Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…There are, however, those who use Solo as an exploit (for want of a better term). I have read comments from commanders in the forums that basically come down to, "I was in Open. Got into a fight. Started losing. No worries. Log off. Log into Solo. You can't find me now!" It's possibly players who do this that are tainting the reputation of legitimate Solo players.
….

And what exactly would be the difference in outcome if the player log out and goes into the kitchen to make a tea or coffee, then reads a bit in the forum makes a comment about Solo vs. Open and after 30 minutes logs in again? The other player wouldn't know the difference.

What if a CMDR is in a fight, starts losing, jumps to the next system, drops into normal space, waits a few minutes and then jumps to an other system. The other CMDR will probably never find the first CMDR. And that is not considering instancing.

Yesterday I had a fight with an other CMDR (obviously in Open Mode and btw: 07 to that CMDR) after the fight I went to the station and logged off - why? Because it was late and I had to go to bed. Did I use an "exploit" because I probably refused that CMDR a revenge?

Short: the problem in your example isn't mode switching. The problem is some strange idea of "honor". Fight goes wrong, CMDR flees - end of story in my opinion. What that CMDR does after logging out is completely irrelevant.


And since you mentioned "legitimate Solo players" - what exactly is that? Mode switching turns all players into legitimate Solo, private Group and Open Mode players. Or in other words: There is not such thing as a legit Solo/Group/Open player - there are only players.

(Just to be sure, this is not about combat logging, that is an other problem not related to mode switching)

 

[Daffan]

Good and bad is subjective. You see antagonistic gameplay as good, interesting; I see it as bad, somewhere between boring and frustrating. By the same token, you seem to perceive objective-less solo games as boring; I see many of them, including the early objective-less space sims, as quite engaging.

BTW, the quality of the emergent gameplay depends more on those that are playing than on the devs. You can even have very good emergent gameplay without a game to serve as the basis; I've seen fantastic roleplaying games played over a basic forum or chat room, with no gaming oriented features worth mentioning.



Apart from non-consensual PvP, yep, you can find it all, including unexpected gameplay. You can even find some unexpected (though agreed upon) PvP in Mobius, in the conflict zones. Though, of course, Mobius is not for those that believe the game to be boring without the chance of random player attacks or the opportunity to attack unsuspecting players anywhere.


"Few and far between" is still too much for me and many others. I won't open myself to any kind of non-consensual PvP, specially piracy. And this game, with the early promise to allow players to choose who we would allow to play with us, was explicitly advertised and sold to players like me.

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Not really. It's just a variation of the "other players are my content" argument that surfaces from time to time. I clearly remember someone a while ago even providing a quote of how much he would charge to be content for the PvPers

Basic forum and basic chat room had other players, that's my point exactly.

You aren't in a room by yourself making up a game.

In fact that is the basis for my whole argument, and you just walked right into it. Need other players that are unscripted, unique and different to create emergent gameplay other than scripted AI sequences.

I've brought this up in all 3 megas, the only real answer I was given really did explain a lot;

Spoiler

Because it is too hard to do and manage, so no one wants to be the one to do it - though no one objects to someone else doing it.....

Because if you wanted an arena game, that's how you do it.

The problem is, that FD want to encourage players to kill in the game, whether it be NPCs or other players. The main ranking is combat... If they start to punish player killers, they will effectively kill off PvP. A pirate would have no leverage over a trader, because the trader knows that the pirate will have to kill them to get cargo, and will then be severely punished. Getting the balance right would be a nightmare IMO, you either make it something that is not done, or you do as FD have done and make the punishment trivial.


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It wont kill off PvP

Nobody actually like ganking new players in Eravate or traders long term. If they do they are noob pvpers doing it for teh lulz

proper pvp is power play pvp, cz pvp, nav/res pvp. Not spawn camping someone in Eravate. There wouldn't be penalties for killing people of other factions, it's logical. PowerPlay pvp is consensual, your joining an army..

I'l just take a cheap example from UO. Everyone was blue, nobody attacked each other (until later everyone had a player house they needed no more banks) - if you saw a grey you were hesitant and if you saw a red, every blue would pile him even other reds. How u get red? Murder - Elite is like, YO bro you just ganked 50 sidewinders? lol who cares enjoy - Hence every trader and new player gets dogpiled for cheap laughs.

oh god its you again...give it a rest would you?

No i enjoy this

and then I get smug thinking about going to Eravate and have fun afterwards like a victory parade. Hell march!

 

[Jockey79]

Need other players that are unscripted, unique and different to create emergent gameplay other than scripted AI sequences.

And you have that, with other people who want the same as you. With open mode, right now.
So what is it exactly you want? As what you just asked for is in game right now.

Because if you wanted an arena game, that's how you do it.

So you don't think traders would log in to a PvP group?
So you don't think explorers would log in to a PvP group?

