Exactly. A human pilot can be just as bad - if not more so - than the weakest AI. Similarly, the reverse can potentially be true - and now that Wings is here, any possible differences are null and void, regardless. NPCs can gang up on you and negate any such perceived weaknesses with sheer numbers. If anything, I'd expect a an NPC group to actually be more cohesive than a group of human pilots, because the AI would then be operating as a singular entity.
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It would help if we knew how many people play each mode and how many take part in the challenge thingys. I don't even read the galnet often and haven't much of a clue what Luge is about. I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't take part in the events the devs stir up.
I just take part in the goals my wing group in mobius comes up with. Since we defend alliance space nothing official ever happens there. 78 Ursae Majoris was mentioned as a warzone the other day. But the announcement came after the war was already over lol. It just surfaced and disappeared within a couple of hours and the galnet was a day late. That was the one time I thought I might take part in something because my home base is next door in the Alliance capital and I am a member of the Alliance defence force.
Actually I seem to recall one of our members asking if we should take part in the Luge thing but apparently the alliance didn't want to get involved and forbade it in the galnet so we followed those orders.
I just take part in the goals my wing group in mobius comes up with. Since we defend alliance space nothing official ever happens there. 78 Ursae Majoris was mentioned as a warzone the other day. But the announcement came after the war was already over lol. It just surfaced and disappeared within a couple of hours and the galnet was a day late. That was the one time I thought I might take part in something because my home base is next door in the Alliance capital and I am a member of the Alliance defence force.
Actually I seem to recall one of our members asking if we should take part in the Luge thing but apparently the alliance didn't want to get involved and forbade it in the galnet so we followed those orders.
Entity? It's a bunch of scripts, it cannot think nor perceive and therefore calling it an "entity" is a bit of a stretch.
I find these appeals on difficulty of game AI to be ludicrous, to put it mildly. And all I see are fringe examples, of players so bad or new at the game that a script can beat them, or of these mythical super NPCs that can compare with ace players. Even if there were such NPCs, by the lack of whining and crying on the forums I'd say they're exceedingly rare.
More likely it is the disparity between ships. Sidewinders getting fried by Elite Anacondas is not an example of how difficult NPCs can get.
To illustrate this fallacy;
Zmidponk said:
Because player pirates will, unlike NPCs, follow you. They won't dissappear if you manage to get away. They will know your name. They will scan your wake, and they will interdict you again, and again and again. They will single you out amongst a sea of NPC traders because chances are you're carrying much juicier cargo in much greater quantities. They will use teamwork, again unlike NPCs, they will plan and they will - most importantly - think.
That is how a trade run through a pirate infested system is much more difficult in Open than in solo. Don't believe me? Try it yourself. I hear Lave is a good place to start.
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As much as i don't want to see any differences to be made (gamewise) between solo and open, i can completely understand the problem that the "open faction" has in regards to community goals.
This is my result at the end of "the reclamation of Lugh".
there was no capital ship involved, i didn't even visit it to have a look.
Now, before everyone shouts "see how unfair solo mode is", i put a LOT of time in this.
So, there are two "unfair" aspects in this which are pushing each other: "solo" and "no life".
So, what are the drawbacks in a "open" CZ?
Case 1): Instance dominated by opposing faction.
Well, you might guess the downside.
Case 2): Instance dominated by your own faction.
Simply no targets.
So, if anyone can think of a solution that
a) makes it somewhat even for the "open" players
b) doesn't "punish" the people playing in "solo"
i'd be much interested in those ideas.
As long as there isn't a way which doesn't limit my gameplay in "solo", i have to speak against any changes... sorry
Edit: Oooops...wrong picture uploaded. But there wasn't any change after that for my count.
This is my result at the end of "the reclamation of Lugh".
there was no capital ship involved, i didn't even visit it to have a look.
Now, before everyone shouts "see how unfair solo mode is", i put a LOT of time in this.
So, there are two "unfair" aspects in this which are pushing each other: "solo" and "no life".
So, what are the drawbacks in a "open" CZ?
Case 1): Instance dominated by opposing faction.
Well, you might guess the downside.
Case 2): Instance dominated by your own faction.
Simply no targets.
So, if anyone can think of a solution that
a) makes it somewhat even for the "open" players
b) doesn't "punish" the people playing in "solo"
i'd be much interested in those ideas.
As long as there isn't a way which doesn't limit my gameplay in "solo", i have to speak against any changes... sorry
Edit: Oooops...wrong picture uploaded. But there wasn't any change after that for my count.
