The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Memnoch]

And its the PU side of things that concerns me the most. I have no doubt they can do a great looking FPS with the resources at their disposal. The whole space travel thing is the kicker for me though. How are they going to represent realistic sized star systems? Are they going to be an abstraction instead? And how will travel between them work i.e. will it be be free-flight, go where you will or will it be gates and tunnels between systems?

I'd like to see something from RSI/CIG/whoever that goes into some detail on how they plan to get this going.

 

[Mu77ley]

How are they going to represent realistic sized star systems?

They're not. Even the planets are supposedly only going to be about 1:10 scale.

And how will travel between them work i.e. will it be be free-flight, go where you will or will it be gates and tunnels between systems?

From the very little information they've given about how this stuff works, they seem to be going the EVE Online style jump-gate route.

 

[SuperG]

As SC is somewhat the spiritual sequel or remake of several CR related franchises.
Privateer and freelancer for the sandbox part. As I recall the sandbox is hand designed and not on scale. So what to expect . Not a sandbox on real scale. Which is oksy. Stargates jumppoints and tunnels work just fine.
But as it wil be more or less a remake it desn't have to be the same formula but can have twist or more.

PCG is a large fiel just like AI and physics. Also it not exclude the other you can mix it in.
It has huge production value as delivers huge quantity and that with smaller art team cost.

PCG is very scalable it s how complex you make the algoritm to generate something.
CiG going to use PCG to it start on R&D level and where it is very suitable it wil be used.

So PCG can look very generatic. But that not because due to the PCG solution but the complexity and implementation of the algoritm. So PCG can also look very detailed to cm.

Also the use of PCG you can make game pure or non or some parts with it.
But some part could use PCG also partly. Instead a Seed you can use to steer the outcome with data.

Also PCG could be used as basis for design tool which get refined hand crafted and tweaked and balanced. In this case PCG can be very generatic but the hand craften change that.

CR is aware of PCG but not a dev who used it in big way before. But I am sure he knows the value of it.
As SC will be also using it in the long run.

As for EVE don't know that game so I take freelancer as reference. And privateer. Before I go to other games which CR has nothing to do with.
and lean in big way on PCG.
ED vs NML vs space engine vs LT.

 

[Troels]

Why are you going off topic? What does ED have to do with anything? Is this the only thing you can do? Attempt to put down another game when someone talks about SC? Heck it was not even a criticism of SC. Defensive much? SC has been stated to be trying for a 1:10 scale, with EVE style jump points. This has been known for some time.

Personally, I actually prefer the fact that they are going with fixed jump point, rather than the free-form star system travel we have in ED. Reason being that fixed jump point serves as funnels which creates predictable patterns for both players and NPC, which can then be exploited by other players thereby leading to emergent gameplay.

For instance fixed jump points mean that people will tend to follow the same paths through space when going from point A to point B, which can be exploited by pirates, who can lie in wait at the halfway point (the intended victim can of course always choose a different route, at the cost of time and fuel). Or you might have one group of people trying to blockade a jump point and another group trying to break said blockade.

None of the above will really happen with a free form jump system like what ED has (at least not as far as I can tell). Instead the action will tend to coalesce around the other POIs in the game (stations, asteroid fields etc.)

 

[Voivod]

Personally, I actually prefer the fact that they are going with fixed jump point, rather than the free-form star system travel we have in ED. Reason being that fixed jump point serves as funnels which creates predictable patterns for both players and NPC, which can then be exploited by other players thereby leading to emergent gameplay.

For instance fixed jump points mean that people will tend to follow the same paths through space when going from point A to point B, which can be exploited by pirates, who can lie in wait at the halfway point (the intended victim can of course always choose a different route, at the cost of time and fuel). Or you might have one group of people trying to blockade a jump point and another group trying to break said blockade.

None of the above will really happen with a free form jump system like what ED has (at least not as far as I can tell). Instead the action will tend to coalesce around the other POIs in the game (stations, asteroid fields etc.)

Lol I've never seen so many words typed for someone just to say they like gatecamps

I like gatecamps too... but it's more often than not a rather boring way of getting PvP content.
A game should have a lot more interesting ways of providing you with that.

