Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Roybe]

I agree the rewards should be increased, but would this not be construed by many as encouraging griefing? They need to do it in a clever manner, so the rewards for getting bad players is greatly increased, People can still be bad, and that is good (lol), but they will have to pay the price. I am not interested in joining their ranks, I just want them in my universe. And I want to be able to cash in on their frustration

Again...my point is, past personal gratification of causing someone harm, why bother?

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Again...my point is, past personal gratification of causing someone harm, why bother?

What is wrong with being gratified by killing a player pirate in Open play? Nothing wrong with getting kicks from PvP encounters. If it is against your personal philosophy or something then that is up to you. The game fully supports my ability to track a player, hunt them, fight them and kill them. If you get no joy from personal combat, then do not do it. I do..

 

[Roybe]

What is wrong with being gratified by killing a player pirate in Open play? Nothing wrong with getting kicks from PvP encounters. If it is against your personal philosophy or something then that is up to you. The game fully supports my ability to track a player, hunt them, fight them and kill them. If you get no joy from personal combat, then do not do it. I do..

The problem, as I see it, really is the motivation behind killing a real player. If a game is based on PVP, then PVP is rewarded. If a game is based on PVE, then PVE is rewarded. This game has been designed to prevent PVP from occurring, by failing to provide those killed, and those killing, with supportive rewards for playing this way. Thus, it is, at its heart a PVE game. As the PVP player base has pushed their play style...they find themselves with few, if any people to play against.

There are many things that COULD be done to pay people for their losses against PVP people...but both the devs, and the community, will not embrace these...for various reasons. At that point, I am stating the PVP part of the game is a sham...with the final nail in the coffin by the devs realizing the only way to support PVP was to create an arena mode. Remove friendly fire from the game at this point and let risk averse players have an actual choice to play with others or not.

I know I am a single voice in the wilderness on this issue, and I honestly do not expect this change to occur, however, people should realize there is no real reason for PVP to occur in this game, other than for 'the feels'...and most people do not get good 'feels' from these interactions. Maybe if PVP players could change their motivations..or PVE players accept those motivations...things would be acceptable...but, having played games for over 30 years...this will not occur.

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What is wrong with being gratified by killing a player pirate in Open play? Nothing wrong with getting kicks from PvP encounters. If it is against your personal philosophy or something then that is up to you. The game fully supports my ability to track a player, hunt them, fight them and kill them. If you get no joy from personal combat, then do not do it. I do..

Actually, it doesn't support you hunting them down. They can drop to private mode and you will never find them...again, you are just wasting your time.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

The problem, as I see it, really is the motivation behind killing a real player. If a game is based on PVP, then PVP is rewarded. If a game is based on PVE, then PVE is rewarded. This game has been designed to prevent PVP from occurring, by failing to provide those killed, and those killing, with supportive rewards for playing this way. Thus, it is, at its heart a PVE game. As the PVP player base has pushed their play style...they find themselves with few, if any people to play against.

There are many things that COULD be done to pay people for their losses against PVP people...but both the devs, and the community, will not embrace these...for various reasons. At that point, I am stating the PVP part of the game is a sham...with the final nail in the coffin by the devs realizing the only way to support PVP was to create an arena mode. Remove friendly fire from the game at this point and let risk averse players have an actual choice to play with others or not.

I know I am a single voice in the wilderness on this issue, and I honestly do not expect this change to occur, however, people should realize there is no real reason for PVP to occur in this game, other than for 'the feels'...and most people do not get good 'feels' from these interactions. Maybe if PVP players could change their motivations..or PVE players accept those motivations...things would be acceptable...but, having played games for over 30 years...this will not occur.

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Actually, it doesn't support you hunting them down. They can drop to private mode and you will never find them...again, you are just wasting your time.