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Your argument doesn't stand just because you say it does, and here's why. Except for the few 'core' systems in solo it is very unlikely you will even meet another player in Open, never mind one who wants to cause you any trouble. Also, even though they are 'just' NPCs they do seem to be more persistent in Solo than they are in Open. I don't know about more difficult, but you certainly seem to run across more aggressive NPCs in Solo than you do peaceful NPCs. This more than makes up for the extra minute chance of meeting an aggressive player in the less populated areas of Open. Yet again you are projecting opinion as fact.
As long as there isn't a way which doesn't limit my gameplay in "solo", i have to speak against any changes... sorry
Would you consider getting paid for your efforts like everyone else, including bonuses, but not having your kills count for the goal score limiting your gameplay?
Being interdicted again and again and again by the same annoying person is the best reason i have heard to play in a mode other than open. They should do something to reduce this kind of behaviour just like they should find ways to reduce combat logging. Incessant interdiction seems like an exploit to me, especially if NPC s can't or won't do it.
Boom. Mistake right here. I'm not talking about just any system. I'm talking about community goals, opposing ones at that, where your chances of not only meeting other players, but hostile ones, are very high.
Come on man, have you even been to Lugh in Open? Even NPC spawns in supercruise get crazy to the point of inducing graphical lag, there's so many of them.
This is your theory. I haven't heard anything like that from players playing Solo. And unless solo NPCs are persistent to the tune that they can follow you out of the local instance into supercruise, and even chase you across systems, down to stations, and wait for you to undock, or have two wingmen chase you out into supercruise only for the third one to interdict you right after you "escaped" because he was waiting for you there, then they're not persistent the way players are.
Ever had an NPC ship outrun you, jump into supercruise, then jump right back in with full shields?
Didn't think so.
As much as i don't want to see any differences to be made (gamewise) between solo and open, i can completely understand the problem that the "open faction" has in regards to community goals.
This is my result at the end of "the reclamation of Lugh".
there was no capital ship involved, i didn't even visit it to have a look.
http://i.imgur.com/X6x65Rq.jpg?1
Now, before everyone shouts "see how unfair solo mode is", i put a LOT of time in this.
So, there are two "unfair" aspects in this which are pushing each other: "solo" and "no life".
So, what are the drawbacks in a "open" CZ?
Case 1): Instance dominated by opposing faction.
Well, you might guess the downside.
Case 2): Instance dominated by your own faction.
Simply no targets.
So, if anyone can think of a solution that
a) makes it somewhat even for the "open" players
b) doesn't "punish" the people playing in "solo"
i'd be much interested in those ideas.
As long as there isn't a way which doesn't limit my gameplay in "solo", i have to speak against any changes... sorry
Edit: Oooops...wrong picture uploaded. But there wasn't any change after that for my count.
Solo and private group are simply bad for the game. If anyone has any doubt, load up a ship with turrets, go into solo, find a cap ship and put your ship on rotate using FA, turrets on fire at will.. The game plays itself. Only really possible in solo.
But no doubt as many people have said, we can't actually fight against others if they are in solo or private group so kinda makes the war result somewhat skewed.
Like i said before in this thread: Yes, absolutely.
I didn't take part for the money, i could have made five times as much if i had invested the time in trading.
Look, taking part in such content is a vital thing for every player, even in solo play.
If you take away the minimal influence a pilot can make, what is left of the game?
I don't need credits at the moment, i have everything i need and a good ammount on top of that.
If i wanted, i could sell my ships, buy a Vulture and go to "open" on a killing spree without having to worry about insurance for months.
But i don't want to / i can't do it for RL reasons.
Still i want to play the game without feeling to be cut off from the evolving galaxy.
NPC can't do it because they cease to exist when you exit your local instance. As for why you don't like to play in open, that is your choice. My point is that NPCs are not, nor can ever be, as difficult to deal with as players.
Unless FD manage to create a self-aware AI, but I kinda think that would be overkill for a game studio.
you think it's bad for the game.
but i know it's good for me
Well each to their own but I don't get any sense of fulfilment from a game which poses zero challenge and doesn't even require a faceroll to farm rating and credits. As I speak the game is literally playing itself.
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Logging out through the menu isn't bannable in any shape or way, the 15 seconds you had to go through without fighting back is already the built in 'punishment' Frontier included for doing that, so you are in the clear; if Frontier ever decides that those 15 seconds aren't 'punishment' enough they can always increase the timer, but even then as long as you go through the menu you should never be punished. The combat logging that can potentially get you some hot water is when you kill the process to instantly log off, bypassing the count down.
