The Star Citizen Thread

[PacalB]

I see where you are coming from and I was more impressed by some of the visuals. The planet from space in that vid looked fantastic.

As for not playing it safe. What other types of combat can you imagine in space without missiles, projectiles and lazers?

I would say, a large part that is missing is the EWAR, why does it all have to be fast paced? Why is there no option for the stealthier approach, similar to submarine warfare? Look at what we have netwise these days hacking, I can see pilots sneaking up on eachother staying stealthy engaging a ship via ewar defeating its security systems and say causing it to jettison its cargo.

Imagine you are skimming an atmosphere refueling only to have your computer system warn you your ships systems are being compromised by an intruder with defensive flushing systems in process. You of course, can aid to the defense for your ships systems.

Imagine being able to electronically defeat an incoming torp or missile by EWAR instead of just hitting the chaff. flare or ECM button. Make it a palm sweating part of the game itself.

The history of Elite has always been about pushing boundaries, I just get the feeling when it comes to weapons play that boundary hasn't been pushed. I am not saying the ED should be without projectiles, lasers and missiles, I am saying it's been done to death in this boring "same old fashion" it needs to be taken to another level.

And yes, this goes for SC as well as ED, sometimes the "safe option" kills growth and advancement. :smilie:

 

[ianw]

Ok, I can buy the distracting argument as it is probably how it would work. And, yes, if you come across it again, I'd be interested in visiting the thread!

Thinking about it - it might be buried in the live videos of the last 24 livestream rather than a post - however a Wingman's Hangar episode thread produced a comment from Chris.

It came down to a quickly mumbled phrase by Chris that was absolutely key to the meaning of a crucial point and caused a huge furore and sparked the threadnought..

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...wer-from-today-s-wmh-re-newtonian-physics/p10

The thread is very long and hugely combatative - but Chris Roberts' comment - copied verbatim below - might be interesting even though it doesn't specifically cover the point I was refering to..

"Nothing short of PvE vs PvP gets everyone riled up like the flight model!

Here's some succinct answers to help put / remove my many ""umms"" and ""ahhs"" from the Forum Feedback section of Wing Man's Hangar.

1) The physics simulation is Newtonian

2) There is no drag.

3) The IFCS (Intelligent Flight Control system) generally handles taking the pilot's inputs (desired pitch, yaw, roll and speed) and translates them into actions for the thrusters and ship to take to adjust the ship's velocity vector in the direction the pilot wishes to go. This system will do it within human acceptable tolerances (it will not change your velocity vector in such a way as it could cause harm to the pilot)

4) Slowing down is caused by the pilot telling his IFCS that he wants to be traveling at a lower speed. The IFCS then communicates with the ships thrusters to adjust the ship's velocity accordingly.

5) If you turn you engines and IFCS off you will continue to coast at the same velocity.

6) Fuel is consumed by using your thrusters or main engines. If you coast you will not be using fuel, but making velocity vector changes will consume fuel.

7) More advanced IFCS systems will allow you to turn of parts of its overrides or allow it to interpret you inputs differently - for instance you could tell it you want to go into an ""orientation"" not ""vectoring"" mode where it will take your joystick inputs as solely ship orientation inputs and not try to correct your ship's velocity vector to be aligned in the direction your ship is pointing (the famous Battlestar Galactica maneuver).

8) We will limit the top speed of ships you can fly for technical issues (physics engines have problems when the numbers get too big) and fun - figuring out an intercept course for an opponent traveling at 0.2 speed of light (which is our fictional max for practical spaceflight in 2943) maybe be challenging if you're a mathematician or physicist but not what I call fun gameplay.

9) This top speed will be less than the top speed of weapons.

10) Top speed will probably be dependent on ship class but we haven't balanced this so it may be a matter of all ships having the same cap but the smaller faster ones can reach that limit much quicker (and therefore put some distance between them and their pursuers even if they go to max). This needs to be tuned so that people with the right kind of ships can run from a fight. The idea is that once you get enough separation between you and a hostile you can make the jump to autopilot / warp speed (using the Star Trek term), which is how you cover big distances in-system (essentially at that 0.2 lightspeed (c) number I mentioned). Just at these speeds you're not maneuvering - you're just accelerating and decelerating in a straight line. Think of it as human (player) controlled flight for the lower combat / docking speeds and then when wanting to warp to a destination (say a planet or a jump point) you hand control over to your ship's flight computer which handles plotting the trajectory and accelerating you to the 0.2 c speed that a RSI quantum drive can achieve.