We don't even know how the mechanics of jumping through will work so we don't even know if gatecamps will be possible.
In fact there's way too much speculation about numerous SC mechanics which makes comparing them to ED (most of the time just as a means to bash ED) completely pointless to any meaningful conversation.

Let's wait and see how they implement stuff.

 

[Troels]

Lol I've never seen so many words typed for someone just to say they like gatecamps

I like gatecamps too... but it's more often than not a rather boring way of getting PvP content.
A game should have a lot more interesting ways of providing you with that.

We don't even know how the mechanics of jumping through will work so we don't even know if gatecamps will be possible.
In fact there's way too much speculation about numerous SC mechanics which makes comparing them to ED (most of the time just as a means to bash ED) completely pointless to any meaningful conversation.

Let's wait and see how they implement stuff.

Gatecamping, as you call it, probably isn't 100% possible in SC due to instancing. Also I didn't intend to bash ED, it was merely the most obvious example of a game where the above isn't possible.

And as far as the above being gate camping I suppose you might be right, but then again you could also talk about station camping, asteroid field camping, combat zone or really any POI camping. Truth is that players who are interested in pvp, will naturally tend to hang around (camp) spots where other players pass by.

The reason jump gate camping is different in SC from say camping a POI in ED, is that it has consequences. In ED players camping an area doesn't really affect other players since there is always another star system you can go to instead, but in SC jump gate camping will block players from that area, which may very well have significant consequences, given that there are only 110 star system and thus limited resources.

It's IMHO a case of less is more, since limited resources (and the ability to control the flow of these resources), is really the core element of emergent gameplay.

 

[Antigonos]

Thanks for that information. I'm kind of surprised that they are adding in an FPS module before they are giving you a galaxy to explore. This persistent universe sounds intriguing and I hope it works out for them. Being able to travel around in your ships would be my priority. I guess the distinction to make here, with regards to the FPS module, is that they already have a first person mode working as you can wander around inside your ships right now. I assume they mean actual combat.

well if you look at the threads in the elite forum, im not so sure anymore if people even want to travel through space in a space game. it more looks like they want to buy stuff, see a cutscene (being able to switch that off) and then be on the next station to sell their stuff again ...

 

[Zetta]

In EVE it works because of no instancing, everyone is forced to go through the same bottleneck or find another route. With SC's instancing it will have far less effect imo.

 

[Voivod]

The reason jump gate camping is different in SC from say camping a POI in ED, is that it has consequences. In ED players camping an area doesn't really affect other players since there is always another star system you can go to instead, but in SC jump gate camping will block players from that area, which may very well have significant consequences, given that there are only 110 star system and thus limited resources.

But again this is speculating. We don't know how it will work in SC.
You're comparing something that could exist in SC (making assumptions) with something that does exist in ED.

We really don't know how it's going to work and I'm pretty sure CIG just has a vague idea of how it'll work.
My guess is they'll partly copy EvE Online mechanics... but I can't see how that will work with only 110 systems without causing a carebear uproar on the forums.

 

[rolling]

Gatecamping, as you call it, probably isn't 100% possible in SC due to instancing. Also I didn't intend to bash ED, it was merely the most obvious example of a game where the above isn't possible.

And as far as the above being gate camping I suppose you might be right, but then again you could also talk about station camping, asteroid field camping, combat zone or really any POI camping. Truth is that players who are interested in pvp, will naturally tend to hang around (camp) spots where other players pass by.

The reason jump gate camping is different in SC from say camping a POI in ED, is that it has consequences. In ED players camping an area doesn't really affect other players since there is always another star system you can go to instead, but in SC jump gate camping will block players from that area, which may very well have significant consequences, given that there are only 110 star system and thus limited resources.

It's IMHO a case of less is more, since limited resources (and the ability to control the flow of these resources), is really the core element of emergent gameplay.

So jumpgates are better because it allows for better PVP but "stations, aseroid field, combat zone or really any POI" also allows camping?
So what was it again why you prefer jumpgates then?
This really is a strange thread.

 

[Troels]

But again this is speculating. We don't know how it will work in SC.
You're comparing something that could exist in SC (making assumptions) with something that does exist in ED.

