The unavoidable poll: PvP vs PvE!

[frostypaw]

For a long time the PvE crowd who've not wanted the game to be space invaders have endured god only knows how many accusations of being carebears and getting "salty".

I think the tone of much of this thread, as consensus has become clear, gives away that it's the PvP crowd are the "salty" ones all upset the game isn't the way *they* alone want and busy denigrating and using abusive language about the PvE players and Devs alike to manipulate things around their way.

The constant repetition of nonsense like above - "Solo PvE Hermits" or claims Braben is utterly anti PvP or that the whole game is broken and doomed because of it and their incompetence..... wildly accusing the mods of bias with no sense of perspective of how it looks from the PvE side constantly being told your opinions are worthless and invalid while mods stand by (fairly, both sides are as bad, just saying for perspective)

It's not constructive criticism at all. It's a small portion of kids whining very loudly to get what they want. There is a toxic element on this board indeed with thread after thread of insanely negative unfounded and often easily dismissed claims - but what a horror for anyone wanting to come see what this game's all about

eta>
"hell they have advertised this game as a game where you play with your friends so to say that this feature is a proof that they want more player to player interaction is just false..."
having spent the morning having a great time with a few friends playing together this is pretty much a case in point - why let people just make stuff up randomly to get a rise

(and it was less than a page ago the mods said that once they post opinions in a thread they are no longer involved in moderating it, they don't even read. just making up criticisms until they get their way)

 

[Jack Schitt]

so whilst on paper the project got 1.5 mil or so I wouldn't look back upon it and see it as a highly successful KS. Thats beside the point.

My criteria is more straightforward, and given that the game and these forums exist I would categorise it as very successful, but it's true that it wasn't without its shaky moments. I also wonder whether it would have crossed the line if not for the short-lived promise of an offline mode, but that's for another thread.

But I think the point stands that the much maligned "three modes", so often portrayed as an eleventh hour decision that will be the nails hammered into the coffin of ED come its eventual demise, were right there from day one and IMO encouraged players from different backgrounds and with different skillsets and playstyles to embrace the same project in a way that wouldn't have been possible had it been promoted as wholly solo or wholly co-op or wholly PvP. Whether any one of those groups in isolation would have pledged enough to Kickstart the game in the absence of the others we will probably never know.

Folks might well have eventually responded but this all came from one direction with even Mobius promoting his group by slurring Open, the 'don't spoil my game' mantra. Which negatively and incorrectly catergoried Open as some sort of nightmare experience.

In my experience Mobius' group began as very non-partisan, simply as a way of saying, "Here's a pseudo-mode that's as close as we can get to the mode people are asking for but FD won't provide." More recently, the rhetoric coming from the group and from Mobius himself has been rather more direct in its anti-PvP sentiments, which is a shame. Some of Mobius' personal responses on Reddit and YouTube have been disappointingly low-brow, but then the constant needling he gets from the "opposition" can't be easy to weather. Not making excuses for the guy (I'd have disbanded the group and called it a day long ago, so he clearly has more patience than I do) but it does cut both ways. You just don't always see it in its full-blooded glory on these forums because of the tight moderation.

Even now, despite having solo and a private group focused entirely upon PvE all I see is hate towards Open play where anyone who PvPs is slurred and refered to with pejorative terms. This is not tolerated in the other direction.

I don't think it's an imbalance in tolerance from the moderation team, rather an imbalance in reporting from the community at large. I've had more than a couple of run-ins with the moderation team for what I considered to be inconsistent application of forum rules, culminating in one of my posts being moderated and deleted for "image-only spam" where an identically formatted post was left intact right next to a post by the same moderator. Once it was explained to me that moderators act only upon reports, and not of their own volition, it started to make a bit more sense.* (I then went through a brief period where I reported everything that breached a rule, just to prove a point. But it was very petty so I stopped.)

What I'm saying is if you're seeing what looks to be a bias between people being moderated for crying "carebear", but not for crying "griefer", it may just be that people are more likely to report the former than the latter. To be honest, recently I'm seeing an awful lot of both types of post sitting unmoderated in various threads, from which I can only deduce that people just aren't bothering to report anything any more.

It comes down to PvE fanatics constantly kicking up a fuss and creating endless dramas.

There is that, but it cuts both ways. This thread alone has examples from both entrenched camps. Which is one of the reasons I'm so amazed it's lasted this long. Other threads that have gone in a similar direction have rarely fared so well.

^{*I've seen threads that make me doubt that's applied 100% either, but to discuss further would put me very close to Rule 19...}​

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Perhaps its time for Frontier to staff the moderation of their forums instead of relying upon volunteers. They have 8 mil in cash after all.. In my view its not possible to moderate and engage in a debate at the same time and remain impartial even if those doing so have the best intentions.

