Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

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I haven't posted here for a bit, but I was thinking about this again the other day and felt like updating/adding some thoughts.

Problem 1: Switching between Solo and Open


I have no problem with people being able to choose whether they want to play in Open or Solo, as both are valid ways to play the game. However, being able to switch between them at a whim when things don't exactly go your way is a problem. They need to at least have separate save files, and I wouldn't be against having to choose one or the other. Now I'm not saying that after you pick Solo or Open you should be stuck there forever. There should be an ability to transfer your save file from one to the other, say for a fee and a cooldown period (ex. server transfers in WoW) to avoid abuse (also, a consistent revenue stream for fdev). But to go in Open, have things go your way for a while (i.e. successful pirating, combat PvP, etc.), and then retreat to Solo once you are outclassed or someone comes to punish you is just unfair. It would be like going to rob someone for their money, then once the cops show up you are able to just teleport out of that situation to avoid ever suffering potential consequences. And you are able to do this as many times as you want.


Problem 2: Private groups vs. Open


I think this is one of the reasons Open seems so empty most of the time. Lots of people have their own private groups and play with each other, separate from the Open world. This is why the addition of guilds won't really do anything to help this problem, as guilds will just end up playing in their own private group most of the time. Stop separating the playerbase! If you want to play with other players, you play in Open, period. Instead of having a private group mode, how about players/guilds should be able to control their own systems within Open? Maybe have player-created permits that can be handed out at their discretion. How about adding the possibility of creating counterfeit permits to get illegal access in order to pirate the area? So many interesting possibilities and emergent gameplay potential here.


Problem 3: Huge inefficiency in Open


One of the biggest problems in Open is that it is pretty much always the worst mode to make money in. Want to bounty hunt? The scaling in RES is almost non-existent as the number of players increases, and everyone is fighting to get the bounty credits for each limited spawn. But in solo? Every wanted NPC pirate is yours to kill. No need to worry about another player stealing your kill, ever. Want to trade? In Open, you may be pirated, meaning you lose some of that precious money. In Open, you may not be able to dock right away, you may have to wait a few minutes for someone to leave. In Solo, no need to worry. As I said before: if you are looking to make the most CR/hour, you would have to be an idiot and/or unknowledgeable to grind in Open, which leads me to the next problem.


Problem 4: No middle class in Open


I usually only see two extremes of players in Open: the harmless sidewinder, and the kitted out python/clipper/conda. In other words, the inexperienced player who doesn't know any better, and the end-game player with a fully kitted out vessel looking for some action. Most of those in the middle who are experienced are grinding to their next ship in Solo for max CR/hour. Now I can't confirm this as I don't know the numbers. However, I know that if I personally want to make 4-5 million CR per hour consistently without worrying about being blown up in my D-grade ship, Solo is by far the best option. Add some damn incentives to play in Open, because as it stands right now there are so many downsides and limitations that it's just frustrating, especially if you are not fully kitted out.
 
I haven't posted here for a bit, but I was thinking about this again the other day and felt like updating/adding some thoughts.
(snip)

You would have been better served by reading some of the more recent, relevant, postings on the subject. All of these issues have valid, solid counters. Recounting them once again feels like a waste of key strokes. There is no reason open should be prioritized, incentivized, or subsidized. Open is simply one choice for a player to make. The population, or lack of population, in open is just what open can attract. Nothing more.
 
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You would have been better served by reading some of the more recent, relevant, postings on the subject. All of these issues have valid, solid counters. Recounting them once again feels like a waste of key strokes. There is no reason open should be prioritized, incentivized, or subsidized. Open is simply one choice for a player to make. The population, or lack of population, in open is just what open can attract. Nothing more.

ahem...these threads have consisted of the same rehashed arguments for a while, with a slight twist here and there. And just because there have been responses does not make them less valid than any other opinions, which these threads solely consist of.
 
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ahem...these threads have consisted of the same rehashed arguments for a while, with a slight twist here and there. And just because there have been responses does not make them less valid than any other opinions, which these threads solely consist of.

And, your rehashes haven't improved upon what has been bashed into a stalemate already. Your opinions have had their, moment, and my opinion is as above. All is well.
 
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..... There is no in game reason to kill anyone past that.......

I'd call a million credits reward "a reason" to PvP / PK in game ;)

But apart from the rare bounty hunting opportunities versus human players, then no. No real reason.
As far as I am aware not even PP added anything to that - as all of PP is done via PvE actions (though RP as you stated can be used - but it's not rewarded).
 