11) I do know what G-Force is I use the term as a measure of acceleration on the human body as its good short hand for people to grasp the concept of forces acting on a body when accelerating and decelerating. You may be interested to know that ""..The accelerations that are not produced by gravity are termed proper accelerations, and it is only these that are measured in g-force units. They cause stresses and strains on objects. Because of these strains, large g-forces may be destructive..."" Occasionally people think it is only to do with gravity and earth bound flight but that's actually incorrect - its just that's the case we're most familiar with. And yes these forces come into play when accelerating and decelerating in space and until we develop some system to increase our tolerances to the effects of this acceleration they will be the limiting factor on how aggressively we could change the velocity vector of a ship, irregardless of whether we are in the atmosphere or not. Its also interesting to note that we're built to withstand much greater accelerations in certain directions - modern day pilots can withstand 9 G but much less negative Gs. Its why you see pilots rolling and pulling back on the stick when attempting aggressive maneuvers rather than pushing forward or yawing with a rudder. The same will be true in space. We're going to factor in G-Force in the simulation, and allow pilots to push the boundaries (or switch the IFCS safety off) in search for a little advantage, but beware if you back (or red) out in a dogfight you may come to floating in space next to the smoking wreck of your ship!

-Chris"

 

[Susimetsa]

Interesting posts, indeed, and I see surprising similarities with the approach that Frontier is taking with Elite4...

 

[twincast]

But I agree starting with other than sidewinder and 100 credits is like cheating

Yep. And that's the very reason I also stayed with my basic Aurora pledge for the longest time, but I'm a completist at heart, and since there are so many ships, I don't see me or my online character collecting more than a single manufacturer. I am really glad that all those ship types are in it, but some just aren't for me.

MISC: Freelancer & Starfarer (a.k.a. the freighter and the tanker) - Some trading on the side is fine, but the idea of doing nothing but bores the hell out of me.

Anvil: Hornet & Gladiator (a.k.a. the modern fighter and the modern bomber) - Looking forward immensely to flying those two beauties extensively in Squadron 42, but in an open world? Nah.

Drake: Cutlass & Caterpillar (a.k.a. the pirate gunboat and the pirate transport) - I'm simply too goody two-shoes for piracy outside pirate games.

Also, the three above are simply too expensive to begin with (and they each have such perfect pairs that I'd want to have LTI either for both or for neither).

RSI: Aurora & Constellation (a.k.a. the small cargo plane and the large cargo plane) plus the Bengal carrier - Well, excluding the capital ship I'd never get outside mods anyway, they may be the most versatile of the bunch, but they are still primarily cargo ships. They may encompass everything Star Citizen sets out to be the best, but that just isn't quite me. Also, the Aurora is a bit too small to stay with while the Constellation is too large for me as a standard choice.

Aegis: Avenger & Retaliator (a.k.a. the classic fighter and the classic bomber) plus the Idris corvette - TBH, the Idris looks like an RSI ship, the Avenger has a unique look of smooth curves and hard edges, and the Retaliator looks like an RSI ship with an Avenger cockpit, so not really the signature look they are aiming for with their ship manufacturers. Anyway, again, capital ship gameplay is great but not for me, and while I'm looking forward to giving the other two a spin in the military campaign, what could one ever need a sluggish bomber for in an open world game outside dedicated group play? Other than turning it into a makeshift transport, I guess; neither of which is me.

Origin: 300 series & M50 (a.k.a. the sports car and the racing car) plus the 890 JUMP (generally assumed to be a.k.a. the luxury yacht or the private jet) - Like several other ships mentioned in-fiction, so far we haven't seen even a glimpse of the 890 JUMP yet and know next to nothing about it, but I consider it the most likely of those to get modelled for the game soon and I can see myself occasionally going on a pleasure trip with it if it is what I expect it to be. Likewise, I may very well try ship racing with an M50 (and maybe a 350r) from time to time. And the 300i is pretty much perfect for me, explorer and bounty hunter that I like to be in such games, plus lots of options to upgrade.