To moderate a game forum I'd rather have reasonably level-headed folks who are passionate about the game and who voice their opinions (that are not necessarly aligned with the devs, btw) when they feel like doing so, than normal employees who would just apply rules and may not actually care for the game.

 

[saremun]

It's not constructive criticism at all. It's a small portion of kids whining very loudly to get what they want. There is a toxic element on this board indeed with thread after thread of insanely negative unfounded and often easily dismissed claims - but what a horror for anyone wanting to come see what this game's all about

Oh the irony of that sentence lol, so you call us whining kids and dismiss our views of the game then you talk about how "Toxic" the forum became? the only people calling us whining kids are those whom are quit happy with the game, need nothing more and feel entitled to insult those whom they don't agree with, maybe you should look in the mirror before you accuse us of intoxicating the forum..

The dame game is not your property, we are paying customers just like you so please stop acting like the game is made just for you...

 

[Jack Schitt]

First- If people buy the game on steam or on the website based on the information presented then they have been false advertised by FD, just saying...

And in that regard I am 100% in agreement with you.

Spoiler

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71763&page=3&p=1190029&viewfull=1#post1190029
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128198&p=1965499&viewfull=1#post1965499
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139767&page=2&p=2141513&viewfull=1#post2141513
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=240366&page=2&p=3721735&viewfull=1#post3721735
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=242445&page=2&p=3759119&viewfull=1#post3759119
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=244924&p=3810005&viewfull=1#post3810005

All I'm saying is that if your frustration is with the way FD marketed this game, that's where your annoyances should be directed. At the marketing people. Not at the development team for implementing features that favour play styles that seem to be at odds with what marketing tried to push, nor at the players who enjoy those features.

(I realise in a small company like Frontier that there may be some crossover between development and marketing, with people wearing different hats on different occasions. So aim your frustrations at the hats. The same principle applies).

The Wings is a feature which is used across the two modes Private and Open but is heavily used in Private more than Open

Either way, of no use to the "Solo PVE hermits" you claim FD were favouring.

The point is that people who have a frustration with this game will tend towards a certain type of confirmation bias when it comes to new features. That feature I like? About time. Should have been here since day one. That feature I don't like? Stop pandering to people who aren't me. What's interesting is the number of times that this boils down to, "This isn't the game I thought I was getting." And in most cases, as you've rightfully concluded, that's the fault of the marketing people. Not the developers, and certainly not the players who get enjoyment from the bits you don't.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This in my view is the true essence of this conflict. It comes down to PvE fanatics constantly kicking up a fuss and creating endless dramas.

The people who killed open for me (I can't speak for others) are the ones abusing exploits such as the rocket spammers in a station, code tying up pads so they could RAM for jollies of the Hutton CG, wings of players using the wing exploit to pull in more than the allowed 4 in a group for an already 1 sided fight, using masslock and then low wake shield recharge to stop players from escaping without highwaking, ramming near a station to kill people with no comeback, flying 1% hull eagles with no shilds in front of docking ships etc etc

Some of these cheats are fixed now so arnet but without these people I would still be in open today when my internet allows as I was for the 1st 6 months.

But yes then I found Möbius and all of a sudden even if open was fixed I do not know if I would go back. That is not Möbius fault however

A small minority of players have made their bed and sadly screwed it for decent PvP players too IMO

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

They got the game off the ground with a Kickstarter campaign, the biggest of its kind at the time, based in no small part on those three modes which were clearly understood and embraced. (In my experience, people backing Kickstarter campaigns tend to read the small print more than those who click a Buy Now button on Steam based on 30 seconds of shiny-shiny from the marketing department. YMMV).

I'd say they won big time.


Right. Like when they introduced that Wings release, such a perfect fit for Solo PVE hermits.

Indeed rpthe lone wolf got so screwed with wings and the incoming crew.

Just look at the ddf for how it should have been

 

[STINKFISH]

I don't think there was ever a great exodus from open to group/solo, because of unjust PvP.... Admittedly police response and presence within different systems that have a varied level of lawfulness still needs to be fixed....

But I DO think there WAS a great exodus from games like EvE to Elite : Dangerous of players who resented PvP, and have set a very strong anti PvP agenda within various levels of ED's Dev/Player discussions, in open and closed forums, probably to Elite D's detriment....

 

[saremun]

I don't think there was ever a great exodus from open to group/solo, because of unjust PvP.... Admittedly police response and presence within different systems that have a varied level of lawfulness still needs to be fixed....

