Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Ahh, "Sold" and "players" are two different things though.
…

To be fair: members of a group and active players of a group are two different things.

To make things more complicated: How many other Private Groups with PvE rules are there? How many members or active players do these groups have? Since Open Mode is easily accessible and Private Groups are "invite only" it could be argued that players in a Private Group really want that type of gameplay while players in Open Mode might not want the gameplay there, but just don't know that other options exists.
This could be countered by mentioning that players could be members of a private group and still be playing a lot of time in Open Mode.

That's enough discussion-PVP content for the next few incarnations of this thread. (I wonder when the next call for discussion-PvE comes from the mods)

I don't think that the numbers are that important.

 

[Jockey79]

Sigh you asked for figures, sorry you don't like them.

Because I want real figures, not made up ones.
Alas you don't have real figures.

With your logic that people are buying multiple copies on mass to have multiple accounts.

2 things;

1) it is " En masse" not "on mass". - You were the one who brought up using Google to look things up - perhaps you need to research common phrases ?
2) I never said people were buying accounts "En masse" - I just said people do buy more than one - I know that to be true as I know folks with more than 1 account.

So Sales numbers and player numbers are two different things.

You would logically imagine these same people who have joined Mobius would have done so multiple times.

Not at all, I know some who are in Mobius with one account and another group with their second account.

I personally am in Mobius, Hutton Truckers, Bacon Cats, EDC, Light Knights, The Wandering Wallies, plus some other small (5 or less) groups.

You know because Open is the Devil and all.

You may want to take up the hobby of "reading" - as you may find out, I play open (talked about this in mega 2)

 

[Jockey79]

To be fair: members of a group and active players of a group are two different things.

Aye, which is why when people throw 1% (or Maj at 1.5%) - I'm asking where it came from.

We know a rough "Sales" figure, we know a rough forum user number.
Yet people throw 1% around like it is a fact set in stone.... why ???

Where did 1% come from, what figures ? what proof ?

How does 825k sales, turn in to 1% players ?

Players come and go, sales can only go up...... so neither number is related. Yet it is used as a way to dismiss PvE players (aka you only have 1%).

 

[DarkWalker]

To be fair: members of a group and active players of a group are two different things.

Though someone that went through the trouble of finding about groups, and locating a group that matches his interest, seems more prone to still be playing than the average player.

But yeah, we don't have enough data to use numbers in this discussion in an effective way. Even Frontier likely only has part of the required data; they certainly know how many players are still active, how many of those play in groups and which groups, how many play in Solo, and so on, but I don't think they know how many are in Solo because they want no PvP (as opposed to no player contact) or how many Open players would prefer to not be subject to PvP.

 

[Cosmos]

How have you decided Mobius is 1.5% ??

Where are your hard facts / numbers ?

Last time I saw some one promoting the numbers there was something like 13k members.. I forget the exact figure but we are nearing 1 million people who've bought ED.. Frontier could probably tell you the precise figures but I think my numbers are a reasonable estimation.

Locking people in a mode (one of the main points about ED was multiplayer - its also labelled as an mmo) is not an answer and as for jeopardy.. there is for the sheep but none for the wolves. And calling Mobius a "privileged" group is rather asinine. Because people want to play there sometimes or all the time and not want to pvp doesn't make them privileged.

I dont really see it as locking people in a particular mode. For the most part the only time when there is risk of peoples game being 'ruined' is around cg's or areas of particular interest. Perhaps I'm old skool, I used to play the original Elite and back then going to an Anarchy or Feudal system, where the best profits were to be made, required you to take on a lot of risk and go well equipped. These days does anyone pay attention to the security status of a system?

Its this kind of thing that feeds itself into the PvE game ironcially.. I see players who've traded make billions with no risk. Those dangerous systems would also be dangerous to would be bandits too. Let us not forget the size of the play area too. I just think this whole scenario has gotten out of hand with people becoming extremely entrenched. I do identify with anyone who doesn't want their game time made a total misery, unable to move for hours upon end, but ultimately there are so many lost player experiences such as requiring an escort ot go places and all the danger and comradery that might bring.

I'm under no illusion that my view of what the game could be is highly unlikely to happen but its what I feel is right for the good of the game overall. Anyhows I've had this discussion lots of times before so I'm gonna leave it there.

 

[Jockey79]

Last time I saw some one promoting the numbers there was something like 13k members.. I forget the exact figure but we are nearing 1 million people who've bought ED.. Frontier could probably tell you the precise figures but I think my numbers are a reasonable estimation.