All of the players I have encountered have never done that. They seem honorable enough not to do so MAy also be worth adding that just because you get nothing out of PvP, does not mean that it adds nothing to the game. You can wrangle your definition of "supported" all night, but at least I know FD frown upon people who exit combat with other players, and they have done nothing to hinder my attempts at PvP. So your assertion that I am "wasting" my time is based on the false premise that the targets I am attacking are dishonorable enough to duck into private whilst I am interdicting them As it stands, PvP is going nowhere is it? It is also kind of funny you talk about "feels" in such a way, given we are all playing a giant beautiful simulation of the universe. There is more to this game than just credits, merits and numbers. I am at least thankful that I am able to enjoy these fantastic aspects FD have provided us. Open Play is amazing, and now we are getting player factions it will be even better. Just a reminder as well, risk averse players have two other game modes, to enable them to avoid risk. Perhaps if they put a warning on open play, it may be less of a problem. Kind of like a trigger warning, in case people were under the misapprehension that PvP was not a supported aspect of the game.

 

[Scudmungus]

All of the players I have encountered have never done that.

Can yuh speak truth an claim dat aal of de players yuh gonna meet from now unto eva a neva, eva, gonna do it?

Dat de mechanics wi gat nat makin it impossible now?

An den?

Dat wid time, yuh 'neva' a 'eva' might change som?

HA!

 

[Roybe]

All of the players I have encountered have never done that. They seem honorable enough not to do so MAy also be worth adding that just because you get nothing out of PvP, does not mean that it adds nothing to the game. You can wrangle your definition of "supported" all night, but at least I know FD frown upon people who exit combat with other players, and they have done nothing to hinder my attempts at PvP. So your assertion that I am "wasting" my time is based on the false premise that the targets I am attacking are dishonorable enough to duck into private whilst I am interdicting them As it stands, PvP is going nowhere is it? It is also kind of funny you talk about "feels" in such a way, given we are all playing a giant beautiful simulation of the universe. There is more to this game than just credits, merits and numbers. I am at least thankful that I am able to enjoy these fantastic aspects FD have provided us. Open Play is amazing, and now we are getting player factions it will be even better. Just a reminder as well, risk averse players have two other game modes, to enable them to avoid risk. Perhaps if they put a warning on open play, it may be less of a problem. Kind of like a trigger warning, in case people were under the misapprehension that PvP was not a supported aspect of the game.

When a PVP player can support themselves entirely through their actions of killing other players...I will consider it more than window dressing and something trivial. I see less and less PVP which means it adds less and less to the galaxy at large. As these encounters become even more rare with the introduction of CQC...and possibly more disturbing to those that do get caught...I see this as more detriment than additive to the galaxy as a whole...and the consideration of removal of PVP from the game more entertained by the population of the community. The request for a PVE mode is significant in this discussion as there appears to be a strong desire within the community for this type of play. I do not wish this to occur as meeting players in Open is enjoyable...but the attraction of a PVE mode to so many would mean that many would play in PVE mode to meet folks, since the numbers in such a mode would far outweigh the numbers in a PVP Mode.

If a PVE mode is being seriously considered...then Open should be PVE only with no PVP available.

 

[Imperial Guard]

Some thoughts to add to the conversation.

Reward for PVP exists.
Real Players have bounties on them, therefore you can scan them, kill them and collect the bounty.
Real players also carry cargo that you can steal and sell.

When you are in the stations, you can see the "top local CMDR bounties" often worth millions
Prepare for disappointment... the CMDRs listed there only play in SOLO mode, so you will never encounter any of them .

Playing in Solo is effectively a permanent shadow ban.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

When a PVP player can support themselves entirely through their actions of killing other players...I will consider it more than window dressing and something trivial. I see less and less PVP which means it adds less and less to the galaxy at large. As these encounters become even more rare with the introduction of CQC...and possibly more disturbing to those that do get caught...I see this as more detriment than additive to the galaxy as a whole...and the consideration of removal of PVP from the game more entertained by the population of the community. The request for a PVE mode is significant in this discussion as there appears to be a strong desire within the community for this type of play. I do not wish this to occur as meeting players in Open is enjoyable...but the attraction of a PVE mode to so many would mean that many would play in PVE mode to meet folks, since the numbers in such a mode would far outweigh the numbers in a PVP Mode.

If a PVE mode is being seriously considered...then Open should be PVE only with not PVP available.

