The Thargoid Disaster and what we learn for the future, a speculation

[iFred]

After reading all of this thread until page 22 up to now and all the other current threads it is all clear to me: the development team has been shrunk to a minimum, maybe because of "Jurassic World Evolution".

To tell the story FDev is wanting to tell, it would have been necessary to have the story (e.g. the adaption of the Thargoids) encoded or parameterized with the main 2.4 update. Now it looks like if the story is told with a series of minor 2.4.X updates, where the hardcoded parameters are changed to fit to some story.

This can never work even if they hide the changes from the patch log. This community has some decent intelligent people arround, if FDev had hidden the AX Missile 0.05 to 0.001 change, they would have found out by testing. A 50 times nerf they would have guessed quite accurate I am sure.

So we have to face minor updates in series and each one will give us something and the next one removes it. A carrot-and-stick policy but we are not horses and this is not a good approach for a game. It removes incentives to do the parts which are given to us, because we normally don't know when they are removed again so it is likely that all effort will be nullified.

So why is this happening like this? Because the team has to find a way to "tell the story" with very small manpower and thats what we get now: the minimal possible result which still can be seen as complete or mission accomplished. My conclusion from the current desaster (Thargoids) is, that the main changes in 2.4 are not in the part of the coding which would be the most time consuming. Instead it is mainly art work, some sound and music and text (GalNet). This would be an approach where nearly no code needs to be tested and a minimum of new bugs are created.

This is the way to go if there is only a minimum number of people left to do it.

And this destroys my hopes I had in the future of the game. The next major update (fleshing out what we have) will make the decision for me.

I had the same thoughts. Hardcoded parameter-changing means that the players can do whatever they want, it has absolutely no influence on the progress of the story. It´s a god-mode-approach from Frontier and its showing us that nothing has been implemented except a couple of animations, graphics and sound. I am heavily disappointed with 2.4 and the Expo on Saturday should better bring some really cool stuff, otherwise after my return on Monday the game will be uninstalled.

To be honest, I am really really disappointed. Its a slap in the face for every customer, especially for backers.

 

[kofeyh]

I think they've rolled Thargoids out just fine. In the original games Thargoids were supposed to be very difficult to kill. They are an intelligent species and I imagine that just as we are attempting to defeat them they are attempting to study us and out-technology us as well.

If they were so very difficult to kill, why were people then killing them? Frontier had the choice of waiting for a broader solution (which they could balance as a group of weapons) with a series of encounters and mechanics to escalate, or, simply release weapons early and let commanders have at it. They chose the latter. With the best of intentions. But I don't think too many people couldn't predict the outcome. Guns work. Things die. This is not good. Ergo, Thargoids "adapt". Frontier make one gun un-work, things still potentially die anyway with sufficient numbers.

It's an arms race and it doesn't surprise me one bit that they have started to adapt to us.

Sure. We had bigger arms than we were supposed to. They made our arms smaller, then blamed the thargoids. If they'd blamed AEGIS at least that would make some sense. This allows them to ramp up and keep us guessing as to what Thargoids are doing. Telegraph AEGIS changes (rebalance) and keep thargoids sneaky (shenanigans).

It's the execution, rather than the intent, perhaps. Frontier fell back on "make the gun less good" rather than address why the outcome was so effective; hint, it's not just the gun. It's the numbers of the same gun that can be used. Because what's going to be the result of the next weapon when a bunch of people use it at the same time? Or the next (should it exist) after that?

I'm looking forward to Frontier shaking things up, but just bluntly nerfing weapons, right out of the gate, isn't going to gain a lot of support, versus actually dynamically shifting how the thargoids are actually responding. I don't envy Frontier's position. But they do need to get a solid handle on this.

 

[sollisb]

I had the same thoughts. Hardcoded parameter-changing means that the players can do whatever they want, it has absolutely no influence on the progress of the story. It´s a god-mode-approach from Frontier and its showing us that nothing has been implemented except a couple of animations, graphics and sound. I am heavily disappointed with 2.4 and the Expo on Saturday should better bring some really cool stuff, otherwise after my return on Monday the game will be uninstalled.

To be honest, I am really really disappointed. Its a slap in the face for every customer, especially for backers.

Some of the base game fixes are good. The mission debacle was just indicative of amateur management.

As for the Thargoids, they [fdev] have shown us it's not in any way 'our story', so the way to combat that is to simply stop using the content.

Once you enter the USS, you're playing and progressing their story, for them, not you.

