Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

Do you want a Open PvE

  • Yes, I want a Open PvE

    Votes: 54 51.4%
  • No, I don't want a Open PvE

    Votes: 49 46.7%
  • I want only Open PvE and PvP only in groups

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    105
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
But adding things for 1 subset of people is also bad and does not promote "equality" either.

Adding something to achieve equilibrium is an act of balancing.


So, a Solo gets pulled over by a wing of 4 is equal to an Open player in a wing of 4 getting pulled over by the same NPC wing of 4 is "equal" and "controlled" ?

I think your scales are off, by a lot.

Solo can control their interaction with the galaxy better than Open players.

Solo players get no support or help from anyone, yet face the same "risk" as Group and Open players from the NPCs.

Right, form NPCs and NPCs only.

So my point stands, no support = more risk, as more risk is not fair according to you, then the advantage from Group / Open needs to be removed (or NPC wings added for Solo players)

Or maybe add launched fighters or NPC wing mate?



Well, if someone does not want a wing of players kicking seven bells out of them, why are they in open ?

There are a lot of reasons why players play in Open, the one you described is just one of them.

You can play socially in private groups - Mobius is over 16,000 players now. You're just as likely to bump in to people there as you are in Open Mode.

Also, as the modes are nothing more than a matchmaking setting controlling who you can see, why does Solo and Open have instant join buttons on the menu but Groups have to jump through hoops to get theirs?

It's a player-created controlled environment, made through using the tools provided by FD.

Solo and Open are just auto join groups on the main menu, so why can we not have Mobius, Hutton Truckers, Canonn, EDC or any other group set to auto join on the main menu as well? Wh do Solo and Open get privileges when other groups do not?

This game is not looking very fair or "equal" to anyone is it....

You can, by just creating a group and you have instant access to it whenever you want, Mobius is a perfect example.
 
My two bobs worth......... Apart from doing what I want in this splendid 'Open' Galaxy, there is a time when I need to trade for a while to be able to afford either my next upgrade or new ship. I was heart broken when I had to let go of my 'A' rated Python in part exchange for the Anaconda. The alternative of keeping it and continuing until I could afford to buy the Anaconda outright would have simply taken too long. Not that there isn't much else to do in the meantime, because there is. However my choice in upgrading to a larger Cargo capacity has led me suspect that the influence on commodities of both supply & price from those in solo play is just unfair. In open play I have the choice of either putting the frighteners on someone who has tried to muscle in on my patch or pirating. But how can I stop a trade convoy of type 9s in solo play from dragging down my profits ? I have absolutely no way of dealing with something in 'my' Universe because the culprits are in 'another' Universe. Am I missing a way around this ?
 
Players in a Wing are at less risk from a given situation involving NPCs than any one of them alone. That's a relative advantage to the multi-player modes in the game.

Restricted to npc encounters, multi-player mode has to account for things other than npcs.

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No, no no no!

I mean, I GET the argument, but rather than removing things, lets ADD things into the game. AI wingmen (with different ships / loadouts / capabilities) with some basic communication UI would go a long way to making wings useful for solo players as well. Plus it feels like it would make things more interesting EVERYWHERE, not just solo.

Exactly.

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Do I understand you correctly that you are questioning the "equality" of a system that treats all participants equally (as in the rules apply the same to all) and not differently based on their perceived difference (as in different rules to counter a perceived disadvantage)?

I think a gaming forum isn't the best place to discuss such things.
It's an interesting topic for a conversation at a table with some good food and drinks.

All matters are perceived to an extent, I believe my questioning of the "equality" system is something inherent in its origin.

True, this is getting philosophical, which is what I tend to and enjoy discussing, I am drinking tea and snacking, and completing an assassination mission right now (Damn you spawn rate).
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
True, but it doesn't undermine the value of player encounter. Emphasis shifts to player encounter due to their potential of being far more challenging/difficult than NPCs.

.... and rarer. On the one hand we have Wings affording their members a relative advantage compared to a single player. On the other hand we have the possibility of meeting other players. It's all in the strength of the advantage and the probability of meeting other players whether the advantage of Wings is outweighed by the frequency of encountering hostile players.
 
.... and rarer. On the one hand we have Wings affording their members a relative advantage compared to a single player. On the other hand we have the possibility of meeting other players. It's all in the strength of the advantage and the probability of meeting other players whether the advantage of Wings is outweighed by the frequency of encountering hostile players.

True, then we also account for the possibility of player being winged up when encountering either NPC or other players and compare that to the controlled environment of Solo.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
True, then we also account for the possibility of player being winged up when encountering either NPC or other players and compare that to the controlled environment of Solo.

For every player destroyed by a wing of four players there are 4 out of the 5 players involved with a reduced risk to themselves.
 