And, your rehashes haven't improved upon what has been bashed into a stalemate already. Your opinions have had their, moment, and my opinion is as above. All is well.

Right, to your opinion:

There is no reason open should be prioritized, incentivized, or subsidized.

But what I was saying is that Solo as the game stands now IS prioritized and incentivized, because you make far more consistent money, and thus ship upgrades. Oh no, here we goes again, down this trail...I need to stop...it's fruitless!

*poof*
 
Um Don't people try to do that exact same thing? And sometimes the manufacturer actually listens.

You might want to google up "New Coke" :p

(Or NGE, for what matters. It was based on the devs finding out that most players preferred a game closer to WoW, and trying to please them by making large changes to the game. After all, no dev in his own mind wants his game to fail.)

The game does have meat(pvp), in it. I enjoy a fair amount of pvp in the game. It's not particularly balanced or plentiful, but it's certainly not absent. Now with CQC the devs are adding more meat, just the wrong kind imo.

And that is debatable. CQC looks like the exact flavor of PvP I like best, where the matches are (supposed to be) balanced and everyone has explicitly agreed to take part. Whereas I find the kind of PvP that Open has impossible to swallow.

Except for PP undermining, PvP is rewarded the same as it's PvE equivalent. Idk about CZ fighting, Does anyone know if combat zone kills against players are rewarded? I think they are but i'm not positive.

Even if they are, the death penalty just isn't designed to support a mainly PvP game, or in other words one where you don't have traders working a PvE role and injecting credits into the system. To big a credit sink with each death, coupled with the loss of uncashed earnings. If a CZ has a few players on each side attempting to earn credits by killing the opposing players, the most likely result is that everyone will end poorer.

Thus, the very tuning of the game seems to point that PvP should be "rare and meaningful" — because if it becomes common, I believe it will break the game in Open.

It is one of the "issues" with games like EVE, where PvP is possible most anywhere and a loss in PvP can be devastating; it forces the devs to tune the game so PvP fights are rare and far between, because otherwise the game implodes. But for many PvPers that slower engagement pace is boring.
 
I haven't posted here for a bit, but I was thinking about this again the other day and felt like updating/adding some thoughts.

Problem 1: Switching between Solo and Open


I have no problem with people being able to choose whether they want to play in Open or Solo, as both are valid ways to play the game. However, being able to switch between them at a whim when things don't exactly go your way is a problem. They need to at least have separate save files, and I wouldn't be against having to choose one or the other. Now I'm not saying that after you pick Solo or Open you should be stuck there forever. There should be an ability to transfer your save file from one to the other, say for a fee and a cooldown period (ex. server transfers in WoW) to avoid abuse (also, a consistent revenue stream for fdev). But to go in Open, have things go your way for a while (i.e. successful pirating, combat PvP, etc.), and then retreat to Solo once you are outclassed or someone comes to punish you is just unfair. It would be like going to rob someone for their money, then once the cops show up you are able to just teleport out of that situation to avoid ever suffering potential consequences. And you are able to do this as many times as you want.

You are not transfering between servers.. you are playing different modes of the same server. If I want to be by myself I'm in solo, if I want to play with friends I can, if I want to play with strangers, I can do that too. You want to restrict everyone for having issues with a few. This is not how you solve that problem.


Problem 2: Private groups vs. Open


I think this is one of the reasons Open seems so empty most of the time. Lots of people have their own private groups and play with each other, separate from the Open world. This is why the addition of guilds won't really do anything to help this problem, as guilds will just end up playing in their own private group most of the time. Stop separating the playerbase! If you want to play with other players, you play in Open, period. Instead of having a private group mode, how about players/guilds should be able to control their own systems within Open? Maybe have player-created permits that can be handed out at their discretion. How about adding the possibility of creating counterfeit permits to get illegal access in order to pirate the area? So many interesting possibilities and emergent gameplay potential here.

Get rid of the those in open with the attitude that they can do what ever to who ever and the universe is their plaything they play there way then whine when no one wants to play with them anymore. The mess in open is not the problem of those who play in solo or those who play in group. This is not EVE.. this is ED where you can play in groups. YOU keep wanting people in open then work on getting rid of those causing people to leave it, NOT trying to hamstring every other mode just to get more into yours.