Because both types log in to open now, the only way you'd know for sure is to make a PvP group and see who signs up.
After all, CQC is there for arena style fighting - so you may get something new or different.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

They did also mention tracking limpets - that * could be made to follow someone into solo!

*Usual Sandro caveats apply

That sounds pretty awesome, as long as they dont wimp out, and they make it usable for all roles against all players.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Nobody actually like ganking new players in Eravate or traders long term. If they do they are noob pvpers doing it for teh lulz

And you base this on ...?

as long as they dont wimp out and they make it usable for all roles against all players.

Eh?

 

[ianw]

That sounds pretty awesome, as long as they dont wimp out and they make it usable for all roles against all players.

To be honest it didn't even sound like a definite maybe - more of a theoretical - we could....

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

To be honest it didn't even sound like a definite maybe - more of a theoretical - we could....

Yea, I'm not getting my hopes up on the second part. I was just saying it sounds like a neat idea, If it was implemented.

Eh?

Meaning FD don't put restrictions on it and allow pirates to use them as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Meaning FD don't put restrictions on it and allow pirates to use them as well.

Ahhhh .. I missed the second "they" in "as long as they dont wimp out and they make it usable for all roles against all players". Which gives the sentence a completely different meaning

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

That sounds pretty awesome, as long as they dont wimp out, and they make it usable for all roles against all players.

It completely makes the concept of solo useless and is basically a forced Open Mode through the backdoor. I play solo if I don't want any other players in my game. I don't want to get bothered by their made-up-excuses-RP or silly pseudo-"honor" or other things some players come up. Sometimes I really don't care about that and I really don't want to be bothered with it. That's the whole point of Solo Mode for me.

Are players really so desperate because nobody wants to play with them that they need yet an other a way to force their will onto others even if those explicitly don't want to play with them?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It completely makes the concept of solo useless and is basically a forced Open Mode through the backdoor. I play solo if I don't want any other players in my game. I don't want to get bothered by their made-up-excuses-RP or silly pseudo-"honor" or other things some players come up. Sometimes I really don't care about that and I really don't want to be bothered with it. That's the whole point of Solo Mode for me.

Are players really so desperate because nobody wants to play with them that they need yet an other a way to force their will onto others even if those explicitly don't want to play with them?

If it indeed is: "follow someone into solo", that would imply the limpet being available for a short amount of time.

But what puzzles me is .... so there's a limpet. Now what I do? Shoot some mining fragments for it to collect?

 

[ianw]

It completely makes the concept of solo useless and is basically a forced Open Mode through the backdoor. I play solo if I don't want any other players in my game. I don't want to get bothered by their made-up-excuses-RP or silly pseudo-"honor" or other things some players come up. Sometimes I really don't care about that and I really don't want to be bothered with it. That's the whole point of Solo Mode for me.

Are players really so desperate because nobody wants to play with them that they need yet an other a way to force their will onto others even if those explicitly don't want to play with them?

Yep! Totally agree. No one will force me to do anything I don't want to do. I will drop ED if it ever happens.

I'd assumed it was just going to let people see if someone were in solo so as not to bother looking for them.

Can't imagine they'd actually let a hunter yank someone out of solo!

 

[Jockey79]

I'd assumed it was just going to let people see if someone were in solo so as not to bother looking for them.

Can't imagine they'd actually let a hunter yank someone out of solo!

It sounds more like the intent is to allow people to follow a player killer in to their Solo mode game, if that player killer has recently been in Open, killing players.

I have no problem with that, not being a type of person to look for weak targets, then go hide in Solo when combat ships turn up it will have no impact on me at all. As long as those of us who do swap modes (but not hurt anyone) are exempt from any mechanic like this - I say let PvPers do what they want to each other.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I'd assumed it was just going to let people see if someone were in solo so as not to bother looking for them.

Can't imagine they'd actually let a hunter yank someone out of solo!

That could be achieved with other methods. FD knows who is playing in what mode. Simply adjust that stupid "Most Wanted" local galNet posting to only show currently in Open Mode playing CMDRs (or in the same group). In Solo Mode they could show the top bounties of NPCs.

Maybe I just misunderstood something, sorry if that's the case. The concept of mode switching and solo being solo is very important to me.

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I have no problem with that, not being a type of person to look for weak targets, then go hide in Solo when combat ships turn up it will have no impact on me at all. As long as those of us who do swap modes (but not hurt anyone) are exempt from any mechanic like this - I say let PvPers do what they want to each other.

How long will it take until players find out to "tag" random players? How long if they find a loophole or "clever use of game mechanics"?

A player attacks an other player in open mode and then hides in Solo if things go wrong. Where is the problem? There is no real problem. It's just some "feeling", some fuzzy idea of "fairness" and "honor" and a misguided sense of "revenge".
Players want to be able to attack weak players, kill them for no reason and then in addition to that they want to follow them into Solo mode? What's wrong with these players?

