The Timescale for 'Walking Around Your Spacecraft & Landing on Planets' Was 2-3 Years

[Riverside]

Nice sleuthing there OP

Some interesting comments in the thread too. I'm very much looking forward to what FDev (eventually) have to say about what's coming after the end of 2020 as well, hopefully with the company's 'use the profits of one game to pay for the next' strategy paying off so well there will be some statement of intent to get back on track.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Some of SC’s struggles with character-scale precision may stem from 64bit positioning (+ networking issues etc), so will be interesting to see
if ED can get those aspects into a robust shape.

Exactly. I know we had a beta where physics was hammered (to test ruins and stuff there, esp. with instancing) but legs takes that a whole order smaller again.

Saying that, legs might be the Rebel Galaxy approach in that the menu becomes more of a "appear outside divebar and select kiosk".

My guess is that FD will 'cheat' in that certain leg areas will be treated like self contained levels (like with training missions being separate) so legs and space are not in the same 'place'.

 

[VR Golgot]

Exactly. I know we had a beta where physics was hammered (to test ruins and stuff there, esp. with instancing) but legs takes that a whole order smaller again.

Saying that, legs might be the Rebel Galaxy approach in that the menu becomes more of a "appear outside divebar and select kiosk".

My guess is that FD will 'cheat' in that certain leg areas will be treated like self contained levels (like with training missions being separate) so legs and space are not in the same 'place'.

Yep, certainly station internals seem like a good bet to be heavily instanced etc, and I can’t believe the main ship internals won’t be either (although the proposed hull breaches do seem to complicate that)

 

[ZeroAi]

TLDR is probably: Legs difficult

As development of the game proceeded, it seems to me like they found many features to difficult to implement.

Take for example that the Anaconda is the only ship that shows physical damage. Man it looks awesome damaged, but sadly no other ship shows this level of detail.

And the fact that we only have one type of SRV. I mean, NMS added several vehicles in a single update, so it seems to be something about Elite.

Then you look at the pull-back of new planet surface visuals, like the awesome "ICE" shown over a year ago, and again it seems to me like something about their engine required significant changes to make it easier for FDev to add certain types of new content to the game, hence the long wait until Holiday 2020 (or later?)

But that's just my opinion ;-)

o7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yep, certainly station internals seem like a good bet to be heavily instanced etc, and I can’t believe the main ship internals won’t be either (although the proposed hull breaches do seem to complicate that)

I wonder seven months or so into the future how we will look back at these threads

 

[VR Golgot]

I wonder seven months or so into the future how we will look back at these threads

Oh man, I’m not even expecting station interiors in the first pass at Legs. Would love it, but it seems safer to keep expectations around the original roadmap tier. (IE Legs split into two deliveries, roughly equating to ship-centric and station-centric).

But yeah, who knows what will actually turn up. (Thargoid scatter cushions are a given though right? )

 

[Reggit]

I wonder seven months or so into the future how we will look back at these threads

We'll either laugh or cry....
....I reserve the right to do both!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

When you dock, quite often (on rotating stations mainly) you can see a very minor 'tremble' as some interaction between the docked ship and the station goes on. I wonder if working at both galactic and human scale has limits with either the engine or this iteration of ED.

Ahh, that. I've only experienced that once or twice since I started playing the game. Hence the reason why I was confused.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Ahh, that. I've only experienced that once or twice since I started playing the game. Hence the reason why I was confused.

Its not a 100% thing, but I imagine it would get much worse the smaller something got. I assume its that the station is rotating and you are 'stuck' to that surface and inheriting that movement, but that parent / child bond is not perfect with a tiny delay between the station rotating and your ship as its docked- hence a jitter.

 

[Vasea Azure]

I`m 100% sure that legs are not the issue, atmospheric planets are. In my opinion judging from the past ED cant handle such a density of PG that is required to make a semi realistic plausible worlds. We cant even have upgraded ice ones.