It isn't cheating, and never will be. Frontier has full control over how logging off through the menu goes, and how long it takes, making that process fully compliant with the rules of the game as defined by the devs.
This only applies to when the player doesn't log off through the menu, when the player kills his or her client in order to bypass the countdown. Logging off through the menu is always deliberate, but at the same time the player already went through the official 'punishment' for logging off in the middle of action (the countdown).
But you want that galaxy all to yourself.
Look, sorry - nothing personal - but when it comes to competing community goals, to Open players who care about the outcome of the fight, you're a cheater. You, and others like you, are steamrolling us and we can't do a damn thing about it except watch. FD might as well plop you in Open and make you invulnerable, that way we can at least appreciate the spectacle.
But as I said - I don't blame you. I blame FD.
With our AI NPC designer, we may be surprised what can be done...Go Sarah Jane Avory!
While I have no doubt NPC AI can be improved, she is a game programmer. The end result will be, albeit more complex, scripts. Not an entity that can equate to a thinking human.
If she can make a true AI, I would suggest she quits her job at FD and joins the current efforts to create one, because we need it. ED can wait.
Well, that's what all AI is. Good AI is just code which happens to be very efficient and good at what it does. Doesn't mean it has to be complicated. So, multiple ships acting as a group, yes, should effectively be acting as one in a miniature swarm. It also means they should be co-ordinating a lot better than a group of human pilots would be, because there's no lag in co-ordinating tactics.
Well, again, good for you, but I use the example of my friend, yet again. He's a good pilot - even played every single version of 'Elite', back when they first got released. Yet, the game repeatedly hurls decent and very aggressive 'Dangerous' AI at him. That's not a "fringe example". It's happening a lot. You can be a really great pilot, but if you're stuck in a Sidewinder/Hauler and you're suddenly set upon by a particularly aggressive NPC which has good armament, it won't count for much. Especially if they're in a Viper/Cobra - or even worse, something like a Python, Vulture, etcetera. Waiting for your FSD to spool up is great, but if your shields are getting shredded in just a few seconds, that tin-foil row-boat you're trying to cruise the stars with isn't going to last very long.
And if you're set upon by an entire group of them, it's going to be a good deal worse.
I'm in an Asp and I've upgraded it to a decent level, but I know that if that kept happening to me half as much as it somehow does to him, it would be very frustrating (and I had a worrying encounter with a lone NPC Viper, the other day, which forced me to run). Coming along and, to all intents and purposes, going, "Pah! You're just not very good! It's sooo easy..." Well, respectfully, that can come across as a little patronising, because it's not true.
Again, if you don't have trouble, that's great.
Right now, I'm not having much trouble, either. But categorising solo as easy and open as some kind of base standard? It's illusionary. I only ever play in open and have only ever been interdicted by NPCs. Therefore, my experience would be no different to if I had been in solo (and, yes, other human pilots are shown on my scanner; they're just not choosing to undertake piracy). I'm honestly not seeing any realistic data which proves solo players are having some kind of massive impact on open players. I've also seen a lot of You Tube footage of PVP and it really doesn't seem tremendously different to the high-ranking NPC opponents I've fought against, either (in a few cases, they're actually much worse).
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As much as i don't want to see any differences to be made (gamewise) between solo and open, i can completely understand the problem that the "open faction" has in regards to community goals.
This is my result at the end of "the reclamation of Lugh".
there was no capital ship involved, i didn't even visit it to have a look.
http://i.imgur.com/X6x65Rq.jpg?1
Now, before everyone shouts "see how unfair solo mode is", i put a LOT of time in this.
So, there are two "unfair" aspects in this which are pushing each other: "solo" and "no life".
So, what are the drawbacks in a "open" CZ?
Case 1): Instance dominated by opposing faction.
Well, you might guess the downside.
Case 2): Instance dominated by your own faction.
Simply no targets.
So, if anyone can think of a solution that
a) makes it somewhat even for the "open" players
b) doesn't "punish" the people playing in "solo"
i'd be much interested in those ideas.
As long as there isn't a way which doesn't limit my gameplay in "solo", i have to speak against any changes... sorry
Edit: Oooops...wrong picture uploaded. But there wasn't any change after that for my count.
I did - give people in Open a bonus. they already it do for trades, why not combat bonds and bounties? Call a "difficulty bonus". I'm totally okay with this - and this should help offset much of it.
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