For every player destroyed by a wing of four players there are 4 out of the 5 players involved with a reduced risk to themselves.

And that reduced risk is countered by the probability of reinforcement arriving. The probability of 4 players actually catching a single player is also a probability of its own. (You know, when you see four hollow squares behind you, you might be inclined to check or low-wake/high-wake)
 
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No,but it creates an advantage for Open players. One which they are welcome to enjoy :)

But it is relatively necessary to counter the probabilities in multi-player mode, and Solo has a more controlled environment.

But I still think that Solo should get NPC wingmates just to enjoy the facet of the wing feature, it's not a necessity, but a great addition, not to mention launched fighter's confirmed release in Horizon.
 
For every player destroyed by a wing of four players there are 4 out of the 5 players involved with a reduced risk to themselves.

Of course it does. That is the point of flying with a few buddies. Risk mitigation. The point is to enhance the chances of YOUR success in whatever endeavor you are undertaking.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, either you, or your opponent - has done something wrong.
 
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Majinvash

Banned
Of course it does. That is the point of flying with a few buddies. Risk mitigation. The point is to enhance the chances of YOUR success in whatever endeavor you are undertaking.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, either you, opponent - has done something wrong.

Also, you really don't need to wing against NPC's. Why bother sharing any bounty, they are too easy to beat.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
Solo is the most controlled environment out of all three modes, therefore it doesn't need the wing feature to counter the relative risk it faces

Very wrong - you have not taken player skill into account. Not everyone is able to defend their ship against AI wings. When I used to play Solo quite a few times I would get jumped by a wing of 4 fighters - kobayashi maru or run away - no other course of action possible. This is of course possible in any mode and points out the games preferential treatment for groups of players who can wing up to avoid this scenario.

But it is relatively necessary to counter the probabilities in multi-player mode, and Solo has a more controlled environment.

But I still think that Solo should get NPC wingmates just to enjoy the facet of the wing feature, it's not a necessity, but a great addition, not to mention launched fighter's confirmed release in Horizon.

I'm glad you see the need for it but again you are not taking into account the vastly different skill levels of players in the game. Why should people who, for what ever reason, play solo get less of a game than you and I? They paid for the same game and yet in just the same way a non-Horizons owner cannot land on planets a solo player cannot 'hire' protection for either their RP or safety?

Lets turn it around a bit... If you and some Code types were flying in a wing what would you go for to steal from out of the following?

1. A lone player in a T9
2. A player in a T9 with 3 players in Vipers
3. A lone player in a T9 with 3 AI Vipers
4. A lone player in a T9 with 3 AI Condas
5. A player in a T9 with 3 player Condas

For me Wings is an incomplete mess until it allows for any player in any mode to hire AI to wing with and do what they wish - I might want to be a Pirate in solo with my mean crew of law breakers or I may just want to go on a trade run with some AI along for protection.
 
FD has deliberately chosen to separate the three game modes from each other. This makes sense, because the players from the solo have very different preferences than the players from the Open. But as FD separated these modes from each other, FD was not consistent enough. Because we know:

"All players have an effect on the background simulation Regardless of fashion They play in or Which Platform They play on, and can switch between groups at will without penalty or Change To Their character's statistics."

FD had intended in order to treat all game modes equal. But obviously FD was not clear that this kind of implementation, although equates the game modes, but the OpenPlayer would be penalized, because it is more difficult to be a Trader in Open than in Solo/Private, even if he was not forced to play in the Open.

In order to achieve actual equality, FD should treat the players equally and not the modes. This means that not only the needs of solo and private players should be considered, but all.

The solo players should keep their hiding place because they may have not even intend to be online at all. They wanted from the very beginning an offline single player mode. These are entitled to the Solo mode.

The private players also have the need to have a retreat, but they want to share this with their friends, to have a cooperative gameplay. They also have a right to it.

But what needs the Openplayers? I just think that their needs have been neglected. Thats the reason why the thread here is so long.

The question should therefore rather be how to satisfy their needs without reducing that of the other. And throughout the thread, several approaches have already been mentioned, but they were all rejected by those that are not addressed.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
FD has deliberately chosen to separate the three game modes from each other. This makes sense, because the players from the solo have very different preferences than the players from the Open. But as FD separated these modes from each other, FD was not consistent enough. Because we know:

"All players have an effect on the background simulation Regardless of fashion They play in or Which Platform They play on, and can switch between groups at will without penalty or Change To Their character's statistics."

The modes are simply different settings on the matchmaking system with respect to who a player in a particular mode may meet: Solo = no-one else; Private Group = only those players who also have access and are playing in that Private Group; Open = players who are playing in Open.

The three game modes; mode mobility and the single shared galaxy state comprise core game features published at the start of the Kickstarter. Offline mode was added later then cancelled prior to launch.