 

[Rick6549]

When you dock, quite often (on rotating stations mainly) you can see a very minor 'tremble' as some interaction between the docked ship and the station goes on. I wonder if working at both galactic and human scale has limits with either the engine or this iteration of ED.

OH I HATE THAT


The weird thing is, sometimes it doesnt happen.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'm curious what the reaction of this forum will be if the big update isn't space legs.

I'm half hoping it isn't just to watch the meltdowns some people will have.

 

[VR Golgot]

I`m 100% sure that legs are not the issue, atmospheric planets are. In my opinion judging from the past ED cant handle such a density of PG that is required to make a semi realistic plausible worlds. We cant even have upgraded ice ones.

100% seems a bit strong.

The plan seems to have been to add the Legs ‘first step’ for PDLC No 2, so not sure why Atmos tech would have been the primary blocker.

There are also a ton of clear technical challenges with Legs.

I’m no dev, but a few of the more obvious examples:

• Ships being a shared location for multiple Cmdrs, with shared object states for all interactible objects (classic networking hog), which are also part of the broader instance, allowing object transition between the two (purportedly via hull breaches).
• Audio for proc gen NPCs (with their preference being synthetic voices or audio modulation at runtime).
• Space station interiors with variable gravity, potentially proc gen layouts, and associated AI pathing issues.
• VR support and parity issues with classical play for multiplayer FPS (‘never been done before’).

 

[VR Golgot]

I'm curious what the reaction of this forum will be if the big update isn't space legs.

I'm half hoping it isn't just to watch the meltdowns some people will have.

Oh sure, some people would lose it. The rest of us will get a meaty Atmos DLC instead

That said, most of the signs, and all of the shinier entrails, point to a Legs DLC. (It was the original plan for PDLC2, the ‘leak’ has hit its predictions to date, the PDLC is described as noob welcoming and liable to broaden the base, etc etc)

And unfortunately there will be meltdowns in some quarters if so. Which would be silly. Forewarned is forearmed and all that

 

[Arioch]

VR support and parity issues with classical play for multiplayer FPS (‘never been done before’).

Is the “never been done before” thing a dev quote?

I’ve played Payday 2 and No Man’s Sky in VR with flat screen players...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Its not a 100% thing, but I imagine it would get much worse the smaller something got. I assume its that the station is rotating and you are 'stuck' to that surface and inheriting that movement, but that parent / child bond is not perfect with a tiny delay between the station rotating and your ship as its docked- hence a jitter.

We shall see. That also depends if stations are explorable at the beginning.

 

[VR Golgot]

Is the “never been done before” thing a dev quote?

I’ve played Payday 2 and No Man’s Sky in VR with flat screen players...

It’s a tongue-poke at Star Citizen

Genuinely though, nobody has published a VR/classic title at MMO-scale with PvP FPS, which is the ballpark that ED is in (going by their proposals).

There are a ton of challenges there. (Game design and balance for varied input formats, locomotion, UI display, item interaction etc. Plus performance concerns on the VR end. It’s a lot more than it sounds.)

NMS is getting there, but weighted much more towards PvE in low population instances, AFAIK. Payday 2 is 4 player co-op PvE in small maps. (They’re both cool . And great proofs that ‘crossplay’ works with VR, but shy of the above challenges).

The only straight up PvP I know of is in Rec Room, but it’s in small arena maps. (I believe there is much griping about balancing . But it seems to work pretty well from what I’ve tried).

Most other crossover titles are again small player count PvEs in the main, IE The Forest etc.

If ED hits all of its goals for Legs (EVA, station based PvP etc), and retains something close to 32 player instancing, it’ll be breaking some ground. (Not that all of that will definitely happen in the next DLC)

And PS I haven’t mentioned the vehicles . (The odds of ED needing a virtual joystick interface etc, ideally better than NMS’s version to match the flight complexity, is high to me. Seems the only way to pull off a ‘AAA’ transition between legs + vehicles. So... one more thing for the complexity list... )

TLDR: ED would likely be breaking some new ground if they introduced Legs with reasonable VR support.

