Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Robert Maynard]

It would be honest. The players would know where they stand. The players would have to make no more hopes. The players would also not discuss this issue here in the forum. Already in the third solo vs. Open vs Group Thread. MAybe they would leave the Game, if they are unsatisfied with the status quo.

There is nothing dishonest regarding the three game modes; single shared galaxy state and mode mobility - these core game features were published as part of the game design at the beginning of the Kickstarter - over three years ago.

There have been many, many threads on this topic - starting as soon as some players realised that their preferred play-style would be affected by the freedom of all players to play in whichever game mode they wished on a session by session basis with the same commander.

With the advent of Community Goals and Powerplay, a new strand to the argument was introduced - how do players counter the actions of those who play in other modes - Frontier have been very clear that both Community Goals and Powerplay are for *all* players, not just those in one of the three modes.

Frontier have stated more than once that they consider all game modes to be equal and valid.

Again, the single shared galaxy state that all players affect and experience has been a core game feature from the outset - it is very unlikely, in my opinion, that Frontier will create a second galaxy state - for two reasons - firstly because it is their wish that all players share a single galaxy state and secondly because it would incur extra cost, maintenance and curation.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think it's a given that players are much much harder to kill than NPCs. A bounty on a player should be a lot more than for an NPC. The risk is greater. So should be the reward.

I think that this would achieve several things. It would encourage PvP, reward it fairly, appease the Open only players, and have zero effect on the background simulation, so would not affect anyone else in any other mode, other than them knowing that someone else might be getting rewarded for doing something that they would prefer not to do themselves.

Allowing players to place bounties on each other, would help create emergent gameplay to some degree, and could also facilitate the suggestion in the ED blurb that each player that you meet could be your greatest ally, or your worst enemy...

Unless I'm missing something, and please tell me if I am, I'm not playing that long so it's entirely possible, but I can't se how such an inclusion would make any difference to players of the other modes. The mechanic would be there for them too, except they don't have the player tgts to complete the bounties.

I think it shouldn't be difficult for a system which recognised players and NPCs differently with regard to rewards.

It is entirely possible that player bounties are the same as NPC bounties *because* Frontier do not wish to encourage PvP.

Player issued bounties (only by those who have been attacked / destroyed by the player on which they want to place the bounty) were discussed in the Criminality final proposal in the DDF. Random bounties could easily lead to a form of griefing.

 

[Garbarrage]

Let's take the example Powerplay

Powerplay
Allegiance. Reward. Power.

"Powerplay is an ongoing battle for interstellar conquest and control did touches and Enhances every aspect of the Elite Dangerous experience. Ally yourself with a galactic power, guide Their strategy, earn valuable perks and bonuses, and dominate human-occupied space together. Every player's choices and actions can impact the balance of galactic power. "bla bla bla.

How does the game actually designed? Do collect "Merits", you kill enemy NPC, You deliver documents and moving bar graphs. By doing so you bear no risk. You can even fly into enemy territory with a lakon type 9 without escort

An enemy player who wants to defend his system will not stop you, thanks to the network infrastructure.

It should not be taken to the players the opportunity to experience this kind of game fun, but at least should the other players who maintain a different style of play, also have the opportunity to express themselves freely.

And that means that in an open channel, a system can not be conquered in stealth mode.

I agree in principle... this is my definition of an MMO also. I'd prefer a game like the one you describe, but unfortunately for both of us, this game is not designed that way, and by all accounts from FD, this is how it's going to be always...

My gut feeling, is that a game with this lack of PvP can't survive, but gut feelings are often wrong and here this game stands going strong into its second season.

So, the problem is seemingly in both of our preconceptions as to what an MMO should be. I'm genuinely struggling to reconcile my preconceptions with what this game is, but I get it more and more each time I play.

I think a little more open-mindedness on both our parts is required.

 

[Lestenio]

If they want easy targets, they can go to Solo, Private and Open 1, to shoot at NPC.
My suggestion with the additionally Open 2 lets you still play without the people you do not want to play with.
We PVPers hate invisible Enemies. If Solo and Private-players infuence Solo and Private Groups, and Open Players infuence Open only (in relation to Powerplay, Community Goal etc.). there is no problem. Everybody can stay in his own world and can influence his own BGS. Nobody is forced to be an easy target for PVPers. You have still the choice.