 

[Susanna]

https://i.imgur.com/DREEBmw.jpg

This so summed it up for me! Great picture! Reped!

If only FDev had decided upon a proportionate response instead... Sad.

I will personally be protesting by voting with my feet and not participating in any further AEGIS CGs.

 

[babelfisch]

Which desaster are you talking about (yes, I read the thread you linked), and don't you think there is something wrong with our society when we call this a desaster and you are the one to blame for it?

 

[Kzak]

I predict that when more anti-xeno weapons are developed, the Thargoids might gain resistance against them as well, but they can't be highly resistant to every kind of weapon simultaneously. I think the AX missiles will gradually regain effectiveness. Right now they are the only weapon that can (could) hurt the Thargoids, and they have focused their efforts against this weapon.

Think putting on reflective ship armor and upgrading it at an Engineer to be as highly resistant against thermal damage as possible - lasers won't do much against that armor, but kinetic and explosive will.

 

[lokvette]

I dont think its quite a disaster, well not yet anyway but then I diddnt get sucked in by all the PR regarding the Thargoids thus my expetations were low to start with. I was unhappy that they weren't soloable then happy when they were now there not again my interest in the whole affair is pretty much back to where it was before 2.4.

Its not the nerf but the way the nerf came about with nothing tieing it to the whole story, and the fact its a bit a about face, would rather have seen the Thargoids get a buff than the missiles get a nerf, but its not my game nor my story.

If this is how FD tells a story I dont think many people will be that interrested when it gets to the last chapter. If the story dosnt grab you by the balls in the first one or two then its not a good one, and weve had a year of the hype train telling us all sorts of things only when it pulled into the station it was not the train we were looking for, invasion...what invasion it could have been so much more and maybe it will but thus far its about as interesting as reading one of my posts.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

What did we learn? We learnt to spell!!!

 

[racer1]

Frontier have more people working on Elite than they have ever had.

I have to say I find this very difficult to believe. Although I guess we don't know what proportion of their time is spent on ED versus other projects.

And that is from someone who doesn't really regard the recent credit exploiting nerf as a bad thing or regard the thargoid weapon nerf as a disaster.

 

[Valorin]

It's so funny how it's all about the guns for you... The xeno sensor and the research limpets, and the anti corrosive cargo hold still work just fine.

 

[Muetdhiver]

> There seem to be some natives attacking our settlers in the pleiades.
>> Well then, let's send the redcoats with a few maxim guns.

Has anyone though that we might be the natives in the story ?

 

[Shanaeri]

I have to say I find this very difficult to believe. Although I guess we don't know what proportion of their time is spent on ED versus other projects.

And that is from someone who doesn't really regard the recent credit exploiting nerf as a bad thing or regard the thargoid weapon nerf as a disaster.

I saw em, in the flesh all beavering away. And they were not cardboard cut outs, dead bodies propped up on the chairs to look busy or interns not knowing what they were doing.

Regarding changing weapons and not the ships. I suspect if you changed the ships it would have all sort of knock on balancing effects which could then require more and more changes down the line.

For example. increase hull strength, that would affect the multi-cannons and what else is coming and needs more regression testing. Change the heart strength, same again.. Changing the missiles effects only affects the missiles and so is much easier to balance.

The only slip up is perhaps the way it was communicated but this too is a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Don't tell people the details. Frontier are too secretive, they're not transparent and why didn't you tell us properly
Tell people the details.. - well look what happens there.

It also needs to be remembered this is but the first part of the story, and as in anything firsts you cannot derive a pattern from just 1 example and secondly this is new territory for Fdev so they should be given some leeway and benefits of the doubt.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I don't mind the changes what winds me up is these constant "glass ceilings" with new content, you are allowed to experience something new but then blocked from progressing further until some developer switch is triggered as opposed to any logical action you take as a player.

 

[Delilah]

I don't really know what to make of this. But i think FD just neglected a large portion of their player base.

I mostly play solo. Yes on Mobius, but still on my own. And i like it that way. The few hours per day i have, i like to do something i enjoy. And for me, that means not being bound to others to do stuff.
I came back from Colonia after the patch, build a ship and went on the hunt for Thargoids. It actually worked. Took down 5 by myself and felt i could actually do something about this.

But now? My ship is useless. Yes, they can still be insta-killed by a group. But for a lone player like me? This new "content" just got locked. And sorry, but "do the CG" does not cut it. I did enough trade-CGs to get sick of it. I won't do that again.

And why do our weapons adapt and not the enemy?

