The State of Piracy

Honest piracy is against the will of the victim ...not something they agree to do because they want to role play.

Amen, as controversial as it sounds.

I hope wholeheartedly that crime and punishment catch up, but this will always be the case for me.

Genuine piracy is against the will of the victim (save selecting an environment with the possibility of player piracy occurring beforehand). If piracy only occurs due to explicit consent of both parties at the explicit moment of piracy, then it's begging, not piracy.
 

Goose4291

Banned
It was good times indeed. I remember pirating in a Cobra, and stupidly try to take on an Asp that boiled me up.

But hey, it did inspire me to join The Code.

Wish players can find this kind of authentic experience even now, but I have my doubts.

First pirate who tried to stop me interdicted me when I had just got my eagle. Managed to blag my way out of giving any cargo by stating to them "Im in an Eagle, do you really think Im carrying cargo?"
 
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I didn't say it negated anything, but that two different people at the same time both on open see different situations.

So you've seen there are no pirates attacking you.

Works for you, then.

Others have seen several. So it's a problem for them.

How much simpler do you need this?

And he's upset nobody wants to be on the thin end of a pirate stick. Talk about missing the point...

There are pirates, i never said there weren't. But there isn't piracy. There's players who attack other players saying piratey stuff but that's not piracy. Piracy requires time. It requires that the victim contemplate giving up goods in exchange for their life. It requires a pirate to communicate demands and retrieve those goods. And the threat has to be communicated. All of this requires things that dont really exist in the game.

Time during a hostile confrontation.
Threat to the pirate's well being for making good on the threat.
Higher threat on the victim if they choose not to meet the demands of the pirate.
Chance for the victim to seriously damage or even kill the pirate in defense
Perpetual illegal status of pirates
Ability to do the activity often enough to be viable as an income - and even though most pirates are poor in history ..it seems unlikely Elite players will be ok with being poor.

All of that (and other things not mentioned) is why piracy doesn't exist. Regardless of how much people want to play them. A lot of players want to portray themselves as pirates but just end up killing players and it's half the fault of the above and half because they aren't really trying to be pirates. So while he may be saying he's a pirate ...he's either only preyed on noobs or role players. The game just doesn't have the structure for pirates to be pirates.

edit: This is the current game if someone wanted to be a legit pirate, with crime and punishment boosts implemented.

Pirate: "Hey, give me your gold or i'll shoot you up."
Victim: "Go ahead and shoot me up. The cops will come get you and i'll just respawn because money means nothing"
Pirate: sulks away sad.

Even without crime and punishment ... it's pretty much the same. There's no infrastructure for piracy to work. It makes zero sense to be a piracy victim. Just run or kill them. You'll either get away or die but it's a far better option than complying.
 
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There are pirates, i never said there weren't. But there isn't piracy.

OK, no idea what the heck you mean here.

No pirates, but there's piracy....

Sofware pirates? None where you are?

And if you weren't saying there's no piracy, what was your point in your opener?

Are you just making me runaround to find where you're putting the goalposts now?
 

Minonian

Banned
Im suspecting a language barrier issue here.

When I refer to someone as a decent sort, I mean theyre using the menu to exit (not combat logging).
What I was saying is that even then, youve got 15 seconds to try to make your demands known and get them acknowlwdged, and seen as you can log out mid interdiction now, Julios idea wouldnt work in the current framework necause by the time youve dragged the trader into normal space, theyve disconnected.

15 Sec can be enough to bring down the shields and hacthbreak the ship.

About griefers? Some people just want to see the world burn... But with their silly little heads did not recognise the most important fact. :D
They are living in this world too. So if it's burn? They are burning with it too. And this stupid bunch want to rule the game, rule the net, rule the world?
Don't make me laugh!
Why they are doing it, not understanding it? Because they are too selfish and short sighted for everything else.
 
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15 Sec can be enough to bring down the shields and hacthbreak the ship.

Hatch breaker goes through shields now, fyi, can be countered by PD and ECM.

Partially why I stopped pinning FD hard on the menu log issue. I feel bad for player bounty hunters though.
 
I am genuinely interested: what's your technique for PvE piracy? While I have made decent profits from PvE piracy, most other professions can make at least as much with less effort.


It seems to me that if more people participated in piracy in some way, it would greatly expand the PvP scene as it integrates the two most common trades: the traders that the Pirates attack and the bounty hunters that chase the pirates. It seems like a win-win-win situation.

Except for the trader!
 
OK, no idea what the heck you mean here.

No pirates, but there's piracy....

Sofware pirates? None where you are?

And if you weren't saying there's no piracy, what was your point in your opener?