But that is a useless number outside of the Mobius Group.

Some Mobius members play open, some play in other groups, some play solo.
Some Open advocates play Solo. (proven in the S.O.G. threads when they own up to it)
Some Mobius members play in other groups (aka Hutton Orbital Group) - which I do.
Plus there are people who have more than 1 account.

So 825,000 sales of the game, is not 825,000 players of the game.

 

[Cosmos]

Some Open advocates play Solo. (proven in the S.O.G. threads when they own up to it)

99% of the time I play in Open. The only times where I play solo or private group is for a community goal, or to take some hi res screen shots. Its not to avoid being attacked by other players but if the situation means that people are fighting for the same resource and it negatively impacts what sort of contribution (it comes down to credits) I can attain it means those who aren't competing for resources (solo/pg) have an advantage. That is ultimately a result of the way the game has been designed - which I think in general is a single player experience, later improved upon to one that which we can share with friends.

When it comes to community goals, whilst there use and implementation is far better than they were when it first came out, I think its something in place to cover for a certain lack of depth in the game. Although it does have the benefit of focusing people together and is perhaps not a bad thing considering the size of the playable area. Normally, its very easy to play the game in Open and rarely see another player. Its for this reason I think the point about unwanted pvp seems erroneous, often hysterical, and very much out of touch. It most certainly makes power-play a lot weaker than it could be. I'd be more convinced of the argument if we were sharing a galaxy of 20 systems where we were constantly meeting other players.

My disagreement isn't with the player but how this was designed and implemented in the first place. Not to give FD too hard a time though, there are lots of past developmental considerations to take into account. Anyhow I think these discussions aren't going to change much. FD have said in the past they'd like people to play in Open - it tends to be better for an mmo if people see other players and I'd like to see people in the same play area rather than branching off. But FD do make constant concessions to the risk adverse (for example, at one time we were meant to be able to move people on from outposts.. what happened to that? - Despite that its never enough.

At the end of the day I just don't think a game can be both single player and an mmo at the same time and there is very little jeopardy in the game, pve wise at least. At the risk of repeating myself, I'm gonna leave it here.

 

[Roybe]

Possible titles for this thread:

Circus (we can add a theme song for this title -

Spoiler

[video=youtube;zjedLeVGcfE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjedLeVGcfE[/video]

The Carousel Spins (another theme song offered) -

Spoiler

[video=youtube;Bi7srVEHJ0w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi7srVEHJ0w[/video]

Open vs. ....A Bad Idea- (theme song -

Spoiler

[video=youtube;tPFYAd96WqE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPFYAd96WqE[/video]

Come on folks...let's step this up a bit!

 

[relayer]

Anyway folks, we are missing out on the really important conversation, what will we call the next thread?

I'm thinking; S.O.G May the 4th be with you.

Any other suggestions? (we have 40* pages left to hammer this out, not sure it will be enough)

YOG-SOGHOTH - THE SCREAMING PIT OF DARKNESS IV ?

 

[relayer]

us "filthy" PvE'ers

Where is the gallant Sir Cody, with the List Of Epithets?

 

[relayer]

My guess is that the main issue is against player ownership of space and the things inside, as well as the incentive to be a part of a large organized group. It might be a lot of fun for the players that enjoy the political fighting it causes, but it is horrible for everyone else.

This is my own general idea of what went wrong in EvE & other similar games; ownership of turf stagnates expansion; "turnpike" pay-as-you-fly troll booths, the really weenie drama-queen politics...

Oh yeah, and the "ships as ammo" thing - like speed-chess and swarming with cheap units in a game, it's a gimmick tactic; one that, in a real economy model, would never work because of the cost. I don't want to fly little dots around a map to throw cheap, identical ships as flak, I WANT TO FLY A SPACE SHIP.

Oh yeah, uh... and I fly it in Solo! and Groups! and occasionally in Open!

 

[relayer]

the numbers

4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42

Lost: The SOG Thread 4

 

[Yaffle]

Morning all

Please stop the sniping and trolling in here.

As for thread names, Hotel California is my favourite so far. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

 

[Daffan]

Elite and EVE both have bad retention overall.

Elite gains a lot in the sales but loses it very fast. EVE gains little in the sales and loses what it has slowly

 

[Mouse]

Elite and EVE both have bad retention overall.

Elite gains a lot in the sales but loses it very fast. EVE gains little in the sales and loses what it has slowly

I would love the data you got this from..

 

[Spook]

I would love the data you got this from..

Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

The two games are not really comparable as both don’t release up to date information on subscriber/sold copies. One is a subs driven spreadsheet simulator set in space, the other a twitch based space simulator. One is geared towards PvP with a limited map size, limited resources and other mechanisms designed to promote conflict, the other has to all intent an infinite map size and correspondingly infinite resources, so was logically designed with this in mind resulting in less player interaction and conflict and more player co-operation/PvE. To be honest the differences are many. There are some areas where the flat numbers do meet though.

Both make the majority of sales through their own web based presence however both do have a sales outlet through steam.

http://steamcharts.com/app/359320#All
http://steamcharts.com/app/8500#6m

So the only data I choose to glean from those is (Remember – lies, etc…..):

Eve	Last 30 Days	787.9	12.6	1.63%	2,011
Elite	Last 30 Days	5,835.60	1,671.30	40.14%	18,039

ED is =7.5 x more popular than Eve and by April 2019, (or round about when the BDSSE finally hits retail), then at a 40.14% increase month on month, every person on the planet will be playing ED.

Latest ED financial stated 825k copies sold vs what ever the current numbers toted by Mobius 15kish.

So closer to 1.8%

But lets not get picky

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

But Majinvash numbers matter.

Let’s use some creative numbers on just this one post.

For a start we have 4 numbers to play with:

825000 = total number of games sold.
15000 = members of Mobius.
1.8% = percentage of playerbase in the largest in game group.
1 = the Voice of Open.

So with these numbers we can try and define something useful.

Let’s see:

“15000 players of a PvE group equates to 1.8% of the player base with 825000 copies sold;”

Does it though?

(15000/825000) x 100 gives us 1.8181818181% recurring.

So we're only 0.018181% out, or (825000/100) x 0.0181818 = 150 players.

That’s more than the number of unique posters in a random groups recruitment thread. But let’s be generous. 5 page thread, 20 posts per page with a 50/50 split between ‘I want to join’ and “welcome aboard” posts. So 5 x 10 = 50 members, and we very nearly dismissed three times that number because we weren’t going to be picky.

Okay, I wasn’t being random, can you guess which group I picked?

But wait, we don't need to finish manipulating the numbers just yet.....

So far we’ve played with 825000 and 15000, how about that little old number one.

The Voice of Open.

Okay so at maximum, the most we are going to put into open is 825000 – 15000 = 810000.

Each one of those players effectively stumped up the same amount of cash for the game, each has the same claim to represent no more or less than themselves. So the most anyone could claim, with any semblance of credibility is to represent, or be the voice if you like - oneself.

100/810000 = 0.000124

The voice of 0.000124% of Open.

Numbers can matter, even tiny otherwise insignificant ones, though quite often they are just in fact random noise which should be ignored.


Told ya - lies damn lies, dodgy maths and statistics. (Yeah I know the maths is rubbish, that's the point.)

 

[Robert Maynard]

There will ALWAYS be victims for us to make our content and enjoy entirely at the expense of their gaming pleasure.

You have used two definitives in this sentence, the ability for players to play in different modes strongly suggests that only one of them can be true....

.... "ALWAYS" is a very long time indeed.

 

[Majinvash]

You have used two definitives in this sentence, the ability for players to play in different modes strongly suggests that only one of them can be true....

.... "ALWAYS" is a very long time indeed.

Ah Robert. Thanks for being so awesome!

As long as ED exists, there will always be someone who isn't as good at the game as me. Because i'm amazing and all.

There will as long as the game exists, be people that I can PVP.

They will be my victims and content.

Happy?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Commander Debic]

You have used two definitives in this sentence, the ability for players to play in different modes strongly suggests that only one of them can be true....

.... "ALWAYS" is a very long time indeed.

I really wish that when you have a player on your ignored list you didn't have to see their inane replies to others as well. Perhaps just a box with a message like This Reply is From a Player on Your Ignore List.

Then I wouldn't have to read such drivel as this players replies.
Anything you can push up to the powers that be to help me achieve this state of nirvana RM?
I am of course not referring to you but to the one you replied to.

 

[Majinvash]

I really wish that when you have a player on your ignored list you didn't have to see their inane replies to others as well. Perhaps just a box with a message like This Reply is From a Player on Your Ignore List.

Then I wouldn't have to read such drivel as this players replies.
Anything you can push up to the powers that be RM to help me achieve this state of nirvana RM?
I am of course not referring to you but to the one you replied to.

So I have managed to push people in to Solo mode on this forum as well?

That is pretty amazing.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open