Frontier have ruled out bonuses to players in any one mode (over the others) as they are on record as considering all game modes to be equal and valid. Community Goals, Powerplay and Player Sponsored Minor Factions are content for all three modes.
 
That argument goes either way, open mode players are players, too. And the conflict of interest was no resolved through providing equality, but favoritism. (Again, not criticizing the players)
Not favoritism, but choice. The basic idea of how multiplayer would work in ED is that every player has the inalienable right to block anyone else, regardless of reason, from appearing in their game. Open is merely a congregation of the players that don't want to block anyone else.

Thus, there is nothing special about Open. It's just a choice about who you allow to play with you.

In a different game, based on different ideas and focused on a different potential player base, things would be different. If ED was about players competing to see who best pushes their favorite faction's influence across the map, then it might make sense to promote a different idea about fairness, with the intent of making the game more enjoyable for its target audience. But ED was never meant as that kind of game.

Well, real world allows "bad" roles, as well, and both virtual and real world do offer consequence for those that break the social contract.
Perhaps. But pirating, smuggling, and other such activities in the game aren't breaking the social contract. They are supported aspects of the game, though, due to the rules laid out since the game was first presented, only among the players that choose to be subject to them.

If those things in game were breaking the social contact, like they are in the real world, then players would suffer actual penalties for doing them, things like rollbacks and bans.


That change in what is a part of the social contract and what isn't creates such a different environment that you can't even seriously consider extending the real world concepts of equality into the game world. The very concept of equality needs to be changed before being applied to the virtual world of the game because the virtual world and the real world are inherently unequal in ways that strike at the core of the concept.

In the game, the encouragement of "bad" roles is to increase diversity of gameplay,
Or, in other words, to increase the enjoyment that players derive from the game.

Which means that, whenever those "bad" roles actually reduce the enjoyment, they should instead be suppressed. Which is the main argument for providing game modes where such activities don't take place, for the players that find the existence of such roles and activities to detract from enjoying the game.

Which cycles back to the risk vs. reward argument that I refuse to play around with too much due to its intersubjective nature as I have pointed out on the very first reply to this thread.
Risk versus reward, in games, is a fallacy. A dangerous concept, even. Devs should use rewards to nudge players toward activities they will find enjoyable; blindly associating rewards with risk can lead, instead, to a game that pushes players into doing activities they dislike, and thus drives players away when it should be trying to attract them.

Or, in other words, risk versus reward, in a game, should be at most a subordinate goal, meant to be fulfilled only when it serves to point players towards more enjoyable parts of the game, and discarded otherwise.

Removing things to achieve equality is a bad idea, adding things, on the other hand, is a better solution.
Everything is relative. Adding something to a single mode is functionally the same as adding it to the game as a whole but removing it from the other modes. Falls back into your own argument that removing things to achieve equality is a bad idea.

Solo can control their interaction with the galaxy better than Open players.
For all intents and purposes, Open players in a wing can control their interaction with the galaxy even better than Solo players. Both for in-game reasons (predators tend to only go after lone prey, so players in a wing are safe from other players) and for metagaming reasons (it messes with the matchmaking, so meeting other wings becomes even rarer).

True, but it doesn't undermine the value of player encounter. Emphasis shifts to player encounter due to their potential of being far more challenging/difficult than NPCs.
And, for many, unenjoyable. For me, player encounters that aren't guaranteed to end amicably only serve to ruin the mood and make the game worse.

Which, BTW, has nothing to do with the difficulty, but rather with potentially meeting a living and thinking person that is intent on ruining my experience. Events with identical results can result in completely different experiences depending on the motivations, or perceived motivations.
 
The modes are simply different settings on the matchmaking system with respect to who a player in a particular mode may meet: Solo = no-one else; Private Group = only those players who also have access and are playing in that Private Group; Open = players who are playing in Open.

The three game modes; mode mobility and the single shared galaxy state comprise core game features published at the start of the Kickstarter. Offline mode was added later then cancelled prior to launch.

Frontier have ruled out bonuses to players in any one mode (over the others) as they are on record as considering all game modes to be equal and valid. Community Goals, Powerplay and Player Sponsored Minor Factions are content for all three modes.

For me it was in my post not that you have to defend FD. I have asked an important question for last. This question has not been asked all the time.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
For me it was in my post not that you have to defend FD. I have asked an important question for last. This question has not been asked all the time.

What "needs" do players in Open have that are, in some way, more important than those of players who play in the other two modes (or any combination of modes excluding Open only)?
 
But what needs the Openplayers? I just think that their needs have been neglected.

Hello!

I'm an Open player and I can't think of any of my needs that are neglected... I can make both friends and enemies and enjoy all the interactions and consequences that come from them.

What needs do you have that you feel are neglected?
(keep it clean ;))
 
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