We really don't know how it's going to work and I'm pretty sure CIG just has a vague idea of how it'll work.
My guess is they'll partly copy EvE Online mechanics... but I can't see how that will work with only 110 systems without causing a carebear uproar on the forums.

I admit that I'm speculating and as I wrote it won't be 100% effective either way due to instancing (Zetta also mentioned this). With that being said I think it's fair to say that resources in SC will be more limited than in ED due to the natural difference of having 110 systems versus 400 billion systems (although CIG could certainly mess this up by having very high respawn rates for resources).

So jumpgates are better because it allows for better PVP but "stations, aseroid field, combat zone or really any POI" also allows camping?
So what was it again why you prefer jumpgates then?
This really is a strange thread.

Yes this is indeed a strange thread, especially if you don't actually read what people write. I never said jump gates are better than "stations, asteroid field, combat zone or really any POI", nor did I ever say that I prefer jump gates over any of those things. I said I prefered jump gates over no jump gates, but that does not mean that pvp at jump gates is somehow better than pvp in other places.

The point is that having a number of relatively clearly defined and somewhat restricted points where players can interfere with the economy/game world (whether that be by legal or illegal methods), is more conducive to emergent gameplay, versus having absolute freedom in how you interact with the economy/game world.

 

[Viking]

Gatecamping, as you call it, probably isn't 100% possible in SC due to instancing.

Yes, and also because the jump gates will randomly wobble at the exit point. Maybe even intentionally to avoid gankers. The wobble thing has been mentioned by CIG several times. The second is my guess, because since the game will see every player in an instance it can avoid gankers by ensuring you don't exit where they are camped, and I think this mechanic will be necessary to implement.

But more measures must be taken to avoid/prevent griefers and gankers. It'll not be enough to fine them in the game and vary exit points on jump points. IMO there must be real life consequences, like banned play and real life fines to get into the game again.

 

[Troels]

Yes, and also because the jump gates will randomly wobble at the exit point. Maybe even intentionally to avoid gankers. The wobble thing has been mentioned by CIG several times. The second is my guess, because since the game will see every player in an instance it can avoid gankers by ensuring you don't exit where they are camped, and I think this mechanic will be necessary to implement.

But more measures must be taken to avoid/prevent griefers and gankers. It'll not be enough to fine them in the game and vary exit points on jump points. IMO there must be real life consequences, like banned play and real life fines to get into the game again.

I hope that the fact that, when the ganker inevitably dies they lose their ship (and all equipment), will serve as a big enough deterrent. Insurance only covers the ship to my knowledge.

Most games where I have experienced ganking/griefing, there haven't been any risk in doing so, and as such nothing to really deter people from doing it.

 

[Viking]

I hope that the fact that, when the ganker inevitably dies they lose their ship (and all equipment), will serve as a big enough deterrent.

I fair that won't be enough. Bounties will also not have any big effect on these guys.

Insurance only covers the ship to my knowledge.

Correct. Normal insurance covers only the base hull (or variant), while you must insure any upgrades, equipment and cargo in addition.

Most games where I have experienced ganking/griefing, there haven't been any risk in doing so, and as such nothing to really deter people from doing it.

Exactly. That's why Star Citizen need to be different. Griefers and gankers must not get the chance to ruin the game for other people.

 

[rolling]

Personally, I actually prefer the fact that they are going with fixed jump point, rather than the free-form star system travel we have in ED. Reason being that fixed jump point serves as funnels which creates predictable patterns for both players and NPC, which can then be exploited by other players thereby leading to emergent gameplay.

And as far as the above being gate camping I suppose you might be right, but then again you could also talk about station camping, asteroid field camping, combat zone or really any POI camping. Truth is that players who are interested in pvp, will naturally tend to hang around (camp) spots where other players pass by.

Yes this is indeed a strange thread, especially if you don't actually read what people write.

So you like jump points because it enhance the PVP experience and one post later you argue that all sort of POI are enhancing PVP.
So why creating an additional POI (jump points) if player could simply camp at stations?
And btw suns in ED almost act like your beloved jump points since space ships always land around suns.
I think this is a splitting hair kind of discussion.

 

[MPC]

This November seems to have been SC most profitable month yet. 6.1 million USD according to the stats. November sale last year only got around 4 million I believe?

