The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Troels]

This will be one of the primary areas where Star Citizen fails. And all because the masses don't want realistic NPCs doing realistic operations in the sim. It is like people don't realize that NPCs are a part of the immersive experience. They just want to fly around in a world full of mindless drones and all because they don't want to compete and have to work for their money. They should put as much work into every aspect of the sim as they do into the ship details.

So SC will fail because it doesn't do something that the majority of people doesn't want it to do? thats some sound logic there.

Truth is that immersion in a game, just like realism, should never stand in the way of fun. In games, people like excelling at what they're doing, realistic or not. So if you create a game, where task X is a gameplay element and any random NPC can do just as good a job at task X as you the player, then it effectively becomes impossible to really excel, and thus less fun for the majority of people (there will of course always be a masochistic minority who enjoys being mediocre).

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

So SC will fail because it doesn't do something that the majority of people doesn't want it to do? thats some sound logic there.

Truth is that immersion in a game, just like realism, should never stand in the way of fun. In games, people like excelling at what they're doing, realistic or not. So if you create a game, where task X is a gameplay element and any random NPC can do just as good a job at task X as you the player, then it effectively becomes impossible to really excel, and thus less fun for the majority of people (there will of course always be a masochistic minority who enjoys being mediocre).

I understand that English is not your first language so I'll be kind and direct you to go back and re-read that first line. Come back when you're done, I'll wait.

I am curious, exactly what genre is your experience in? You seem to not know very much about simulated environments. Anyone with a clue knows that when people play the fun above all else card a game never lasts more than 4 months because so much effort is put on empty fun that depth,replayability, and sustainment takes a backseat.

 

[SuperG]

Shouldn't they be able to do it better seeing it's their day job? The smuggler side of things I can understand wanting to do yourself.

--
It's interesting what people consider immersive, which is not to imply they're wrong but personally I always struggle with how developers allow a player character to become so heroic, ie I'm a crackshot combat pilot, a crackshot marine, a crackshot stevedore/docker, a crackshot industrialist, a crackshot cartographer, so on and so forth, and all at the same time. I find that takes me away from being immersed in a game very quickly.

Well I don't think it's that big problem. A small cargo courier little space craft. You have not much crew around so do loading yourself, But a mammoth freighter might have a larger multi crew of few dozen. Like dedicated loaders. You could manage them at a higher level. Or go full auto.

I don't excel in anything so I might hang out in my starter ship and grind slowly in safest space.
Went for a connie and salvager so I am not focusing on dogfighting.

I am although very curious about this multi crew gameplay with npc.

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Shouldn't they be able to do it better seeing it's their day job? The smuggler side of things I can understand wanting to do yourself.

--
It's interesting what people consider immersive, which is not to imply they're wrong but personally I always struggle with how developers allow a player character to become so heroic, ie I'm a crackshot combat pilot, a crackshot marine, a crackshot stevedore/docker, a crackshot industrialist, a crackshot cartographer, so on and so forth, and all at the same time. I find that takes me away from being immersed in a game very quickly.

If I'm seeing things the same way I think the answer to this is easy. The casual gamer needs to feel that they can reach elite status during their gaming campaign otherwise it is not fun for them. They need to feel like the hero that changes the outcome of everything singlehandedly. Even one of my favorite air war sims (Falcon 4) had something similar in their programming. If you you didn't fly or complete a mission after two hours the campaign took a significant turn for the worst in no time. It didn't matter that there were literally 7 or so squadrons in the theater operating as well, what you did decided the whole outcome of the war which was dumb (Thank God there is a switch to change that). So for some games they go out of their way to make the world center around you instead of you just being Joe in the crowd unless you were a part of a bigger group that can assist with doing something more significant. Case in point that operation many were doing in E where they were trying to conduct missions that would have an impact on the economical and political structure. That is what every game looking to become great should have. Not some lame leaderboard system that says absolutely nothing and does nothing significant to affect the environment as a whole. All it does it make pilots into players who lust to see their names on the board at all cost instead of staying with the real mission and having something real to show for it in the end.

Joe Smedly has 500 kills and only 120 deaths flying his 6 gun Superhornet looks pathetically insignificant compared to, "Transcorps 57th Squadron, Attack Group 12 of the 7th Fleet, has broken through the Dred Pirate blockade and inflicted significant casualties on their enemy. The squadron supported by the 13th SEAD squadron caught the Dred completely by surprise and literally smashed 5 of the Dred's stolen Idris frigates and 2 destroyers, leaving the 7th Fleet's Destroyer Squadron 5 to destroy a Dred escort carrier, and many Corvettes. The battle lasted 2 hours and now the 7th Fleet is sending supplies to the people in the system.


But back on point there is something seriously wrong with NPCs not being a significant presence in the environment.

 

[Troels]

I understand that English is not your first language so I'll be kind and direct you to go back and re-read that first line. Come back when you're done, I'll wait.

I am curious, exactly what genre is your experience in?

Always nice to start out a post with a little personal jab. But yes, I did misread your post, you didn't say that SC as a whole would fail, but merely that it would fail in the area of immersion (due to NPCs not capable of outdoing players).