You are forgetting that servers to run the BGS cost money. Who will fund extra servers, for PC, for Xbox, for PS4. I assume each of those will be entitled to their own sim.
What about the extra staff costs to develop and keep track of mutiple fractured story lines?

 

[Jockey79]

I think it's a given that players are much much harder to kill than NPCs. A bounty on a player should be a lot more than for an NPC. The risk is greater. So should be the reward.

It used to be like that, but then people started abusing/exploiting it to collect lots of credits.

If they want easy targets, they can go to Solo, Private and Open 1, to shoot at NPC.

You missed the important part... "PvPers".... some of them are not real PvPers and only want unarmed traders to shoot at, certain "pirate" groups spring to mind

My suggestion with the additionally Open 2 lets you still play without the people you do not want to play with.
We PVPers hate invisible Enemies. If Solo and Private-players infuence Solo and Private Groups, and Open Players infuence Open only (in relation to Powerplay, Community Goal etc.). there is no problem. Everybody can stay in his own world and can influence his own BGS. Nobody is forced to be an easy target for PVPers. You have still the choice. PVP is optional.

This has been asked and answered so many times.
Frontier want only 1 BGS - in order to show them there is a seroius need for a PvP only BGS, try making and building up a group that is PvP only, to get the head count of people who want a PvP only BGS.
If you can get enough names connected to it, you may just convince Frontier you have a point - until then, the largest player group in game is Mobius (PvE Only) at 14,000 members.

 

[Phosphora]

PVP is not an option when PVP is against an invisible enemy. PVP "is" an option when it is against a visible enemy. In Powerplay, CG and so on you play against an invisible enemy, who is shifting bar diagramms witout having a fight with you. The enemy has its stealth modus,The enemy operates in the background called Private and Solo. So you have to operate in the background too. The Open-Play is like a Solo Mode.

Not all RP is PvP. Some people may enjoy being content for other people. Others may hate the idea. The different modes allow Elite: Dangerous to cope with this diversity in player personalities.

Cheers, Phos.

 

[Benedictus]

You missed the important part... "PvPers".... some of them are not real PvPers and only want unarmed traders to shoot at, certain "pirate" groups spring to mind.

Not if the unarmed Lakon Type 9 without escort is flying in Solo, Private or Open 1... in their own BGS. The PVPers are in Open 2. They cant kill traders in Open 1.

This has been asked and answered so many times.
Frontier want only 1 BGS - in order to show them there is a seroius need for a PvP only BGS, try making and building up a group that is PvP only, to get the head count of people who want a PvP only BGS.
If you can get enough names connected to it, you may just convince Frontier you have a point - until then, the largest player group in game is Mobius (PvE Only) at 14,000 members.

Thats a good idea. Or we discuss it in the provided thread. And FD sees the need to react when the 6th thread of this type is opened.

 

[Seonid]

I think it's a given that players are much much harder to kill than NPCs.

That's not an absolute given at all.

And FD sees the need to react when the 6th thread of this type is opened.

They don't need to react, they answered nearly 3 years ago. You misunderstand why this thread exists.

 

[Whoamus]

Thats a good idea. Or we discuss it in the provided thread. And FD sees the need to react when the 6th thread of this type is opened.

No, I don't see FD reacting to this thread in the way you think. Maybe they would get an idea or two but the basic structure of the game with one BGS and three modes is here to stay. I have followed the versions of this thread since I have played. I even gave it an award https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145309&p=2382974&viewfull=1#post2382974 in version "part the second". This is the cool your heels thread where players can vent about their vision of what the game should be and those who understand what FD's vision of the game is, keep trying to explain it.

Disclaimer: I am one of those shameful solo players.

 

[Mouse]

Let's take the example Powerplay

Powerplay
Allegiance. Reward. Power.

"Powerplay is an ongoing battle for interstellar conquest and control did touches and Enhances every aspect of the Elite Dangerous experience. Ally yourself with a galactic power, guide Their strategy, earn valuable perks and bonuses, and dominate human-occupied space together. Every player's choices and actions can impact the balance of galactic power. "bla bla bla.

How does the game actually designed? Do collect "Merits", you kill enemy NPC, You deliver documents and moving bar graphs. By doing so you bear no risk. You can even fly into enemy territory with a lakon type 9 without escort

An enemy player who wants to defend his system will not stop you, thanks to the network infrastructure.

It should not be taken to the players the opportunity to experience this kind of game fun, but at least should the other players who maintain a different style of play, also have the opportunity to express themselves freely.