Well, i hope this is a lesson for FD on how to handle this. I will wait for the next "cycle" to see how it plays out. But if i am pushed out of this story again, i'll just fire up the Conda into the black. Better watch the drama on youtube than getting frustrated by it.

o7

Yours is an important point that is often overlooked. Thanks for making it.

 

[Chrysophylax]

I can't help but view the outrage over all of this the same as I would if someone at the movies started screaming about the director or film studio when something didn't go the main character's way in the middle of the film.

Except movies, books, and some forms of theatre are not interactive. So no, a video game that removed player agency in the name of storytelling is not at all analogous to someone screaming at the screen because the protagonist had troubles.

Edit:

This is actually part of a larger struggle that video game storytellers had to overcome in order to create better interactive experiences for players. Taking control away from players is rightly considered one of the biggest sins you can do in a video game, and the current crapstorm is proof of it.

See also: your character acting dumb in cutscenes, choices done not mattering.

 

[Whitehair]

What I don't see anywhere in all the different threads about 'weapon nerf', players refusing to play certain parts of the game anymore, 'FD have scaled down ED development' (really? this over the way a story element was implemented?), 'thargoid disaster' etc etc etc Ad Nauseum

is anyone who has READ the galnet news and absobed the information that the way the AX missiles worked was by using a specific substance. The thargoids have now developed resistance to that substance and so the missiles don't work any more.

The effect is what matters: Thargoids have adapted; We are about to get into an arms race.

The posts stating that the game is doomed, FD are ED running using only few inexperienced and cheap programmers, FD managment is incompetent, etc etc etc Ad Nauseum should all be treated as the stupid knee-jerk reactions of overentitled gamers that they are.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

What I don't see anywhere in all the different threads about 'weapon nerf', players refusing to play certain parts of the game anymore, 'FD have scaled down ED development' (really? this over the way a story element was implemented?), 'thargoid disaster' etc etc etc Ad Nauseum

is anyone who has READ the galnet news and absobed the information that the way the AX missiles worked was by using a specific substance. The thargoids have now developed resistance to that substance and so the missiles don't work any more.

The effect is what matters: Thargoids have adapted; We are about to get into an arms race.

The posts stating that the game is doomed, FD are ED running using only few inexperienced and cheap programmers, FD managment is incompetent, etc etc etc Ad Nauseum should all be treated as the stupid knee-jerk reactions of overentitled gamers that they are.

That's the major issue with gamers knowing everything about the game and demanding mystery and surprise in same time.

Look, it was clunky as hell for those aware what changelog entries mean, but overall it fits narrative.

 

[Shanaeri]

There is no requirement for a single players agency, because in the elite universe the player is an insignificant dot in trillions of other dots. We affect the way game goes as groups, not individuals. So why should you or me make any difference at all?

 

[777Driver]

What I don't see anywhere in all the different threads about 'weapon nerf', players refusing to play certain parts of the game anymore, 'FD have scaled down ED development' (really? this over the way a story element was implemented?), 'thargoid disaster' etc etc etc Ad Nauseum

is anyone who has READ the galnet news and absobed the information that the way the AX missiles worked was by using a specific substance. The thargoids have now developed resistance to that substance and so the missiles don't work any more.

The effect is what matters: Thargoids have adapted; We are about to get into an arms race.

The posts stating that the game is doomed, FD are ED running using only few inexperienced and cheap programmers, FD managment is incompetent, etc etc etc Ad Nauseum should all be treated as the stupid knee-jerk reactions of overentitled gamers that they are.

And that pretty much sums it up.. Although it was a very stupid move from Frontier to add the weapon adjustment to the patch note.

 

[znôrt]

What I don't see anywhere in all the different threads about 'weapon nerf', players refusing to play certain parts of the game anymore, 'FD have scaled down ED development' (really? this over the way a story element was implemented?), 'thargoid disaster' etc etc etc Ad Nauseum

is anyone who has READ the galnet news and absobed the information that the way the AX missiles worked was by using a specific substance. The thargoids have now developed resistance to that substance and so the missiles don't work any more.

The effect is what matters: Thargoids have adapted; We are about to get into an arms race.

The posts stating that the game is doomed, FD are ED running using only few inexperienced and cheap programmers, FD managment is incompetent, etc etc etc Ad Nauseum should all be treated as the stupid knee-jerk reactions of overentitled gamers that they are.

the problem is confusing this nose pulling with engaging storytelling, let alone the players having an actual role or significance in it.

but this is what is offered, and has never been any different, so yes, players are themselves to blame if they indulge, but let them rant at least. you're out of popcorn or what?