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2nwhym/6103005_pledged_in_one_montho_o/

 

[Pomerlaw]

Exactly. That's why Star Citizen need to be different. Griefers and gankers must not get the chance to ruin the game for other people.

The guys/clans who buy capital ships for 2500$ will probably expect to have an advantage though... I imagin them parking at gates and waiting for us poor Auroras...

 

[Helfix]

I fair that won't be enough. Bounties will also not have any big effect on these guys.


Correct. Normal insurance covers only the base hull (or variant), while you must insure any upgrades, equipment and cargo in addition.


Exactly. That's why Star Citizen need to be different. Griefers and gankers must not get the chance to ruin the game for other people.

But there will be plenty of ganking and combat going on in low security/no security zones. There is nothing stopping people from occupying certain bottle necks of jump points into systems. Heck, even in high-security space you can PvP, but there you will have consequences because there will actually be police to confront you for attacking other players with no provocation. But when you come to no security/low security, that is another matter.

Also because SC will have a limited number of systems it's going to be much easier to set up choke points and force PvP on people. That is really not a bad thing.

Remains to be seen if CIG/CR goes ahead with the plan where the biggest rewards/most valuable stuff will be in low-security/no security zones. Besides, players will have plenty of things to fight over as well in low-security such as stations/bases/bangle carriers and etc. The very nature of SC being a much smaller universe is a pretty big positive for the game for PvP.

Where as in Elite, its so massive, especially also how jump entrance etc. works that it will be hard to engage in PvP outside say stations/resource zones.

 

[rolling]

Where as in Elite, its so massive, especially also how jump entrance etc. works that it will be hard to engage in PvP outside say stations/resource zones.

Not if system wide scanning, supercruise and interception are well balanced.

Space is massive and what i certainly not want to see in SC/ED is X-series kind of 2d-interlocked-star gates. And the motorways in X:Rebirth is the worth thing i have seen in a space games and completely brakes the immersion of being in space.
I simply prefer the StarWars approach:
- Your ship has a hyperdrive and you can fly where you want
- If you want to fight others you have to track/find them with scanners or a search troop
- You can't simply park at a gate and wait but have to become active

I am really locking forward how SC will implement the PU and travels from star to star, planet to planet, since this is the most interesting and challenging part (for the developlers) of a space game.

 

[Troels]

I fair that won't be enough. Bounties will also not have any big effect on these guys.


Correct. Normal insurance covers only the base hull (or variant), while you must insure any upgrades, equipment and cargo in addition.


Exactly. That's why Star Citizen need to be different. Griefers and gankers must not get the chance to ruin the game for other people.

It's basically a question of balance, on one hand you want to give the players the tools (which include pvp) to actually affect the world around them, but at the same time you want there to be consequences to using said tools, so that players don't abuse them. Hopefully CIG will manage to get that balance right.

So you like jump points because it enhance the PVP experience and one post later you argue that all sort of POI are enhancing PVP.

No, I don't like jump points because they enhance the pvp experience, no idea where you got that from since I never said anything about enhancing the pvp experience itself. I like jump points since they provide a focal point through which players can affect the economy/game world (in ways that are not just limited to pvp). Freeform star travel doesn't allow for this (the part that you, oh so conveniently forgot to highlight)

Secondly I never said that all sorts of POI are enhancing pvp (you really have a gift for seeing things that aren't there). The reason I mentioned pvp at other spots, was because Voivod called pvp at jump gates, gate camping (camping being a fairly derogatory term), I basically agreed with this, but pointed out that the same could largely be said for pvp at other fixed locations (POIs), and thus pvp at jump gates (gate camping) is not inherently worse than pvp at other places.

So why creating an additional POI (jump points) if player could simply camp at stations?

Because pvp at jump gates have the potential to affect the economy differently from pvp at other spots and thus allowing for a more dynamic game in general. And even if this wasn't the case, what does it hurt to have more diverse spots to engage in pvp in, variety is the spice of life after all.

And btw suns in ED almost act like your beloved jump points since space ships always land around suns.

They act nothing like "my beloved" jump points, since it's essentially impossible for players to predict where other players will arrive (or leave)

I think this is a splitting hair kind of discussion.

Or a "Rolling willfully misinterpreting things and taking things out of context" discussion.