Are you just making me runaround to find where you're putting the goalposts now?

dude, you have the quote right in your post and you reversed what i said was and wasn't there. You have people wanting to play the part. Trying to in some cases. But the act of piracy is not there. Piracy is an activity. Pirates are people. That's the difference between the two. You can certainly have one without the other. Obviously not a viable situation but then, that's the situation we have in elite. A non-viable one.
 
It was good times indeed. I remember pirating in a Cobra, and stupidly try to take on an Asp that boiled me up.

But hey, it did inspire me to join The Code.

Wish players can find this kind of authentic experience even now, but I have my doubts.

Depends, some of us still act true to the pirate role,
but we are few in number and the bubble is big.
Maybe over the next months, we will see more active piracy;)
 
The current state of piracy is almost nonexistant due to various things, such as the mission payouts removing proper trading for the most part, mode system, poor pve piracy payouts and a community that until recently was pro combat logging. Cant see how theyre two seperate issues when one has caused the decline of piracy.
I made some suggestions how to improve piracy above. The community was never pro combat logging, most people just don't care about it. Combat logging didn't cause the decline of piracy, because clogging is caused by piracy (or better griefing, I know there is a difference ;)). It's a reaction to unconsensual PvP, asymetric warfare and the lack of a working C&P system. The modes aren't related to the decline of piracy either, those who play in solo have never been interested in getting pirated, they were never part of your gameplay. You can only pirate those that are willing to be pirated, you can't force someone to be your content - therefore clogging and solo are no issues for piracy.



I think you're being idealistic there. Back when people were engaging in proper piracy, on this forum as well as most of the faceache communities treated like real life pedophiles, rapists and murderers. No matter how nice and openly 'fun' you are about it, this will be the case.
As said above, this will happen if you interact with people who don't want to interact with them. Telling them to go into solo, and then complaining about solo killing piracy doesn't make any sense.


Woah now old chap. I've dabbled in piracy (I mostly trade in open) and never got on the "you're my content" train. The most I've said is that if you fly in open you've got to expect player interaction, and it might not be good.
Good point, sorry for the generalisation. The thing is, that's how lots of players see pirates. If you want a better expierence in open I suggest you work activly against it ;)



I'm not whining about combat logging. Im pointing out one of the underpinning issues that caused the death of piracy, in a thread about the current state of piracy.
As said above, clogging is not related to the death of piracy, which is why I suggest people stop talking about it in a way that isn't productive.
"Stopping combat logging will fix piracy"
No. It will not.
If FDEV would find a way to gurantee that nobody can clog, the only thing that will happen is that less players are in open. Currently you have at least the chance that someone will play along. You can't pirate players who don't want to get pirated. It's essential to understand that. You can just give incentives for player to play along, for example by introducing the suggestions I made above (I'll put them at the end of this comment so you know what I am talking about), I think cargo insurance could help in addition.


Most players who come here that play dodgier professions are amongst the ones clamouring for this. Myself included.
And yet we always spend more time arguing about clogging rather than how to improve C&P and piracy, in every damn thread. This needs to stop.


I very sincerly doubt it.
It's your only chance though ;)

Suggestion:
I'd like to see a communication system that allows you to demand / accept cargo, it should work for both, PvE and PvP piracy.

- needs cargo scans to initiate
- you can only demand as much cargo as you can take (including wing members)
- allows better PvE piracy AND allows a better experience for the guy being pirated
- for PvP it would be tied to the karma system, if you demand cargo before destroying a rejecting CMDR you'd get a different effect
- Killing a ship that has actually given you cargo should seriously lower a pirate's reputation / karma

Repeated mindless killing without demanding cargo: Everyone hates you.
Repeated killing after demanding cargo: Only the faction in the jurisdiction you are pirating in hates you.

PS
Succesful piracy attempts would count to your (new) pirate rank, other new ranks are smuggler and assassin.
The new mechanic would also allow to keep better track of piracy actions to count towards the BGS.

PPS
To clarify the BGS part: The current mechanic can't differntiate between piracy and exchanging cargo. The game doesn't know if I gave you the cargo deliberately. A demand cargo mechanic would change this.

While talking about CL probably doesn't contribute anything productive to piracy in general, I would say the two issues are tightly connected. To pretend otherwise (for PvP piracy) is inviting laughter.

See above.
 
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It was good times indeed. I remember pirating in a Cobra, and stupidly try to take on an Asp that boiled me up.

But hey, it did inspire me to join The Code.

Wish players can find this kind of authentic experience even now, but I have my doubts.

Your Code buddies got me often enough :) I think I successfully boiled ONE of them, ONCE.The rest of the time I either paid the tax and accepted the protection or got my head handed to me. Good times indeed. :)
 

Minonian

Banned
It was good times indeed. I remember pirating in a Cobra, and stupidly try to take on an Asp that boiled me up.