Regarding your question, I would really like to know what your frame of reference is here, i.e. what games ever had NPCs capable of outdoing players? Or to answer the question of my experience, I have never played a game (to my memory), where the NPCs were as capable as the player, but apparently your experience is different, so I would very much like to know what games you are talking about?

You seem to not know very much about simulated environments. Anyone with a clue knows that when people play the fun above all else card a game never lasts more than 4 months because so much effort is put on empty fun that depth,replayability, and sustainment takes a backseat.

That's a strawman argument if ever I saw one, so I'm not even going to bother.

 

[1500]

Well seems that Ben responded to the control debate. Turns out we are getting Freelancer 2.0 but with joystick support. Its just Ben trying to change history, now its not about "click to win" that he was talking about, it was having any type of joystick support. Ya sure Ben.

Control schemes in Arena Commander are like the old joke about the weather in Texas: if you don’t like it, wait five minutes. Balancing flight control options is a big deal. It’s something we’ve been working on in pretty much every iteration of Arena Commander, and something you’ll continue to see us doing through launch (and likely well beyond launch.) The design objective remains keeping space combat in Star Citizen skill based. If anyone is telling you what we have today is the finished game, that it’s something we’re 100% happy with and that we aren’t doing anything else… then they’re trolling you. We’re going to try everything we can think of to make the control scheme work the way we want, and hopefully you’ve seen that already… what you need to understand is that sometimes these changes are going to work beautifully and sometimes they’re going to break things in new, unintended ways. We’re talking about solving a puzzle at this point, not finishing a race.

I’m a little confused about all the Freelancer references. The great debate that tore the space sim community apart in 2000 was the fact that Freelancer didn’t let you use the joystick AT ALL. You moved your ship around as though it were a cursor and the guns fired for you in the direction you wanted. When the question came up early in the campaign, the answer was obvious: that’s not what we’re going for. We envisioned Star Citizen giving you back full joystick control, as in Wing Commander… and we’ve been working towards that ever since. That doesn’t mean taking mouse control out (plenty of people played Wing Commander with the mouse) and it doesn’t mean removing gimbaled weapons (which have been in the spec since we launched.) But it does mean balancing those things so they don’t have a universal upper hand, which is what we’re working on now. (And no, it’s not ever going to be as simple as pressing the BE MORE LIKE WING COMMANDER button Star Citizen’s flight engine and end vision are both several orders of magnitude more complex than anything Wing Commander ever had to deal with.)

 

[Viking]

[...] I would very much like to know what games you are talking about?

Please, let's not go that route. This is a thread about Star Citizen after all, not ED or other games.

 

[Mu77ley]

Well seems that Ben responded to the control debate. Turns out we are getting Freelancer 2.0 but with joystick support. Its just Ben trying to change history, now its not about "click to win" that he was talking about, it was having any type of joystick support. Ya sure Ben.

That comment from Ben (if taken at face value) really drives a stake into the heart of the "BDSSE". They seem to see nothing wrong with the combined aim/movement mouse controls, and so the persistent universe of Star Citizen is going to be . It never even had a chance.

Everyone will play with mouse/keyboard as that is the only way to be competitive, and so the BDSSE becomes just another MMO with a space theme and simplistic arcadey controls. Very sad.

Not that we haven't seen this coming for over a year of course.

Squadron 42 had better be amazing, as that's the only hope left for this game...

 

[Toumal]

Yeouch. Ben's comment does not inspire confidence. Plus it's been how long? And this is the most core feature of and space sim...

We'll see where this goes i guess. But i am glad i didn't pay for any of the ships for sale.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Well the rage on SC forum is on high alert after the Lesnick confirmation of Arcadey controls in SC,I am not surprised at all,now I guess it's to late for big changes time is passed when ppl. should react in rage about it in greater numbers but hey when some of us did..it was that quote: "it's a pre pre alpha....." .To be honest I will be more pleased if I could play SC now in 3rd person view same as Freelancer it will just suit game much better as it is Arcade in it's core + at least GFX will be more visible,I am finding very stupid to be forced 2 play arcade game in FPV,well that's a next step if CIG don't do it private servers will do,then maybe it could be just fun 2 play Freelancer 2.0 if we can't play BDSSE....

 

[Nick 'Paradox' Parker]

Yeouch. Ben's comment does not inspire confidence. Plus it's been how long? And this is the most core feature of and space sim...

We'll see where this goes i guess. But i am glad i didn't pay for any of the ships for sale.

You think Ben has it bad. Disco Lando is going to be up for the bashing board soon enough with this statement:

 

[Clawhammer]

[video=youtube;cnS1k7N6Ak4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnS1k7N6Ak4[/video]

Awesome, new warp effects, tutorials, inhelmet hud etc etc very nice cig.

 

[Voivod]

Nothing like a new video to put out some fires innit.

 

[Troels]

That comment from Ben (if taken at face value) really drives a stake into the heart of the "BDSSE". They seem to see nothing wrong with the combined aim/movement mouse controls, and so the persistent universe of Star Citizen is going to be . It never even had a chance.