"When a PVP player can support themselves entirely through their actions of killing other players...I will consider it more than window dressing and something trivial"

So hang you. For something to be considered "supported" or "non trivial", the player will have to sustain themselves through that means alone? This is illogical, as there are many aspects to this game that are rewarding and integral, yet are divorced from the credit earning procedure. It seems to be you are in the minority of players who see this as merely some sort of numbers game. Good for you though, play it your way! PvP adds lots to the game, as long as you play in Open. If you don't, then I don't see what your issue is. Open play is not going PvE at all, and they are not going to reduce PvP to CQC only. No one supports this, literally. I mean, others on here want a PvE mode, I can understand that. They make valid points, and I have conceded to some of them. It appears you want a massive game change to be made based on your VERY subjective view. For the final time, (as I have some players to take care of) Player versus Player combat is Working As Intended. It is an integral part of open play. Asking for the removal of a game mode that thousands play, but you do not, is somewhat selfish in my opinion. It seems one of the fundamental aspects of open play is being "detrimental" to you sense of enjoyment, as you have previously stated. This is really unfortunate, but I doubt the whole game is going to change because of this. If it really is that harmful to you, then solo/private/moebius are valid options. Having PvP removed from the game is not. Also, there have been no mention for "serious consideration of PvE mode" from the devs, one of the moderators confirmed this earlier..., let alone the removal of PvP.

 

[DarkWalker]

If you go into Open, you consent to this kind of interaction, as the game stands right now. Until the day FD punish someone for interdicting and attacking another player in open, any other assessment of the situation is simply invalid.

As long as there is any other reason to enter into Open than PvP then logging into Open can never be considered as consenting to PvP.

"because I've never played in Open" - Yet not a few posts ago you claim to have a special device to kick people out of your instance when you go into open. Hmm, nice try but not buying it

Forced de-sync. There were reports of players using it at least since Beta, the result is to send each player into his own separate instance. You can find ready made scripts to do it in 5 minutes with Google, and if you understand how this game's peer to peer networking works and don't need a refresher on firewall commands you can make a working proof of concept in the same time.

How? Did people threaten to come destroy you in Open? Anyway, if you don;t want to play with them then don't. FD gave you the game modes to avoid this.

People thinking they are entitled to force everyone else to play with them did that. I won't be playing with anyone that thinks forcing others into PvP is acceptable. I used to kick people that thought like that out of my old raiding group, after all. Well, not just me; my guild at the time was basically a PvE-only guild of players that were stuck in a PvP realm and refused to spend the money to transfer their characters elsewhere, so anyone starting non-consensual PvP was certainly not welcome.

Also, I disagree that the currently available modes are enough. The game lacks a true PvE mode that isn't Solo, and Mobius, while a great and worthy effort, doesn't fully solve that need. Without that, many players that would prefer to be playing PvE with others will end instead in Solo, which drastically increases segregation and is bad for the game as a whole.

Oh wow, so you admit that if FD ever made a benefit to playing in Open (like say they did with the Nvidia Open only competition), you would be happy to use your external tools to ban other players? Again, I will say, I am disappointed you would admit to such behavior.

Of course. I got this game under the promise that I would have full control over who I play with, and by whichever ways needed I will have full control over who I play with. But then, the fact I don't trust Frontier since the removal of the offline mode, and that I will likely need about a decade to trust them again, has much to do with why I'm this bitter with them and willing to, if needed, break any rules they lay down in order to secure the game I was promised.

I hope this is never needed, that Frontier doesn't break any more promises, but, well, I don't trust them.

 

[Roybe]

Some thoughts to add to the conversation.

Reward for PVP exists.
Real Players have bounties on them, therefore you can scan them, kill them and collect the bounty.

When you are in the stations, you can see the "top local CMDR bounties" often worth millions
Prepare for disappointment... the CMDRs listed there only play in SOLO mode, so you will never encounter any of them .

Playing in Solo is effectively a permanent shadow ban.

And the problem with bounties for those that you collect...the dead have to not only rebuy their ship..they also lose their cargo, AND they have to pay back any legacy fines and bounties to the authorities BEFORE they can recover their ship. Where is the good part of fighting against someone and losing?