But hey, it did inspire me to join The Code.

Wish players can find this kind of authentic experience even now, but I have my doubts.

And i still remember my first griefer it was in the first day... on ross 3447... he was in a FDL and i was in my sidewindy. he got a nasty surprise. :D
 
there is not much to say, Pve piracy is dead because npc's now instantly reboot their disabled modules, and the hatch breaker fix that FD implemented is not working well as its not feasible to scoop up a 15km trail of cargo before it all expires.
and pvp piracy i don't want to address as i got cyberbullied for over a year whit threats to my life for just talking about it.

It's not an instantaneous reboot though, it takes as long as a players ship does. As I stated in my OP on page one, this can be compensated for with proper positioning of your ship in comparison to the targets ship as well as paying attention to the situation. Sure, it's not like shooting fish in a barrel like it was before, but it's entirely manageable. Keep the power plant targeted and as soon as you see it go from 0% to 1%, pull the trigger. If you've positioned yourself properly, it only takes one shot to bring it back to 0%; after which, you can carry on with emptying their cargo hold.

If you're relying on your hatch breakers draining the hold while the target is still mobile with its shields up, of course you aren't going to be very successful unless your idea of success is only 2-4 tons of stolen loot. It might work in a pinch in a high sec system where police response times are measured in seconds (15s average for high sec, 1-2 minutes for medium sec, 5+ minutes for low sec). Mainly,I imagine the hatch breaker fix is aimed at pirating players in the situation I mentioned above. It's not the best way to steal cargo, but it works in a bind.

That being said, pve piracy is far from "dead", so long as you do it properly.
 
Ah Piracy..

We can split this into a couple groups (I know how much folks love to be grouped, but work with me here).

1. Corporate Raiders - these are "officially sanctioned" pirates, in the employ of a given faction or corporate interest, who specialize in raiding their competition. They're getting paid to rob, plus bonuses for anything else they might happen to come across. We already have "Liberate" missions that turn up on the mission boards to feed this particular form of Piracy, but this can be vastly refined.

2. Freelance Pirates - Thugs, thieves, and even your "gentleman pirate", working for no one but themselves. Once the scourge of the high seas, now the bane of the black. Like the Corporate Raider above, this too is in need of some major refinement.

So, how to begin to refine this? It ultimately comes down to the mission system, and to the ranking system. It also comes down to systems in general.

As it stands right now, there are no particular havens for pirates of any kind - no den of thieves for them to gather, and little in the realms of information for them to gleam.

--and here's the edit--

To make Piracy actually viable, Pirates are going to need stations in Anarchy space. I would expect to see these take the form of Asteroid bases (something we've been told is in the works), or planetary installations, as these would be a bit easier to keep the whereabouts of obscured from Johnny Law and more importantly, from Bounty Hunters. These may not be as feature-rich as more "legitimate" stations. I wouldn't expect much in the lines of commodities at these kinds of places, nor Contacts for claiming bounties or combat bonds. But a vibrant Black Market, paying more than the standard rates - more along the lines of the more legitimate Commodity Markets.
I also wouldn't expect much to be offered in Shipyards, but Outfitting I would expect to be well supplied. Clearly a lot of effort will be involved to make these wretched hives of scum and villainy both viable and useful.

Mission boards here would be dominated by missions suited to pirates for those Corporate Raiders looking to ply their particular trade for shady corporate officers looking to put the hurt on their competition though such means.

Another unique feature of these sorts of stations would the Rumor board. Much like Tip Off missions, the Rumor board would provide locations of valuable shipments, lost ships full of precious cargo, and the like - suitable for the freelance pirates to sate themselves on ill-gotten gains. These missions would require a bit different handling - no cash payouts, but certainly rich with Reputation.

And for the Pirate, Reputation is what the "game" is all about. Whereas the working stiff builds reputation and influence with various factions, the Pirate's Reputation is all their own - reknown (or infamy) for their exploits. This serves the same role as Pilot's Federation ranking, indicating the overall skill of the pirate. Similar to a Trader's rank, it is based largely on the value of goods stolen and successful sold. Factors that affect the value of a sale, such as being scanned with a hold full of stolen goods would reduce the amount of Reputation gained.

Destroying other ships will also not aid one's rise through the ranks, as this does not produce cargo to resell.

Of course, this is only the PvE side of the coin. PvP Piracy will also benefit from these dens, as places to pawn their goods in relative peace, and to supplement their incomes, but they will also gain the benefits of Rank as well. I've not yet fully thought through what those benefits are, and am open to suggestions, though I think these should be on par with current benefits - access to otherwise locked system, the opportunity to obtain certain rank-locked ships, and perhaps some influence when it comes to dealing with PvE pirates - making lower ranked NPC's more apt to submit, to eject cargo, and to eject cargo of higher values, rather than facing the wrath of a greatly feared pirate.
 