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

It completely makes the concept of solo useless and is basically a forced Open Mode through the backdoor. I play solo if I don't want any other players in my game. I don't want to get bothered by their made-up-excuses-RP or silly pseudo-"honor" or other things some players come up. Sometimes I really don't care about that and I really don't want to be bothered with it. That's the whole point of Solo Mode for me.

Are players really so desperate because nobody wants to play with them that they need yet an other a way to force their will onto others even if those explicitly don't want to play with them?

Um do you not understand how it would work? You'd have had to have been in open recently to get tagged by a limpet. People playing Solo all the time will be completely unaffected by them.

 

[Jockey79]

How long will it take until players find out to "tag" random players? How long if they find a loophole or "clever use of game mechanics"?

Well, that is where it is up to FD to make sure any system put in place is done right and people who try to exploit it get banned.

A player attacks an other player in open mode and then hides in Solo if things go wrong. Where is the problem? There is no real problem. It's just some "feeling", some fuzzy idea of "fairness" and "honor" and a misguided sense of "revenge".

The reasons don't matter.
If someone is playing peek a boo with the modes in order to get cheap kills - then they deserve what they get, other player killers should be able to attack them back.

Players want to be able to attack weak players, kill them for no reason and then in addition to that they want to follow them into Solo mode? What's wrong with these players?

I think you've written that wrong - or missed something.

It's not the attackers following victims in to Solo. It is the attackers being followed in to Solo by other attackers.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Surely not. Surely the intention isn't to bring another player into a solo game.

 

[Sylveria]

It sounds more like the intent is to allow people to follow a player killer in to their Solo mode game, if that player killer has recently been in Open, killing players.

I have no problem with that, not being a type of person to look for weak targets, then go hide in Solo when combat ships turn up it will have no impact on me at all. As long as those of us who do swap modes (but not hurt anyone) are exempt from any mechanic like this - I say let PvPers do what they want to each other.

^ Exactly this. Solo-only players have nothing to worry about.

 

[Lex Looter]

Surely not. Surely the intention isn't to bring another player into a solo game.

What, you don't like the idea of having a magic item that can make Solo non Solo, just because it would completely defeat the purpose of having a Solo mode in the first place?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Um do you not understand how it would work? You'd have had to have been in open recently to get tagged by a limpet. People playing Solo all the time will be completely unaffected by them.

But I like playing in open mode and I like playing in solo mode. And I like other players interacting in any possible way in open mode, but if I play Solo mode I don't want even the slightest chance of an other player showing up.
If I play solo mode after playing open mode I choose solo mode because I don't want to play with other players. Otherwise I would stay in open mode. Not playing with others is the whole reason of solo mode.

Such limpets could affect me. They could ruin the game for me as I suddenly wouldn't have the option play alone whenever I want. The only option I would have is not to play the game at all.

Well, that is where it is up to FD to make sure any system put in place is done right and people who try to exploit it get banned.

You mean by asking them politely not to do it again after getting caught a dozen times and then accepting their promises not to do it again. Like they did with the Leesti station rammers?

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If someone is playing peek a boo with the modes in order to get cheap kills - then they deserve what they get, other player killers should be able to attack them back.

Why? Because of some sense of "justice"? FD should do something to prevent that type of gameplay in the mode it happens and not by a band-aid that compromises the whole concept of the modes.

I think you've written that wrong - or missed something.

It's not the attackers following victims in to Solo. It is the attackers being followed in to Solo by other attackers.

Players want to be able to attack anybody in open for absolutely no reason.
Players want to be able to follow other players into Solo Mode.
It's just players wanting to be able to attack others no matter where those other players are. Everything else is just a justification in my opinion.
It's not needed in my opinion.


We already had one poster who wanted to use those limpets as a way to pirate players in Solo (by following them into solo). Guess what's next.

 

[Daffan]

And you base this on ...?

They shouldn't be catered to in any case. Murdering and Ganking freely created the exact scenario we have now with people like most traders and the average player not playing open.

And you have that, with other people who want the same as you. With open mode, right now.
So what is it exactly you want? As what you just asked for is in game right now.


So you don't think traders would log in to a PvP group?
So you don't think explorers would log in to a PvP group?

Because both types log in to open now, the only way you'd know for sure is to make a PvP group and see who signs up.
After all, CQC is there for arena style fighting - so you may get something new or different.

Hardly anyone does PowerPlay normally because you can undermine in solo. There are heaps of examples like this that i can mention, where the path of least resistance detracts from other parts of the game.

No I don't think they would, because most don't even log into open because the crime system is a disaster for long-term survability, just like Felucca was in the long-term. Except ED is even more PVP heavy than Felucca was with its rule sets. (Which makes it hilarious that ED even came out with this pvp murder ruleset it currently has.)

Exactly, CQC is a good addition because it's good for arena style fighting - Why would you want to make a scripted arena in Open in a private group.