But I DO think there WAS a great exodus from games like EvE to Elite : Dangerous of players who resented PvP, and have set a very strong anti PvP agenda within various levels of ED's Dev/Player discussions, in open and closed forums, probably to Elite D's detriment....

Dude just go fly around in Open and you will see what we are talking about, for me when i started playing the game i started with Open right away and didn't even play the tutorial(i watched some videos on docking. combat etc..) but i couldn't even find a way to join a group of people to enjoy the game with but instead i had to go to Twitch and watch some streams to pick a group/clan/corp whatever..

Open should be a place where new players meet to form groups and Alliances but instead it became a hunting ground only for those whom are combat ready because if you are a Trader, Explorer or PVE player then why even bother with Open since you will only lose.

FD need to work on the Reward/Risk factor in game to give an incentive to people to play in Open, they should separate Open from the minor faction activity because the current system just renders the BGS to a PVE only activity.

 

[STINKFISH]

Dude just go fly around in Open and you will see what we are talking about, for me when i started playing the game i started with Open right away and didn't even play the tutorial(i watched some videos on docking. combat etc..) but i couldn't even find a way to join a group of people to enjoy the game with but instead i had to go to Twitch and watch some streams to pick a group/clan/corp whatever..

Open should be a place where new players meet to form groups and Alliances but instead it became a hunting ground only for those whom are combat ready because if you are a Trader, Explorer or PVE player then why even bother with Open since you will only lose.

FD need to work on the Reward/Risk factor in game to give an incentive to people to play in Open, they should separate Open from the minor faction activity because the current system just renders the BGS to a PVE only activity.

I completely agree with you regarding what open should be, and that it is empty - but it is not really a hunting ground for evil seal-clubbers. I have dispatched a few CMDRs at RES's for stealing kills - probably a little underpowered to fight back, and I have been pulled from super-cruise a few times - and died, but once I learned to submit to the interdiction, and put 4 pips into engines and get the hell out - I was never really hassled - and it was all good fun.


ANd I agree with the risk/reward thing - to populate Elites systems and let CMDRs see each other, but correctly policed in the varying law-lawless systems, to allow non-pvp specialized CMDRs to choose how far they want to dip their toes into a potential pvp-encounter. The current state is just all invisible walls, and no freedom of choice.

 

[saremun]

I completely agree with you regarding what open should be, and that it is empty - but it is not really a hunting ground for evil seal-clubbers. I have dispatched a few CMDRs at RES's for stealing kills - probably a little underpowered to fight back, and I have been pulled from super-cruise a few times - and died, but once I learned to submit to the interdiction, and put 4 pips into engines and get the hell out - I was never really hassled - and it was all good fun.


ANd I agree with the risk/reward thing - to populate Elites systems and let CMDRs see each other, but correctly policed in the varying law-lawless systems, to allow non-pvp specialized CMDRs to choose how far they want to dip their toes into a potential pvp-encounter. The current state is just all invisible walls, and no freedom of choice.

Yeah agree!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So long as some players make "pvp builds" which are totally useless at anything in the game other than fighting hollow boxes but that are WAY better at said hollow box hunting than any ship which is built to do actually career progression then IMO a subset of people just will not have interest in open.

I genuinely cannot think of A way to make it work for the good of everyone IMO I wish I could asmi would make a lot of money selling it!!.

So the only fallback I can think of is to look back at the kick-started and the ddf and go with that.

 

[Zeta Legion]

Indeed rpthe lone wolf got so screwed with wings and the incoming crew.

Just look at the ddf for how it should have been

To be fair the game should have launched with wings. It's stupid to have a multiplayer game where you can't effectively group up for co-operative play, be it PvP or PvE.

What does irk me about wings and player crew is FDevs staunch refusal to pursue NPC crew or wings despite the fact that would be content available for everybody from all game modes.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

To be fair the game should have launched with wings. It's stupid to have a multiplayer game where you can't effectively group up for co-operative play, be it PvP or PvE.

What does irk me about wings and player crew is FDevs staunch refusal to pursue NPC crew or wings despite the fact that would be content available for everybody from all game modes.

Exactly. Hell maybe it is not in there now (I have not looked in ages) but even in the training missions iirc one was with NPC wingmen. It blows my mind they were cut from the game. I have no issue with player wings (I use them myself) or player crew (no interest to me personally) but surely they have to be along side NPC options too. Even wing commander in the early 90s had NPC wing men

 

[Zeta Legion]

Exactly. Hell maybe it is not in there now (I have not looked in ages) but even in the training missions iirc one was with NPC wingmen. It blows my mind they were cut from the game. I have no issue with player wings (I use them myself) or player crew (no interest to me personally) but surely they have to be along side NPC options too. Even wing commander in the early 90s had NPC wing men

Wolf Pack I believe has NPC wingmates.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
Indeed the lone wolf got so screwed with wings and the incoming crew.