Problem 3: Huge inefficiency in Open


One of the biggest problems in Open is that it is pretty much always the worst mode to make money in. Want to bounty hunt? The scaling in RES is almost non-existent as the number of players increases, and everyone is fighting to get the bounty credits for each limited spawn. But in solo? Every wanted NPC pirate is yours to kill. No need to worry about another player stealing your kill, ever. Want to trade? In Open, you may be pirated, meaning you lose some of that precious money. In Open, you may not be able to dock right away, you may have to wait a few minutes for someone to leave. In Solo, no need to worry. As I said before: if you are looking to make the most CR/hour, you would have to be an idiot and/or unknowledgeable to grind in Open, which leads me to the next problem.

If there are a lot of people at a RES.. there are no other RES's? Just that one for everyone to try to make money at?


Problem 4: No middle class in Open


I usually only see two extremes of players in Open: the harmless sidewinder, and the kitted out python/clipper/conda. In other words, the inexperienced player who doesn't know any better, and the end-game player with a fully kitted out vessel looking for some action. Most of those in the middle who are experienced are grinding to their next ship in Solo for max CR/hour. Now I can't confirm this as I don't know the numbers. However, I know that if I personally want to make 4-5 million CR per hour consistently without worrying about being blown up in my D-grade ship, Solo is by far the best option. Add some damn incentives to play in Open, because as it stands right now there are so many downsides and limitations that it's just frustrating, especially if you are not fully kitted out.

Those downsides are as I talked about before.. the jerks and greifers.. Open made it's own mess and wants the other modes to be punished because of it.
 
You might want to google up "New Coke" :p

(Or NGE, for what matters. It was based on the devs finding out that most players preferred a game closer to WoW, and trying to please them by making large changes to the game. After all, no dev in his own mind wants his game to fail.)
For every change-up that's leads to failure there's one that leads to success. You have a point that listening too much to your customers, is bad, but ignoring them completely is just as bad.

And that is debatable. CQC looks like the exact flavor of PvP I like best, where the matches are (supposed to be) balanced and everyone has explicitly agreed to take part. Whereas I find the kind of PvP that Open has impossible to swallow.
I find a simple arena, where there's nothing to lose, nothing to gain kinda boring when we have this great big galaxy to play in. It doesnt really do the game justice imo. Although if it gets rid of the supershield spam meta, currently plaguing pvp, it could be fun.


Even if they are, the death penalty just isn't designed to support a mainly PvP game, or in other words one where you don't have traders working a PvE role and injecting credits into the system. To big a credit sink with each death, coupled with the loss of uncashed earnings. If a CZ has a few players on each side attempting to earn credits by killing the opposing players, the most likely result is that everyone will end poorer.

Thus, the very tuning of the game seems to point that PvP should be "rare and meaningful" — because if it becomes common, I believe it will break the game in Open.

It is one of the "issues" with games like EVE, where PvP is possible most anywhere and a loss in PvP can be devastating; it forces the devs to tune the game so PvP fights are rare and far between, because otherwise the game implodes. But for many PvPers that slower engagement pace is boring.
I'm not going to disagree with this, in fact you're right, that's the problem. It's all risk, no reward. Instead of having a system that balances the risk reward of pvp and pve, we have one that completely ignores it. The tagline for pvp isnt "rare and meaningful" it's, "if you don't like pvp, don't play open".
 
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I'd call a million credits reward "a reason" to PvP / PK in game ;)

But apart from the rare bounty hunting opportunities versus human players, then no. No real reason.
As far as I am aware not even PP added anything to that - as all of PP is done via PvE actions (though RP as you stated can be used - but it's not rewarded).

Where is that available? Killing a bountied player? Good luck finding one...unless they want you to kill them. In chasing down someone for that million creds I can make 20-40 mill trading...I can do something in PP and support a Power...heck, I can grind out 10-15 mill in an RES.

I get the funsy of saying I killed x for 1 mill...oh wait...not here....no naming and shaming.

Not worth it to me....or any other player I know.

Sorry, I know your example was semi-sarcstic...but that apparently is good enough reasons for some folks.
 
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You are not transfering between servers.. you are playing different modes of the same server. If I want to be by myself I'm in solo, if I want to play with friends I can, if I want to play with strangers, I can do that too. You want to restrict everyone for having issues with a few. This is not how you solve that problem.

Yes, I know that's the way it is and it will probably not change, but I still don't agree with the concept for reasons mentioned many times in this thread. I can't imagine any MMO being successful over time with this mindset because it's too easy to exploit for personal gain.

