The Type-10 Defender's handling is so bad that its good

[Stealthie]

Totally agree. The agility of the Corvette is just insane in my opinion. Big ships to my mind should be best working as turret tanks, not like dogfighters.

See, I'd have to admit to being conflicted there 'cos I DO like my Corvettes.

But yeah, when you can keep a Corvette pointed at something like a Vulture or iCourier without too much trouble, something probably needs to change.

Thing is, the Corvette has it's agility, and the Cutter has it's speed.
The Annie's got jump-range but that doesn't really help in combat, and the T10 doesn't really have a lot going for it at all.

That's why I think it might be interesting to boost the Annie & T10s hardpoints, reduce their agility slightly and then see how a turret-boat T10/Annie stacks up against a 'vette or Cutter.
Certainly not suggesting this is a change that should arbitrarily be made but I'd like to see a semi-permanent beta-server where stuff like this could be tested and allow people to provide feedback as to whether or not it's a good idea.

FWIW, I had a quick look and I see that an all-turret T10 has roughly 60% of the DPS of a Corvette with fixed weapons.
To make a turreted T10 a match for a "normal" Corvette, it'd need quite a buff.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

The Annie's got jump-range but that doesn't really help in combat, and the T10 doesn't really have a lot going for it at all.

The Type-10 has character. I know that doesn't actually mean anything in terms of gameplay, but for some people (like me) that does matter. Out of the Big 4 it feels the most different. I think that counts for something.

 

[Speedcuffs]

The Type-10 has character. I know that doesn't actually mean anything in terms of gameplay, but for some people (like me) that does count for something.

Yep, I'll be keeping mine.
It's also why I've got four T-9s.
Character.

 

[The Replicated Man]

So after spending the last couple of days mining Void Opals I found my credit reserves not only restored, but positively overflowinng. So I decided to FINALLY give the Type-10 the shot I have been wanting to give it. I had waited up until now because it was a tremendous amount of money to outfit and I thought it was silly to put that much money into a ship that I was unsure about. But now that I have discovered the infinite credit train that is Deep Core mining that is no longer an issue. And so I traded in my Krait for a Type-10 and sweet mother of all that is holy the handling of the Type-10 is like a slap in the face with a particularly dense and hard to swing baseball bat. Its like flying a Cathedral with a Stadium tied to my back. Except the stadium seats are made of concentrated Neutron Star Material. Handling which was made all the worse by my own stupidity. I forgot to double check the station I was at had my engineered 7A DD thrusters. So I had to fly that monstrosity with 7E thrusters all the way back to Rhea. Which was a 9 jump trip. And don't even get me started on the Supercruise handling. The Type-10 doesn't turn. It orbits. If you blow past a station by accident you would have a quicker time just jumping to the next system and coming back for another try. (Okay not really, but it feels that way almost lol)



And you know what? I could not possibly care less. Despite her handling difficulties she is a genuine joy to fly. The insane lumbering way that she flies is honestly a bit endearing. Its unique. She feels like the first truly unique handling ship I have flown since I flew my Cutter for the first time. You can't just get in and go. You have to learn. And after so many endless hours in this game its nice to have to learn how to properly fly something again. The cockpit view is second to none in my opinion as well. Its like flying in a soap bubble. You see everything! I am looking forward to taking her mining tonight and getting the last of the money that I will need to fully outfit the rest of her and then this weekend I plan to take her into combat.


So how do you all feel about the Battle Cow? Does anyone else feel this way about the Type-10 and the way she handles or am I just a crazy person?

It handles quite nicely in open space with Flight Assist off. I wish they made it a bit more maneuverable in Supercruise as it's almost unbearable to explore or do any long distance jumping in.

 

[DragonIV]

Totally agree. The agility of the Corvette is just insane in my opinion. Big ships to my mind should be best working as turret tanks, not like dogfighters.

I'll note that it is described as a Superheavy Fighter somewhere. That's pretty much spot-on given its handling.

 

[DragonIV]

Prior to this thread I absolutely loved and adored my Type 9. After this thread, I realize I need to take my Type 10 out more!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'll note that it is described as a Superheavy Fighter somewhere. That's pretty much spot-on given its handling.

I still think it needs to be toned down a notch.

 

[Stealthie]

I still think it needs to be toned down a notch.

Trouble is, if FDev decided the agility of the 'vette should be "toned down a notch" it'd probably end-up the same/worse than other ships when, really, agility is the only thing it has going for it.

If they decide to dial-back the agility of the 'vette, they'd bloody-well better dial-back the agility of ALL the other big ships (including the teflon Anaconda) by the same amount.

+EDIT+

Of course, if they dialled-back the agility of the Corvette enough to be significant, and then adjusted all the other big ships to match, the T9 could probably be outmanoeuvred by a glacier on a warm day.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

EDIT: Ignore me. I am dumb.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

EDIT: Ignore me. I am dumb.

* people like the post where you call yourself dumb *

 

[znôrt]

my problem with these big ships is that elite's flight model makes them totally unbelievable. the simple fact that you can rotate a thousand tons behemoth in space to aim a fixed laser against a fast moving target completely destroys my suspension of disbelief, which is quite immune to the same thing with small ships, and can close an eye with mediums. not really about realism but about the feeling that flying a 'big ship' should convey: it doesn't, it just feels silly in general, and is completely off in combat.

that's why i don't usually fly them, and why i don't even enjoy much fighting against them: anacondas spinning around are just embarrassing.