And that means that in an open channel, a system can not be conquered in stealth mode.

As a trader I can tell you that your argument is horse apples. Being aligned with a PP Power is risky.....even if you don't really participate in PP. You are interdicted all the time by NPCs for other aligned powers.. Even if you are in your home system. I've been destroyed many times just a few LS from a station because I would get interdicted multiple times by PP opponent NPCs.


And the whole "risk" argument is subjective anyways and utterly false. People playing PVE have risk, PVP is not some automatic "risk calculator" where no one has risk unless another player is shooting at them. To claim that solo or private groups are "easy" and have no risk in an attempt to justify the entitlement you feel as a PVPer in open is an utter buffalo chips.

The only "stealth" mode is shadowban where people cannot affect the BGS at all. ED just like real life.. as you do things, other people are doing different things. Sometimes you can see what they are doing, most of the time you can't. People are not in some "stealth" mode with super secret agendas.. they are carrying on with their daily lives which can affect yours without you ever knowing they exist. Same with ED. The only difference is with ED... we get to choose if we get to personally interact with others at all.

 

[Ixnatifual]

PvP is a joke anyway since people just log off when they are about to die.

 

[relayer]

They restrict the variety of ship builds as every ship that could face combat (against other players; NPCs don't spam SCBs)

Just popping in to say that the new NPCs do use SCBs and even stacking them - there's plenty of videos on You Tube supporting that.

 

[Roybe]

Okay I think i have understood. My english... Elite Dangerous has no Roleplay. PVP is not an option when PVP is against an invisible enemy. There is no existent PVP option. PVP would be possible if FD would be willing to be flexible. The game is almost perfect. I've been looking for two decades for the perfect Spacesim for me.

X3 Terran Conflict has an ingenious business simulation and vibrant Galaxy, but there is no multiplayer.

Eve Online has a fairly extensive economic simulation, money and goods. Multiplayer and PVP. But the skill system I do not like, unfortunately, Third Person, and the immersion is missing.

Elite Dangerous was my hope. It took a long time until I realized the problem in Elite Dangerous. The restricted gameplay within a sandbox, with the same lack of content, the lack of PVP, the BGS and the instances.

This sandbox is not free. You cant conquer system, as clan you can not make blockades, t you cant fight player battles like in Eve, You cant trade with other players, you cant craft, you have no bank account.

Some features will be coming. But in others, FD has already been determined. The question is whether people with a particular way of playing can be happy or have to wait more years until another developer picks up their needs.

OK..first you have to understand there are two types of PVP in Elite.

PVP (standard definition)- shoot someone in the face
Group based PVP- Moving PVE trophies around to beat a timer or another group.

This game allows PvP (standard), BUT is not based on this type of play. It is not rewarded in any way in the game...other than any other player is an NPC.

The game is created around the Group PVP idea...outcollect PVE trophies of some sort....to make a change in the Galaxy.

The fact that the developers are not now...or at any other time (based on their own statements!)going to be 'flexible' about changing this.

You understand the differences between ALL those other games you have shown and what E: D does not have in it...now accept the game for what it is and decide to play...or play not!

It is your choice.

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Just popping in to say that the new NPCs do use SCBs and even stacking them - there's plenty of videos on You Tube supporting that.

They also are not under the current temperature constraints of PC's either!

 

[Mouse]

PvP is a joke anyway since people just log off when they are about to die.

Actually it is more of a joke when people group up and go after weaker or non armed targets and consider it PVP. I don't' blame someone for logging if they are so outnumbered they have no possible way to defend themselves. Some PVPers ridicule others when it is the PVPers that deserves the ridicule, plus contempt and scorn. Couldn't deal with a fair fight so they go after others that offer no risk to them then call them cowards when their victim logs instead of facing them. Some then come here and talk about risk... yet they have not faced any themselves. All in an attempt to inflate their own fragile egos.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Just popping in to say that the new NPCs do use SCBs and even stacking them - there's plenty of videos on You Tube supporting that.

I knew that NPCs use SCBs, but I wasn't aware that they could spam or stack them - never encountered a NPC that did that. Not good.

 

[relayer]

PVP is not an option when PVP is against an invisible enemy. PVP "is" an option when it is against a visible enemy. In Powerplay, CG and so on you play against an invisible enemy, who is shifting bar diagramms witout having a fight with you. The enemy has its stealth modus,The enemy operates in the background called Private and Solo. So you have to operate in the background too. The Open-Play is like a Solo Mode.