Get rid of the those in open with the attitude that they can do what ever to who ever and the universe is their plaything they play there way then whine when no one wants to play with them anymore. The mess in open is not the problem of those who play in solo or those who play in group. This is not EVE.. this is ED where you can play in groups. YOU keep wanting people in open then work on getting rid of those causing people to leave it, NOT trying to hamstring every other mode just to get more into yours.

Open isn't a mess because of a few griefers, it's a mess because there are many downsides with few (if any) benefits when it comes to making money or grinding merits, which is sadly the extent of the current game, other than blowing random people up.

If there are a lot of people at a RES.. there are no other RES's? Just that one for everyone to try to make money at?

Yes there are, but the RES's near my home area are some of the best ones I've found. Even if I could find other ones, there's just no point. It's way too easy to just log out, log into Solo, and viola.

Those downsides are as I talked about before.. the jerks and greifers.. Open made it's own mess and wants the other modes to be punished because of it.

That reminds me: the only thing I have a problem with are those killing random noob sidewinders for no reason. Like any other successful MMO, there needs to be protections for new players so that they don't just get randomly blown up by other players.
 
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Yes, I know that's the way it is and it will probably not change, but I still don't agree with the concept for reasons mentioned many times in this thread. I can't imagine any MMO being successful over time with this mindset because it's too easy to exploit for personal gain.

How about taking off the MMO goggle and look at the game itself without any goggle?
 
Yes, I know that's the way it is and it will probably not change, but I still don't agree with the concept for reasons mentioned many times in this thread. I can't imagine any MMO being successful over time with this mindset because it's too easy to exploit for personal gain.



Open isn't a mess because of a few griefers, it's a mess because there are many downsides with few (if any) benefits when it comes to making money or grinding merits, which is sadly the extent of the current game, other than blowing random people up.



Yes there are, but the RES's near my home area are some of the best ones I've found. Even if I could find other ones, there's just no point. It's way too easy to just log out, log into Solo, and viola.



That reminds me: the only thing I have a problem with are those killing random noob sidewinders for no reason. Like any other successful MMO, there needs to be protections for new players so that they don't just get randomly blown up by other players.


The only difference in solo/group/open is human players.. if open is a mess it is not because of anything else other than humans. You say it is way to easy to go into solo.. no it isn't.. it is the same as any other mod.
 
And if i thought pvp should be a required skill of the game, I'd be soooo burned right now.


Jordan, you flippantly replied to my post to Derrida as follows:

DERRIDA "some players may not have the skills to play in open, but he does not claim that these skills are more than the skills required for solo, just that they are specific to open."

me: "It takes great patience to have a trade goal and accomplish it over a period of months."

you: "I don't need that skill, i have netflix"

me: "This is the best post yet to turn around on you and tell you that I don't need the skills of PvP; I have the modes."

I thought my reply was given in the same sort of flippancy your response to my reply to Derrida was given.


The aim of the thread is not (supposed) to be "buring" someone; it is to argue design decisions. Perhaps my mistake was in using the same style of response as yours.
 
Instead of having a private group mode, how about players/guilds should be able to control their own systems within Open? Maybe have player-created permits that can be handed out at their discretion. How about adding the possibility of creating counterfeit permits to get illegal access in order to pirate the area?

This is one of the shadow issues behind all this mode-changing talk.

The "we need guilds" crew is angling for the same kind of control of space that EvE had and which FD and DB have explicitly said they will not allow.

It's too bad we can't get to the real issues and positions in this cloud of smoke and mirrors.

- - - Updated - - -

The only difference in solo/group/open is human players.. if open is a mess it is not because of anything else other than humans. You say it is way to easy to go into solo.. no it isn't.. it is the same as any other mod.

*tips hat to Mouse* This is what I meant by getting to the real issues (underlining, mine)
 
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This is one of the shadow issues behind all this mode-changing talk.

The "we need guilds" crew is angling for the same kind of control of space that Eve had and which FD and DB have explicitly said they will not allow.

It's too bad we can't get to the real issues and positions in this cloud of smoke and mirrors.

And, how many times do you ask one of the open-only guys a direct question only to receive silence or derision? For many of them they know there has to be a cover story. It's telling when they let something slip and have to recover.
 
The only difference in solo/group/open is human players.. if open is a mess it is not because of anything else other than humans. You say it is way to easy to go into solo.. no it isn't.. it is the same as any other mod.

You are right, open is a mess due to humans, the humans who designed the game.
 
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