Just look at the ddf for how it should have been

It seems to me, that FD would really, really like to have people playing together, as pretty much all content is starting to favor those in wings / groups, and indeed, the tougher NPCs are a continuation of that. (I'm not saying they are too tough, and it seems reasonable that many if not most players should require help in taking out an Elite NPC in a well equipped large, weaponized combat ship ).

The reluctance to provide NPC wingmen though is disappointing. Since they keep saying 'play your way', they should just accept that some people don't want to play with others, stop trying to entice them to do so, and give them the tools to play the game, whether that be NPC wingmen, or NPC multi-crew.

 

[Sandmann]

FD need to work on the Reward/Risk factor in game to give an incentive to people to play in Open,

I always think it's funny that people want reward/risk altered to get people out of solo/group and into open, but they they don't want to actually have any risk for the pvp-ers.

they should separate Open from the minor faction activity because the current system just renders the BGS to a PVE only activity.

The BGS -is- a PvE-only activity. It's been shown over and over and pver... PvP has ZERO direct impact on the BGS and negligable indirect impact. If you want to affect the BGS or negate the effect others have on it, you HAVE to do PvE. This is just an excuse for punishing people for having fun where you can't shoot them.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The reluctance to provide NPC wingmen though is disappointing. Since they keep saying 'play your way', they should just accept that some people don't want to play with others, stop trying to entice them to do so, and give them the tools to play the game, whether that be NPC wingmen, or NPC multi-crew.

This is so true. I am all for tough NPCs it makes sense but once they are in the game it means NPC wingmen are even more a necessity IMO

 

[frostypaw]

Oh the irony of that sentence lol, so you call us whining kids and dismiss our views of the game then you talk about how "Toxic" the forum became? the only people calling us whining kids are those whom are quit happy with the game, need nothing more and feel entitled to insult those whom they don't agree with, maybe you should look in the mirror before you accuse us of intoxicating the forum..

The dame game is not your property, we are paying customers just like you so please stop acting like the game is made just for you...

Actually I really want you guys to express your views, I really want them to be listened to and taken into account - that's kinda why I get so upset at the farce that is made (by some, not pointing at you specifically) about This or That idea (owning space/forced open) which is apparently the be all and end all of Elite's success

The good points get drowned out in a bucketload of posturing and badmouthing of people who are working very hard, while denigrating and belittling the rest of the player base to ensure Their points get heard first and acted on - before everyone leaves and the game dies etc etc

If there's going to be change then people have to learn how to work together, much as in the game world - if we can't all play together then we won't really make progress.

The mode argument is the case in point where the loudest proponents of The One Mode tend to be the people working hardest to drive people away from it - and then they come on here and accuse FDev of being complete morons incapable of making a game that lets them do what they thought it said on the box (kill people all day).

And as with this poll in the end we almost all want the same thing - to be able to all play together in The One Mode - just in one that works for everyone and isn't horribly imbalanced. We could all work towards that instead and not keep ripping the game apart first

 

[saremun]

Actually I really want you guys to express your views, I really want them to be listened to and taken into account - that's kinda why I get so upset at the farce that is made (by some, not pointing at you specifically) about This or That idea (owning space/forced open) which is apparently the be all and end all of Elite's success

The good points get drowned out in a bucketload of posturing and badmouthing of people who are working very hard, while denigrating and belittling the rest of the player base to ensure Their points get heard first and acted on - before everyone leaves and the game dies etc etc

If there's going to be change then people have to learn how to work together, much as in the game world - if we can't all play together then we won't really make progress.

The mode argument is the case in point where the loudest proponents of The One Mode tend to be the people working hardest to drive people away from it - and then they come on here and accuse FDev of being complete morons incapable of making a game that lets them do what they thought it said on the box (kill people all day).

And as with this poll in the end we almost all want the same thing - to be able to all play together in The One Mode - just in one that works for everyone and isn't horribly imbalanced. We could all work towards that instead and not keep ripping the game apart first

If Frontier wants to avoid PVP in game and focus on Pve then i think they should provide a mod where you can't attack any other pilot in that case people will be able to play together however they can change the statues of the Anarchy systems so that they are PVP free for all, in this case they will provide both PVE and PVP in one community!

 

[Garbarrage]

If that mentality can somehow be proliferate instantaneously, we'll achieve world peace. Kant can finally rest in peace in his grave instead of tossing around like crazy.

I doubt it. He's probably too busy giggling like a little girl watching Bertrand Russell's ghost continue its downward spiral into madness, trying to rationalise his new found state of existence.