As for ED, I can't wait to work my way up to a Viper Mk. II and lovingly stick and tinker with it.

Can't link to them but I'm pretty sure I've seen comments over there from Chris about how all the thrusters in engine work according to newtonian spaceflight/physics but - they didn't model them working accurately in engine because when they did they thought it looked silly - although they work correctly underneath in the calculation if that makes sense?

Yeah, they go for unscientific established expectations too much too often for my liking even when it wouldn't affect actual gameplay. :/ Oh well, placating people who don't just want to shut off their brain while having fun by offering a different visual representation should be easy enough for them to do. And if they aren't willing/considerate enough to do so, a respective mod will surely arise very quickly.

And regarding the 4k video/Hornet ad: Looks pretty, of course, but it honestly boggles my mind how in-universe Anvil Aerospace would consider it a good idea to show off their product by it getting nothing but chased and how Roberts Space Industries would allow their ship to be used in a rival's advertisement. Immersion: fail.

Oh, and if I had the money, I'd throw thousands of dollars at most games I backed - in a few special cases even hundreds of thousands, but alas, I do not.

Edit: Did it really take me two hours to write this? I guess so.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

8) We will limit the top speed of ships you can fly for technical issues (physics engines have problems when the numbers get too big) and fun - figuring out an intercept course for an opponent traveling at 0.2 speed of light (which is our fictional max for practical spaceflight in 2943) maybe be challenging if you're a mathematician or physicist but not what I call fun gameplay.

I remember this 0.2c figure, and also that Chris Roberts gave a ~30min figure for traversing a system. That surely means that they've compressed the size of systems quite substantially?

 

[Styggron]

I have the basic Aurora. I have no idea what it looks like, however...

ROFL......... not looked at the hangar module yet eh ?

First I would like to thank you for your courteous replies to my post in this thread. I can't say I have always found this level of civility on the SC forums.

We're a great community here Verne. I do understand your comment re people's civility on the SC threads, there are some......shall we say "people with under developed ideas and a rather abrupt way of expressing themselves"

Oh and I really like your definition of "sniping". Makes perfect sense.

 

[Styggron]

I remember this 0.2c figure, and also that Chris Roberts gave a ~30min figure for traversing a system. That surely means that they've compressed the size of systems quite substantially?

There was a post I saw somewhere on the SC threads where a fan took all the info they knew and made a starmap that was apparently pretty close according also to a video episode of Wingman's Hangar.


Also is anyone here a subscriber ? ie the $10 or $20 a month to get the development magazine etc ? Jump Point I think it is called. You are able to just get one month worth and download all previous, then do it again later.....they are open that way..........it is more "if you want to support the project more you can do this" which is exactly the attitude Chris has when there are special ships on offer he always says they are all avail in game with ingame credits but if you want them now you can buy them but don't have to.

People are still going crazy there........it is VERY interesting to watch.......

I wonder what they will reach ? Over 30m I'd say. Will they run out of stretch goals ? You can't keep "adding" MORE and more and keep the release dates, sure you can add more people but logistics are trickier and trickier.

I have to say I loved the Chris Roberts and David Braben interviews. Love both those guys !

 

[izzy]

I think SC can hit 30M ... nice number for a game
I agree Braben and Roberts are great

 

[Kleinholz]

I wonder what they will reach ? Over 30m I'd say. Will they run out of stretch goals ? You can't keep "adding" MORE and more and keep the release dates, sure you can add more people but logistics are trickier and trickier.

Yeah i wonder about that too. Also, having to promise more and more and more might also distract CIG from filling the universe with actual content. Hope they don't "overpledge"...

 

[Styggron]

Yeah i wonder about that too. Also, having to promise more and more and more might also distract CIG from filling the universe with actual content. Hope they don't "overpledge"...

Exactly. There must be a point there they will go "ok we can't add more" so maybe they will give pledgers more in game credits ? Ships ? I don't know..........might off balance things............

I tried putting myself in their shoes..........my answer is that I have no answer. :smilie: What do we do if too much money comes in ? :smilie::smilie:

 

[ianw]

Well one thing they aren't getting which we apparently are is beam weapons.

I remember Rob saying in a Wingman's Hangar that they were problematical so they wouldn't be in at first.