 

[CoyoteXStarrk]

my problem with these big ships is that elite's flight model makes them totally unbelievable. the simple fact that you can rotate a thousand tons behemoth in space to aim a fixed laser against a fast moving target completely destroys my suspension of disbelief, which is quite immune to the same thing with small ships, and can close an eye with mediums. not really about realism but about the feeling that flying a 'big ship' should convey: it doesn't, it just feels silly in general, and is completely off in combat.

that's why i don't usually fly them, and why i don't even enjoy much fighting against them: anacondas spinning around are just embarrassing.

Clearly you haven't flown a Type-10. There is no rotating that Behemoth around. I know because I just spent a few hours bounty hunting in it lol

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If they decide to dial-back the agility of the 'vette, they'd bloody-well better dial-back the agility of ALL the other big ships (including the teflon Anaconda) by the same amount.

Agreed!

 

[znôrt]

Clearly you haven't flown a Type-10. There is no rotating that Behemoth around. I know because I just spent a few hours bounty hunting in it lol

nope, only the t9. it is indeed comparatively a brick but no, doesn't make me feel like i'm flying a big truck.

i agree that may be subjective (i'm talking about the 'feel' anyway) and that sound and slugishness do help a bit, but no, doesn't work for me. rotating such a big thing in space should be a considerable maneuver. then again we would need a new combat model for those ships (as opposed at just depicting them as bigger fighters).

this could simply be seen as just a scale problem. i always thought all ships in elite are much, much bigger than they feel. the eagle feels like a single seat fighter but is actually the size of a building. so they just did scale up smalls and scale down bigs so they could use the same flight model for all. which essentially means: there is no flight model for big ships at all.

 

[Stealthie]

nope, only the t9. it is indeed comparatively a brick but no, doesn't make me feel like i'm flying a big truck.

i agree that may be subjective (i'm talking about the 'feel' anyway) and that sound and slugishness do help a bit, but no, doesn't work for me. rotating such a big thing in space should be a considerable maneuver. then again we would need a new combat model for those ships (as opposed at just depicting them as bigger fighters).

this could simply be seen as just a scale problem. i always thought all ships in elite are much, much bigger than they feel. the eagle feels like a single seat fighter but is actually the size of a building. so they just did scale up smalls and scale down bigs so they could use the same flight model for all. which essentially means: there is no flight model for big ships at all.

See, that's an interesting point and I wonder if it's something that VR makes better or worse.

As you say, an Eagle feels like a fighter even though it's the size of a large yacht.
What's more, for me, the cockpit reinforces the feeling that it's a small ship.

I know VR does a good job of making the cockpits look like "big places" but I don't think that, even with VR, you get a true sense of (in the case of, say, a T9) being sat right at the front of a gigantic spaceship.
Instead, it feels more like you're flying around in a big greenhouse - slowly.

It probably wouldn't do a lot for the gameplay (cos it'd make you feel like you were looking at the world through a letterbox) but I sometimes wonder if ED could do with having a more "nautical" bridge on big ships - something that allowed you to see that you're on top of something huge that's stretching out in front of you.

Obviously, it's a bit unfair to criticise ships like the T9 in this way when it's cockpit IS right in the nose of the ship but, then again, that was a design choice and there's no reason why the cockpit couldn't have been a blister on the top/side/bottom of the ship which did provide a sense of scale when you're flying it.

It might be nice if the view out of the big ships, in ED, was a bit more like this:-

Spoiler

 

[znôrt]

It might be nice if the view out of the big ships, in ED, was a bit more like this:-

i agree. hover, the view from a conda's bridge does seem a bit like that. yes, and even more so in vr. until you hit boost and flip it around

just wishing, which is free, but it would be very cool if, say, condas had a completely different set up as mediums or smalls. e.g., apart from the views, severely limited maneuverability countered with more sophisticated equipment: better radar, maybe showing you predicted trajectories of foes on the hud, highly mobile turrets or even deploy special tactical weapons (thinking force fields, mine nets, mini fighter swarms, stuff like that).

 

[Stealthie]

just wishing, which is free, but it would be very cool if, say, condas had a completely different set up as mediums or smalls. e.g., apart from the views, severely limited maneuverability countered with more sophisticated equipment: better radar, maybe showing you predicted trajectories of foes on the hud, highly mobile turrets or even deploy special tactical weapons (thinking force fields, mine nets, mini fighter swarms, stuff like that).

I was thinking the same thing.

Part of ED's "problem" is that it's all very "point and shoot".
You don't drive a container-ship by looking out the windows, you do it (mostly) using all the instrumentation inside the bridge.

If the view out of big ships was realistic, FDev would need to compensate for that by giving players a lot more in the way of instruments and displays to help fly the ships.

It might actually make for an interesting compromise if it was done correctly, though.
Fly a small/medium ship and it is all very immediate even though the ships aren't terribly powerful.
Move up to a big ship and they're massively armored and powerful but you're forced to rely more on sensors and readouts instead of looking out the windows.

 

[Steyla]

I love all of my big ships. Cutter my main ship. Anaconda my Explorer. Beluga my PAX and Hannibal my Battle Cruiser.
I brought it back to Colonia via NS highway.

Fly/land safe.

CMDR Steyla

 

[znôrt]

I was thinking the same thing.

i still have some sliiiight hopes for fleet carriers. yeah, call me nuts!

 

[S~P]

The T10 is what the T9 SHOULD have been imho. But she still moves like a rogue asteroid, just like the T9.