any evidence beyond Opinions... now looking through posts for evidence.. "Leaving open because of griefing or constant pirating" posts and threads pop up over and over and over again...

 

[Mohrgan]

I blame the mode because, we are as frontier made us. They set up their current system, and we adapt to it. Not the other way around.

So, why don't you adapt? Use the system as you insist others do. It's all available to you just as it is to others. A clever pilot like you should be able to compete. Elite is the playing field, not the individual modes. You can balance the modes yourself. What is stopping you?

 

[Darth Ender]

I blame the modes for offering a path of least resistance for the player. Now, players with dignity would choose not to take the path of least Resistance just because it's there but it's obvious most players dont have that kind of self control.

killing players who just want to stroll around without weapons and trade is not grounds for the community being labeled as bad. You want to refuse to be prey, you get better at defending yourself or avoiding trouble. When your answer to that is to jump to solo you've only reinforced why it is an option that should be removed (the hot swapping a single cmdr, not in general).

It's not about caring about where someone gets credits. It's about taking any kind of emergent gameplay that occurs in open, and being able to undermine it via game modes rather than your own emergent gameplay. What would be better? A group of traders forming i means to protect a trade route from traders and pirates etc actively trying to break through that group in a real in-game struggle OR running scared into solo and playing by yourself while the only emergent gameplay ED is then offering is rinse and repeat. This is true for any kind of emergent gameplay, protecting your faction, making war against a neighboring one. Having groups of players ally against others or make trade agreements - all manner of gameplay (not just hostile type) that devolves into single player because it's easier to play that way.

It's not the community that causes this, it's the easy way out that does. There's still plenty of players that choose not to combat log, jump to solo whenever it gets rough, but those kind of players make up a small portion of any game's player base. The majority will always be those looking for the fastest - easiest way to max their character/game.

The game isn't going to die out because of how it currently behaves. I'm not arguing that Solo will drive the game into disuse. Just that the game's potential is so much more as a sandbox game that it is, if its multiplayer mode isn't two clicks away from being circumvented whenever you find conflict. Any actual positive reason for needing to jump modes with a commander is countered by a much greater negative by bleeding the only thing the game is offering - which is emergent gameplay. There is no narrative, no story mode, no branching missions and campaigns.

You either have emergent mostly-player driven gameplay or you have absolutely nothing to do but repeat the same exact tasks over and over for nothing and nobody but yourself in a game that wont recognize or remember your participation. The former is why ED stands out amongst the other games in this genre. It doesn't stand out by being a single player sandbox, and as far as that goes it's not even interesting as one.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Against a bounty hunter you have a chance, traders do not against pirates.

I'm not going to argue that pirate ships don't have an easier time escaping, but traders do not have zero chance of escaping. Unless you're seriously outmatched, you usually have a decent chance of escaping, uf you're well equipped.

You hate using solo to fund careers.. really still haven't answered why, but blame the PVPers doing it not the mode

I hate it because it's unbalanced, or messes with the balance of open. I've said that a few times. Is that answer not enough?

You blaming the mode is like getting a ticket for going 110 in a 55 and then blaming the car because it is capable of such high speeds. It is deflecting the blame to the mechanics of the game verses where it belongs on those who made the conscious decision to abuse those mechanics.

imo It's more like blaming the city for giving you a parking ticket when they didn't have any signs up.

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So, why don't you adapt? Use the system as you insist others do. It's all available to you just as it is to others. A clever pilot like you should be able to compete. Elite is the playing field, not the individual modes. You can balance the modes yourself. What is stopping you?

Because there's nothing to adapt to, we already have the path of least resistance. I can use it if I want, but I don't want.

 

[Mohrgan]

I blame the modes for offering a path of least resistance for the player. Now, players with dignity would choose not to take the path of least Resistance just because it's there but it's obvious most players dont have that kind of self control.

<snipped for brevity>

You either have emergent mostly-player driven gameplay or you have absolutely nothing to do but repeat the same exact tasks over and over for nothing and nobody but yourself in a game that wont recognize or remember your participation. The former is why ED stands out amongst the other games in this genre. It doesn't stand out by being a single player sandbox, and as far as that goes it's not even interesting as one.

Most of what you say is not true. Private groups offer all of the emergent play you mention, often without PvP. Emergent does not mean direct combat. Look at the Fuel Rats. They are a perfect example of emergent, without combat.

Your post suggests that your personal gamer ethics are more important than those of any other player. Why should anyone have to be shouldered with your views? Take what you like from the game, and leave others to do the same. That could settle the debate once and for all.

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Because there's nothing to adapt to, we already have the path of least resistance. I can use it if I want, but I don't want.

So, once again it comes down, not to game mechanics, but your personal gamer ethics. Why should anyone have to be shackled to the restrictions you place upon yourself?

 

[Mouse]

I'm not going to argue that pirate ships don't have an easier time escaping, but traders do not have zero chance of escaping. Unless you're seriously outmatched, you usually have a decent chance of escaping, uf you're well equipped.

Search back a few pages and you will find someone who was dead before they even got their scanners up from being interdicted... real good decent chance there.. oh they left to solo after that.

I hate it because it's unbalanced, or messes with the balance of open. I've said that a few times. Is that answer not enough?

You yourself said that people pirated too many times, even if pirated by people like you who do it with some rp and honor will leave open.. you want to talk about balance .. it isn't solo's fault.. a few pirates vs # of traders is balance.. currently there is no balance in open.. that isn't solos or those who go to it's fault.

imo It's more like blaming the city for giving you a parking ticket when they didn't have any signs up.

I guess those killing everyone in starter areas never noticed the "slow down children at play" signs up in the systems..

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Because there's nothing to adapt to, we already have the path of least resistance. I can use it if I want, but I don't want.

You don't and that is commendable, those that are doing are giving open a black eye... again.. don't blame solo or groups..

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I blame the modes for offering a path of least resistance for the player. Now, players with dignity would choose not to take the path of least Resistance just because it's there but it's obvious most players dont have that kind of self control.

killing players who just want to stroll around without weapons and trade is not grounds for the community being labeled as bad. You want to refuse to be prey, you get better at defending yourself or avoiding trouble. When your answer to that is to jump to solo you've only reinforced why it is an option that should be removed (the hot swapping a single cmdr, not in general).

I wholeheartedly agree. It's imo a failing of the game when switching modes become the way a lot of players deal with problem players. I don't think FD ever intended mode switching to be used as The way players deal with other players, just one of the ways.

 

[Mouse]

I wholeheartedly agree. It's imo a failing of the game when switching modes become the way a lot of players deal with problem players. I don't think FD ever intended mode switching to be used as The way players deal with other players, just one of the ways.

it is not a failing except for those that try and abuse the system... but it seems they abuse both the switching and the PVP systems.. but people want to blame the system no those who are abusing