 

[Arioch]

It’s a tongue-poke at Star Citizen

Genuinely though, nobody has published a VR/classic title at MMO-scale with PvP FPS, which is the ballpark that ED is in (going by their proposals).

There are a ton of challenges there. (Game design and balance for varied input formats, locomotion, UI display, item interaction etc. Plus performance concerns on the VR end. It’s a lot more than it sounds.)

NMS is getting there, but weighted much more towards PvE in low population instances, AFAIK. Payday 2 is 4 player co-op PvE in small maps. (They’re both cool . And great proofs that ‘crossplay’ works with VR, but shy of the above challenges).

The only straight up PvP I know of is in Rec Room, but it’s in small arena maps. (I believe there is much griping about balancing . But it seems to work pretty well from what I’ve tried).

Most other crossover titles are again small player count PvEs in the main, IE The Forest etc.

If ED hits all of its goals for Legs (EVA, station based PvP etc), and retains something close to 32 player instancing, it’ll be breaking some ground. (Not that all of that will definitely happen in the next DLC)

And PS I haven’t mentioned the vehicles . (The odds of ED needing a virtual joystick interface etc, ideally better than NMS’s version to match the flight complexity, is high to me. Seems the only way to pull off a ‘AAA’ transition between legs + vehicles. So... one more thing for the complexity list... )

TLDR: ED would likely be breaking some new ground if they introduced Legs with reasonable VR support.

I’m not sure why having larger numbers of VR and flatscreen players in the same instance would be a problem - the netcode in ED is surely already doing this?

I’ve visited the Hub thing in NMS and there were quite a few players dashing around - my arms outed me as a VR user, I looked like I was doing the Shaggy from Scooby Doo run

Payday 2 players just saw me as another player, the same animations played and there was nothing to really show I was using VR.

I seriously doubt we’ll be getting VR specific control methods, though I’ll be really (reallyreally) happy if FDev implements them. The main problem I can see is PvP - if I’ve got fully tracked arms and room scale movement, I can fire out of cover (un-aimed, of course) while only exposing my weapon (“Matron!”) to my target.

 

[VR Golgot]

I’m not sure why having larger numbers of VR and flatscreen players in the same instance would be a problem - the netcode in ED is surely already doing this?

I’ve visited the Hub thing in NMS and there were quite a few players dashing around - my arms outed me as a VR user, I looked like I was doing the Shaggy from Scooby Doo run

Payday 2 players just saw me as another player, the same animations played and there was nothing to really show I was using VR.

I seriously doubt we’ll be getting VR specific control methods, though I’ll be really (reallyreally) happy if FDev implements them. The main problem I can see is PvP - if I’ve got fully tracked arms and room scale movement, I can fire out of cover (un-aimed, of course) while only exposing my weapon (“Matron!”) to my target.

Yeah it’s the PvP aspect I’m really emphasising as a design challenge. It’s just when you add MMO numbers & scale you’re piling performance challenges on top. Nobody has done a VR/classic crossover on those terms.

I do agree we’ll be lucky to get a classy VR interface, it’s a 2D-first game ultimately. (And only supporting standard controllers would solve many of the parity challenges in one swoop :/). Still got my fingers crossed for a bit of a passion play (& some PS5VR money ) meaning we at least get motion controllers though

 

[Arioch]

Yeah it’s the PvP aspect I’m really emphasising as a design challenge. It’s just when you add MMO numbers & scale you’re piling performance challenges on top. Nobody has done a VR/classic crossover on those terms...

Well I’d point towards NMS once more - in the “Anomaly” there can be 16 players simultaneously, and in the general game there can be up to 32 players on PC.

I’ve been in a large player instance during the SRV planetary expedition; although I’m not a programmer I can’t see how replacing all the SRVs and handful of ships in that instance with the already existing player avatars would constitute a performance/coding challenge.