Everyone will play with mouse/keyboard as that is the only way to be competitive, and so the BDSSE becomes just another MMO with a space theme and simplistic arcadey controls. Very sad.

Not that we haven't seen this coming for over a year of course.

Squadron 42 had better be amazing, as that's the only hope left for this game...

Actually if you take the comment from Ben at face value, it doesn't really say anything at all, since it's about as non-committal as you can get (probably intentionally so). So to say that the statement "drives a stake into the heart of the BDSSE" you would have to read between the lines of the statement. However seeing how long this debate about controls have been going on and the lack of any real clarification of intent from CIG (further exasperated by Ben's statement), I think it's getting to the point where it is probably fair to read between the lines. I at least don't really have any major expectation that controls will change significantly from what we have now.

Also with regards to SQ42, I personally think the control issues will carry over here unfortunately. Mainly based on the fact that at least for me personally I don't think the main problem with controls is so much one of balance (between different controller setups), but more one of the "feeling" of flight, which to put it in simple terms is simply lacking (I'm not so much flying in AC, as much simply rotating).

 

[Skizomeuh]

"Omagad! breath in the helmet"
"Omagad! Doors open"
-_-!

Quite impressive, but it's insane how once the ship move it ruins every suspension of disbelief. I still don't feel I'm seeing a ship taking off, just a cam strafing up without any sense of acceleration, mass or whatever. The distant ship taking off don't seem to behave the same the player's ship is. How? Why?.

In ED it's hard to get the sense of scale, in SC it seems more and more harder. Though, it's pretty, yeah.

 

[Troels]

"Omagad! breath in the helmet"
"Omagad! Doors open"
-_-!

Quite impressive, but it's insane how once the ship move it ruins every suspension of disbelief. I still don't feel I'm seeing a ship taking off, just a cam strafing up without any sense of acceleration, mass or whatever. The distant ship taking off don't seem to behave the same the player's ship is. How? Why?.

In ED it's hard to get the sense of scale, in SC it seems more and more harder. Though, it's pretty, yeah.

The ship in the distance is probably scripted, alternatively I suppose you could argue that things will be a bit wonky, since the tutorial takes place inside the asteroid hangar, which would be an artificial gravity environment.

 

[Clawhammer]

"Omagad! breath in the helmet"
"Omagad! Doors open"
-_-!

Quite impressive, but it's insane how once the ship move it ruins every suspension of disbelief. I still don't feel I'm seeing a ship taking off, just a cam strafing up without any sense of acceleration, mass or whatever. The distant ship taking off don't seem to behave the same the player's ship is. How? Why?.

In ED it's hard to get the sense of scale, in SC it seems more and more harder. Though, it's pretty, yeah.

Ships
- Ship throttle is too sensitive when taking off

Under known issues: https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/255962/ptu-1-1-2-patch-notes so i think that will get improvements.

 

[philux]

"Omagad! breath in the helmet"
"Omagad! Doors open"
-_-!

Quite impressive, but it's insane how once the ship move it ruins every suspension of disbelief. I still don't feel I'm seeing a ship taking off, just a cam strafing up without any sense of acceleration, mass or whatever. The distant ship taking off don't seem to behave the same the player's ship is. How? Why?.

You can exactly take-off and maneuver as the NPC-controlled ship if you use an analog input device for lateral and vertical thrusters. Obviously, the person recording the footage didn't do that, i.e., he controls his thrusters with a binary switch.

 

[Mu77ley]

"Omagad! breath in the helmet"
"Omagad! Doors open"
-_-!

Quite impressive, but it's insane how once the ship move it ruins every suspension of disbelief. I still don't feel I'm seeing a ship taking off, just a cam strafing up without any sense of acceleration, mass or whatever. The distant ship taking off don't seem to behave the same the player's ship is. How? Why?.

In ED it's hard to get the sense of scale, in SC it seems more and more harder. Though, it's pretty, yeah.

The problem is that they've got very simplistic keyboard input processing, so tapping the "strafe up" button, immediately gives you 100% thrust in the upwards direction. They need to fix the controls so that holding the buttons down gradually increases thrust. This is also partially caused by the fact that the thrusters are still waaaay too powerful, something we've been banging on about since Arena Commander was launched.

Of course, this is irrelevant in combat as you just hit "match speed" and then forget about using thrusters completely until you change targets after you've mouse-clicked them to death.

 

[philux]

The problem is that they've got very simplistic input processing, so tapping the "strafe up" button, immediately gives you 100% thrust in the upwards direction. They need to fix the controls so that holding the buttons down gradually increases thrust. This is also partially caused by the fact that the thrusters are still waaaay too powerful, something we've been banging on about since Arena Commander was launched.

Of course, this is irrelevant in combat as you just hit "match speed" and then forget about using thrusters completely until you change targets after you've mouse-clicked them to death.

You just have to use analog input axes for all analog in-game axes. Similarly, you wouldn't expect to do as well in a racing game using a keyboard vs. someone that uses a racing wheel and pedals.