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It's not an instantaneous reboot though, it takes as long as a players ship does. As I stated in my OP on page one, this can be compensated for with proper positioning of your ship in comparison to the targets ship as well as paying attention to the situation. Sure, it's not like shooting fish in a barrel like it was before, but it's entirely manageable. Keep the power plant targeted and as soon as you see it go from 0% to 1%, pull the trigger. If you've positioned yourself properly, it only takes one shot to bring it back to 0%; after which, you can carry on with emptying their cargo hold.

If you're relying on your hatch breakers draining the hold while the target is still mobile with its shields up, of course you aren't going to be very successful unless your idea of success is only 2-4 tons of stolen loot. It might work in a pinch in a high sec system where police response times are measured in seconds (15s average for high sec, 1-2 minutes for medium sec, 5+ minutes for low sec). Mainly,I imagine the hatch breaker fix is aimed at pirating players in the situation I mentioned above. It's not the best way to steal cargo, but it works in a bind.

That being said, pve piracy is far from "dead", so long as you do it properly.

No, it doesn't. It SHOULD, but it often takes 2-3 seconds.
 
Ah Piracy..

We can split this into a couple groups (I know how much folks love to be grouped, but work with me here).

1. Corporate Raiders - these are "officially sanctioned" pirates, in the employ of a given faction or corporate interest, who specialize in raiding their competition. They're getting paid to rob, plus bonuses for anything else they might happen to come across. We already have "Liberate" missions that turn up on the mission boards to feed this particular form of Piracy, but this can be vastly refined.

2. Freelance Pirates - Thugs, thieves, and even your "gentleman pirate", working for no one but themselves. Once the scourge of the high seas, now the bane of the black. Like the Corporate Raider above, this too is in need of some major refinement.

So, how to begin to refine this? It ultimately comes down to the mission system, and to the ranking system. It also comes down to systems in general.

As it stands right now, there are no particular havens for pirates of any kind - no den of thieves for them to gather, and little in the realms of information for them to gleam.

--- and I am about to leave the office for the day, so stay tuned for my edit when I get home ---

Freelance are not merely targets of corporate pirates, they're not even just enemies, they're poachers who obviously don't fear the corporate pirate. Extermination should be the only option when they meet.

Since this cannot be enforced, it shouldn't happen to have this split.

Sign up for "Criminal" or "Lawman", and missions and options open up, depending on where you are. And as a pirate you pick a corporation that accepts pirate, you obey their laws or THEY will put a bounty on you. Filch on their turf without signing on, and they'll stick a bounty on your head merely for picking stuff up or shooting someone. You want to work their patch, you gotta wet their beak (sign up). Resigning just removes the privileges you gained.

On the sanctioned use of force, if signed up or working a "pirate mission" from the anarchy boards, PKing doesn't count for mission targets or oppos of the faction you signed for. Pirating your own side is dealt with even more harshly than normal high sec space.

So signing up gives you perks, but limitations and a safer world. Not signing makes everyone see you as a valid target, but doesn't restrict you or face consequences worse than a pirate elsewhere would.

Make it hard or impossible to change from lawman to pirate. If it can change over, you have to run missions keeping your nose clean at a negative rep with the side you just left, until you wore enough rep up with your new faction to clear that past, resetting the negative rep with your new home-boys.
 
No, it doesn't. It SHOULD, but it often takes 2-3 seconds.

Not from what I've ever experienced since this behavior was added to NPC's. Once I disable their powerplant, I've got enough time for at least 2 or 3 hatch breakers to do their work, leaving around 15-25 tons of cargo ready to be picked up. I only have to knock out their power plant 2 or 3 times to fill the hold on my asp X. Keep in mind that unless the targets hull is around 10%, hatch breakers take a considerable amount of time. 10% and below, and they work instantly, but your risk of killing the target is much higher as well.

Mind you, NPC's also set power priorities now. Given that a disabled powerplant has 50% output, it's entirely possible for them to have some modules set to priority 1 giving the impression that they're powerplant is still online. I've even seen them juggle priorities mid fight, resulting in their drives being switched to p1 so they can still stay mobile. Nothing wrong with that though, as it's the same thing I do when setting power priorities. It does suck when they have their PDT's set to 1 though. Takes the wind right out o' my sails (and limpets) so to speak.

I guess this basically comes down to the anecdote argument that's been going on above us though. My experience vs yours. This is just what I've observed as a player who almost exclusively makes money by pirating low temp diamonds from NPCs.
 
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