My question is 'How do you find one of those juicy bounties?' I guess you could ask for them to friend you. If someone wants to show me how easy it is to find someone...put up a vid of you hunting down Logoffsky.

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"When a PVP player can support themselves entirely through their actions of killing other players...I will consider it more than window dressing and something trivial"

So hang you. For something to be considered "supported" or "non trivial", the player will have to sustain themselves through that means alone? This is illogical, as there are many aspects to this game that are rewarding and integral, yet are divorced from the credit earning procedure. It seems to be you are in the minority of players who see this as merely some sort of numbers game. Good for you though, play it your way! PvP adds lots to the game, as long as you play in Open. If you don't, then I don't see what your issue is. Open play is not going PvE at all, and they are not going to reduce PvP to CQC only. No one supports this, literally. I mean, others on here want a PvE mode, I can understand that. They make valid points, and I have conceded to some of them. It appears you want a massive game change to be made based on your VERY subjective view. For the final time, (as I have some players to take care of) Player versus Player combat is Working As Intended. It is an integral part of open play. Asking for the removal of a game mode that thousands play, but you do not, is somewhat selfish in my opinion. It seems one of the fundamental aspects of open play is being "detrimental" to you sense of enjoyment, as you have previously stated. This is really unfortunate, but I doubt the whole game is going to change because of this. If it really is that harmful to you, then solo/private/moebius are valid options. Having PvP removed from the game is not. Also, there have been no mention for "serious consideration of PvE mode" from the devs, one of the moderators confirmed this earlier..., let alone the removal of PvP.

Ok..so there we have it. There are no other roles in this game that are divorced from the credit earning process EXCEPT PVP. So, yes, that is my criteria. CQC provides a person a living..so...yeah, there's your true support.

I have stated why a PVE mode is bad for the game...but, honestly, it would kill Open any way, so whatever, PVP dies either way.

 

[DarkWalker]

Prepare for disappointment... the CMDRs listed there only play in SOLO mode, so you will never encounter any of them .

In most games that offers that option the players playing solo outnumber the players seeking to play with others, often by a considerable amount. So, it's only natural that some random list of players will have many, or most, of the listed players in Solo.

 

[Roybe]

In most games that offers that option the players playing solo outnumber the players seeking to play with others, often by a considerable amount. So, it's only natural that some random list of players will have many, or most, of the listed players in Solo.

And here's WHY PVP is not worth the time or effort!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=181014&p=2787221&viewfull=1#post2787221


Try to do that PVP, only!

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

And the problem with bounties for those that you collect...the dead have to not only rebuy their ship..they also lose their cargo, AND they have to pay back any legacy fines and bounties to the authorities BEFORE they can recover their ship. Where is the good part of fighting against someone and losing?

My question is 'How do you find one of those juicy bounties?' I guess you could ask for them to friend you. If someone wants to show me how easy it is to find someone...put up a vid of you hunting down Logoffsky.

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Ok..so there we have it. There are no other roles in this game that are divorced from the credit earning process EXCEPT PVP. So, yes, that is my criteria. CQC provides a person a living..so...yeah, there's your true support.

I have stated why a PVE mode is bad for the game...but, honestly, it would kill Open any way, so whatever, PVP dies either way.

I think you miss the point entirely I just find it funny now how you can actually pretend PvP is not a part of the game for people, or that the development team don;t support it because a commander cannot make money from it alone. But good luck with convincing them to remove PvP alltogether.

 

[Roybe]

I think you miss the point entirely I just find it funny now how you can actually pretend PvP is not a part of the game for people, or that the development team don;t support it because a commander cannot make money from it alone. But good luck with convincing them to remove PvP alltogether.

If they add a PVE only mode...it will have the same outcome.

Again...when PVP can make credits like the post above..I will consider it supported...I mean come on..that IS bounty hunting...one of the main reasons people keep saying they PVP.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

And here's WHY PVP is not worth the time or effort!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=181014&p=2787221&viewfull=1#post2787221


Try to do that PVP, only!

Wow, the spoils of a thrilling and riveting evening farming in a res zone, an unrealistic representation of an extraction operation, designed specifically so players can farm high levels of gold in a short space of time without much risk. Yeah, you cant get that kind of "experience" from PvP lol...