Someone has started a thread over there - and linked to the Damocles vid over here.

I asked the question here in one of the threads here as to whether beam weapons were definitely in here and I don't think it was answered.

So potentially another USP for ED..

 

[HaiderGill]

Just got my backer refund as I got banned for talking about wanting it on the PS4.
Those PC extremists are vicious.

PS3/Xbox1 are PCs. When Apple moved to Intel CPUs there was a hacked version of MacOS for IBM compatible PCs. I'm sure somebody will get them to boot Windows and Linux. Just a matter of time...

Star Citizen is Chris Robert's vision and Elite is David Braben's vision. They may be similar but they won't be the same. I'm no Champagne Charlie but each has it's own house style - Krug, Louis Roderer, Vueve Clicquot, Moet Chandon et. all. Le Grande Dame At the end of the day you pick the house style you prefer. I am not ruling out playing SC. but I'm investing in David and his vision. Initially a very modest investment but which will grow as the game moves through Alpha, Beta etc...

 

[Styggron]

Just got my backer refund as I got banned for talking about wanting it on the PS4.
Those PC extremists are vicious.

Whoah I can't believe I missed this post.
You got BANNED because you were talking about wanting it on the PS4 ? So StarCitizen kicked you off and refunded your money ????? There must be more to it than that.....

 

[Styggron]

Well one thing they aren't getting which we apparently are is beam weapons.

I remember Rob saying in a Wingman's Hangar that they were problematical so they wouldn't be in at first.

Someone has started a thread over there - and linked to the Damocles vid over here.

I asked the question here in one of the threads here as to whether beam weapons were definitely in here and I don't think it was answered.

So potentially another USP for ED..

Yes a lot of the SC fans love the Damocles video. I've been in the chatroom when they were talking about it so I was in a position to evangelise it.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

Whoah I can't believe I missed this post.
You got BANNED because you were talking about wanting it on the PS4 ? So StarCitizen kicked you off and refunded your money ????? There must be more to it than that.....

I got attacked for making a thread asking if it would be possible to avoid the walking aspects of the game (this is before I lost interest after learning that I, in fact, could not). Granted, I got the same kind of treatment here for the same reason, but the SC community made that look like undying love.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took even THAT much (wanting SC for ps4) to get him banned and ostracized.

I know that there are decent people in the SC community, but they're the minority and the community as a whole is the epitome of fan-dumb.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Granted, I got the same kind of treatment here for the same reason, but the SC community made that look like undying love.

Hmm... I read through that thread and most of the responses are actually very positive. You totally overreacted to the small number that weren't... It's a bit disrespectful to the people on these forums making out that you've been treated badly in some way.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

Hmm... I read through that thread and most of the responses are actually very positive. You totally overreacted to the small number that weren't... It's a bit disrespectful to the people on these forums making out that you've been treated badly in some way.

Did I really overreact? I mean it, serious question. If I did, and I apologize, it's likely because I was still sensitive from the lashing I got from the SC community over that very issue. Not an excuse, just a possible explanation.

And I'd like to apologize if I made it seem like I thought I had gotten treated badly, that wasn't my intention, nor what I was saying. What I was saying was that the negative responses on that thread were not nearly the kind of vitriol that I experienced, universally, from the SC community for exactly the same kind of thread on THEIR forums.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Did I really over-react? (serious question. I mean it.)

Well, a little bit. By normal internet standards there's nothing to talk about really. I was just surprised that you came away from that thread with so much negativity, when most of the posts were positive or neutral to what you'd suggested.

Edit: Oops. Missed your edit. All good then...

I don't spend much time on the Star Citizen forums. Makes me wonder what these forums will be like once the game is released...

 

[PacalB]

I don't spend much time on the Star Citizen forums. Makes me wonder what these forums will be like once the game is released...

ABSOLUTE HELL!

Take the MWO (Mechwarrior Online) forums as an example, a place where hardened mech fans gathered, to a place where little nubs whine constantly about absolutely everything! :S

 

[Slawkenbergius]

ABSOLUTE HELL!

Take the MWO (Mechwarrior Online) forums as an example, a place where hardened mech fans gathered, to a place where little nubs whine constantly about absolutely everything! :S

Hopefully they'll close admission to the Private Backer's Forum in time, and can then rename it Sanctuary.