Well, taking your vaguely-insulting post in stride, you've been told quite a few times in this thread that due to the networking & matchmaker issues, what you want is not possible. You will never see every other player, even in the same system.

The other point raised many times here is that politics are not war. Politics, which is what Powerplay is, is not open warfare; it is the diplomat married to your sister; the scheming office climber; the under-the-table arrangements for favorable trade rates; pounding your shoe on your desk and screaming "Nyet! Nyet!" in a United Nations conference (you kids might have a little trouble understanding that last bit).

China does not send hordes of craft to attack the US; instead, economic games and strategies are used in "combat." Same with the new Russian entrepreneurs. Politics are a stealth game, for the most part. And you will never get the chance to see all the actors at once. Or even at twice.

Just consider the solo/group players as just one more factor in the BGS.

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"The enemy" implies that everyone in Solo is working against you. This paranoia is the root of all the delusions about Solo.

BY GEORGE I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!

 

[relayer]

Allowing players to place bounties on each other, would help create emergent gameplay to some degree, and could also facilitate the suggestion in the ED blurb that each player that you meet could be your greatest ally, or your worst enemy...

There are many threads & discussions about KIS (kill on sight) and private people offering bounties on players' heads. Just google. Mostly reddit.

 

[relayer]

I knew that NPCs use SCBs, but I wasn't aware that they could spam or stack them - never encountered a NPC that did that. Not good.

That's been going on since 1.4 dropped. Like i said, search YT. Guys whittling down NPC's shields until just a sliver, then magically full again (without leaving combat) several times; the one I saw was 6 times.

However, with the new changes in SCBs, I'm curious if those type of NPCs will suffer the consequences of heat/stacking now or be adjusted for only, say, 2 onboard SCBs.

 

[relayer]

half on-topic...

I've been reading about the new SCB changes in 1.5. Basically, they add a high heat penalty on use. This makes stacking SCBs out of the question now.

Up to this point, there's been the perennial argument against solo - "risk in open." Here's some of what's posting in the SCB thread:

*

"As it was people just shield tanked until out and then ran back and recharged, it really made combat and pvp only have risk if you wanted it to have risk."

"It boggles me that people think they should be invulnerable, and survive as long as they want in hostile environments. Why play at all if it is so easy?"

"And who are such ones who know how to play? The ones who cannot survive without SCBs? They only know how to play if they have magic shields protecting them?"

*

You may be laughing at this point, or groaning with recognition - these are usually the arguments thrown at Solo. Evidently, quite a lot of Open players depend on this kind of "battle of the SCBs" to keep them "safe" in Open with "less risk" and "only if they wanted [risk]." Never understood why stacking an Anaconda with SCBs made Open "more dangerous."

 

[Benedictus]

Let's take the example Powerplay

Powerplay
Allegiance. Reward. Power.

"Powerplay is an ongoing battle for interstellar conquest and control did touches and Enhances every aspect of the Elite Dangerous experience. Ally yourself with a galactic power, guide Their strategy, earn valuable perks and bonuses, and dominate human-occupied space together. Every player's choices and actions can impact the balance of galactic power. "bla bla bla.

How does the game actually designed? Do collect "Merits", you kill enemy NPC, You deliver documents and moving bar graphs. By doing so you bear no risk. You can even fly into enemy territory with a lakon type 9 without escort

An enemy player who wants to defend his system will not stop you, thanks to the network infrastructure.

It should not be taken to the players the opportunity to experience this kind of game fun, but at least should the other players who maintain a different style of play, also have the opportunity to express themselves freely.

And that means that in an open channel, a system can not be conquered in stealth mode.

I agree in principle... this is my definition of an MMO also. I'd prefer a game like the one you describe, but unfortunately for both of us, this game is not designed that way, and by all accounts from FD, this is how it's going to be always...

My gut feeling, is that a game with this lack of PvP can't survive, but gut feelings are often wrong and here this game stands going strong into its second season.

So, the problem is seemingly in both of our preconceptions as to what an MMO should be. I'm genuinely struggling to reconcile my preconceptions with what this game is, but I get it more and more each time I play.

I think a little more open-mindedness on both our parts is required.

Spoken wisely. I have to think about it. Maybe Elite Dangerous is not the game I was looking for.