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If they add a PVE only mode...it will have the same outcome.

Again...when PVP can make credits like the post above..I will consider it supported...I mean come on..that IS bounty hunting...one of the main reasons people keep saying they PVP.

When PvE can provide the excitement of PvP, I will consider it a decent way to play. But in the meantime you can pretend it is not supported I call that farming m not bounty hunting. Killing a thousand ships in four hours in the same confined space..

 

[Imperial Guard]

And the problem with bounties for those that you collect...the dead have to not only rebuy their ship..they also lose their cargo, AND they have to pay back any legacy fines and bounties to the authorities BEFORE they can recover their ship. Where is the good part of fighting against someone and losing?
.

Same scenario if they accidently boost into the space dock wall or fly into an asteroid and blow themselves up.
The good part is the adrenalin rush, the experience and learning from it so you do better next time.
Its so easy to escape in ED, that chances are you can high wake out most of the time.

Just because somebody pulls you over and steals your cargo doesn't mean that they will necessarily kill you. Stand and deliver.

If short on funds you can always take part in a GC, go do some exploration, trading and resource site stuff etc to build up a bit of cash again.

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But what if there is another CMDR at the resource site I go to ?
You have several options

Wing up with them and share the proceeds.
Intimidate / Shoo them away.
Kill them.
Or go to another res site / system

Its not like there aren't a bazillion systems.

 

[Roybe]

Wow, the spoils of a thrilling and riveting evening farming in a res zone, an unrealistic representation of an extraction operation, designed specifically so players can farm high levels of gold in a short space of time without much risk. Yeah, you cant get that kind of "experience" from PvP lol...

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When PvE can provide the excitement of PvP, I will consider it a decent way to play. But in the meantime you can pretend it is not supported I call that farming m not bounty hunting. Killing a thousand ships in four hours in the same confined space..

Same scenario if they accidently boost into the space dock wall or fly into an asteroid and blow themselves up.
The good part is the adrenalin rush, the experience and learning from it so you do better next time.
Its so easy to escape in ED, that chances are you can high wake out most of the time.

Just because somebody pulls you over and steals your cargo doesn't mean that they will necessarily kill you. Stand and deliver.

If short on funds you can always take part in a GC, go do some exploration, trading and resource site stuff etc to build up a bit of cash again.

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But what if there is another CMDR at the resource site I go to ?
You have several options

Wing up with them and share the proceeds.
Intimidate / Shoo them away.
Kill them.
Or go to another res site / system

Its not like there aren't a bazillion systems.

Good luck guys! Have fun! Find who you can and kill what you can. We agree on so much...but we see vastly different futures. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

One last thing to consider....how would a PVP centric group become a Power in the galaxy? Without doing any PVE or PVE based CG's?

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Good luck guys! Have fun! Find who you can and kill what you can. We agree on so much...but we see vastly different futures. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

One last thing to consider....how would a PVP centric group become a Power in the galaxy? Without doing any PVE or PVE based CG's?

I dont see why someone who engages in PvP can not also do the other goals as well, the propositions are not mutually exclusive. I myself said I wanted a dynamic universe, not one where each activity takes place in separate game worlds.

 

[Roybe]

I dont see why someone who engages in PvP can not also do the other goals as well, the propositions are not mutually exclusive. I myself said I wanted a dynamic universe, not one where each activity takes place in separate game worlds.

There is no reason...but if you want to do anything within the game you HAVE to PVE. The difference between allowed and supported...once more.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

There is no reason...but if you want to do anything within the game you HAVE to PVE. The difference between allowed and supported...once more.

If you wish to continue with the fantastic notion that FD do not support PvP interaction, by twisting the definition of the word "support" to include all kinds of criteria only personal to you, then there is no need to go on trying to convince me you are correct. You can believe that if you want to. It is easy to falsify your claim through honest objective means, but not so much if you wish to retain an unreasonable position. They have included it in the game, it is not forbidden, it is a part of powerplay denial (for those who wish to engage). I pointed out earlier, some players play this for the experience it gives, not just so they can look at a big number after farming in a zone all night.