This is why I worry about the future of ED - it's FDev themselves
- Thread starter FatFreddysCoat
- Start date
So much passion here!
The loudest seeming to be "I want the way I play to be the only way!" (shortened and paraphrased by me, of course) so of course I expect everyone who has contributed to the thread to stop playing their way and to only explore in Solo, NOW! (otherwise I shall be forced to complain bitterly to FDev that the game doesn't play how I wanted)
Levity aside...
I own a lot of games I no longer play as I have either finished them and they don't warrant a re-play, or the game wasn't what I expected it to be and I lost interest. I've probably spent around 600 hours in ED to date (both pancake and VR) and appear to have barely started! (I have zero interest in PvP or PP and don't even know how BGS works or if it influences how the game plays) My social forays into Open have generally ended up being at the wrong end of another players gunsights and a rebuy as Open is obviously assent to PvP and a lightly shielded trader/explorer build is obviously a formidible enemy to be exterminated at once by a combat built ship...
Q4 will bring changes, most of the loudest voices here will dislike what has been done (I predict) and be equally loud that THEIR gameplay is even worse that it was.
I don't mind what Q4 brings, I'll keep on playing my way (in Solo, of course - even if it does get a bit lonely at times) and may even have my gameplay enhanced by the new exploration / mining mechanics, but to be honest, I don't care, if the game doesn't attract me any more I won't play it - and promise I won't come here to bleat about it!
The loudest seeming to be "I want the way I play to be the only way!" (shortened and paraphrased by me, of course) so of course I expect everyone who has contributed to the thread to stop playing their way and to only explore in Solo, NOW! (otherwise I shall be forced to complain bitterly to FDev that the game doesn't play how I wanted)
Levity aside...
I own a lot of games I no longer play as I have either finished them and they don't warrant a re-play, or the game wasn't what I expected it to be and I lost interest. I've probably spent around 600 hours in ED to date (both pancake and VR) and appear to have barely started! (I have zero interest in PvP or PP and don't even know how BGS works or if it influences how the game plays) My social forays into Open have generally ended up being at the wrong end of another players gunsights and a rebuy as Open is obviously assent to PvP and a lightly shielded trader/explorer build is obviously a formidible enemy to be exterminated at once by a combat built ship...
Q4 will bring changes, most of the loudest voices here will dislike what has been done (I predict) and be equally loud that THEIR gameplay is even worse that it was.
I don't mind what Q4 brings, I'll keep on playing my way (in Solo, of course - even if it does get a bit lonely at times) and may even have my gameplay enhanced by the new exploration / mining mechanics, but to be honest, I don't care, if the game doesn't attract me any more I won't play it - and promise I won't come here to bleat about it!
In the grim darkness of the fourth millennium there is only wah.
The BGS is great stuff, it gives purpose to space pootling and tinkering.
Eso, arma, x3 just to name a few…
Of those three games, Arma 3 has a listed Average Total Steam Playtime higher than 25hr: it's at 242hr.
Arma 2 is at 7.2hr. X3 Reunion is at 9hr. X3 Terran Conflict is at 17.1hr.
Elite Dangerous is at 73.4hr.
Do not confuse your own personal gaming preferences for those of the wider gaming public.
In related data, on Steam only 9 games have a Higher Average Playtime than Elite Dangerous' (20.4hr) for the past two weeks - in descending order they are: Final Fantasy 14 (38hr), Black Desert Online, Clicker Heroes, DOTA 2, Path Of Exile, CS:GO, NBA 2k19, Black Squad, and Rust (20.6hr).
Arma 3 is at 16.9hr, and ESO is at 13.9hr.
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Rafe Zetter
Banned
Pretty much my viewpoint on it. It all just seems so "amateur hour" - I referred previously to SC's "10 for the chairman" and no matter how obscure the question - and some fans really know the minutae of the game - Chris Roberts was able to switch gears and answer them, with a fully fleshed out, "makes sense" answer; no-one ever had to "push hard" for something tangiable, it was all laid out, within the realms of disclosure - and for SC at least there's little that goes under the heading "we can't talk about that" - and it's Cloud Imperiums biggest asset in the dev / player relationship.
Either Ed & Will didn't do thier research, or the content isn't anywhere near completed - in which case this sounds a bit like an informal "player council session" to me, as StuartGT said the players were "heads of player groups" and associated people of interest within the community, although the whole "behind closed doors" cherrypicked approach to the selection of those 17 stinks more than a little.
As someone else said, it smells of a rushed PR stunt to get them onside to help them influence the wider playerbase that "everything's fine, it's all good and my personal favorite "we are all very excited about what's coming (tm)" "
Rafe Zetter
Banned
Ok I'll answer the last one first - how many do I have on ignore? Just 1 - stigbob, (hello stigbob) and for one simple reason, because almost every post he makes it reads "I dont play that part of the game so I'm ok with any issues it has" - or some variation; as interesting to read as used toilet paper, and even less useful. Not even m00ka after he sent an insulting PM, "keep your enemies close" and all that.
Honestly - I did consider Cmdr Eagleboy after his amazing "you not no proof" post, but after I calmed down a little and remembering he's an otherwise good chap - I didn't do it.
Hmm game design on demand.
You make an interesting point and a valid one - but, isn't every producer of everything "on demand" in some way or another? Reacting to consumer need and or desire of the moment is pretty much "de rigueur" for all business's of that ilk.
Occasionally a producer will have a great idea that fills a niche and start a new trend, but then everyone else will be falling over themselves to get a slice of that cake.
Games design is no different - making a space based game now without certain aspects that are now considered an absolute requirement by the players is foolish in the extreme. A working player reactive economy - has been an absolute requirement since 2000 with the X Series.
Mining - also an absolute requirement etc etc.
ED has them, sure, but anyone who claims they are "complete" is deluding himself - FDev, added these things then seemingly sat back and watched to see what was used the most and developed it further, everything else got left by the wayside "as is".
There's no part of any current existing content, future planned content or even ANYTHING laid out in the KS that was "new and revolutionary" there's no "new" ideas to be had for space sims, not even spacelegs, because the X series had EVA from #2 onwards back in the 2000's.
So "game design by expecation" is no different than "game design on demand" - not in any real sense. The only devs that do try to break out of that are indies, but even then it's still quite formulaic except for some VERY VERY VERY rare outliers, like that indie game of a dude in a bucket and have to use a pickaxe to climb over a mountain.
Rather than go on and on I'm going to leave you with this final statement from FDev - easily verifiable - a known catch 22 they seem completely happy with doing nothing to fix:
(Paraphrased) "if you want us to further develop CqC - you need to play it more".
Game design on demand?
That's FDev's MO.
Oh - sorry one last thing - it seemed more than a little coincedental that the last year of development has been about "core development" and the announcement came only weeks after another flare up in the forum of "FIX THIS STUFF!!!!"
It absolutely WAS an "on demand" reaction from FDev.
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I'm not sure that CR spouting the first thing that comes into his head whilst an army of developers silently weep and add another three year's work on to their schedule should really count as an improvement on FDev's approach. I mean it's different for sure, no argument there but I'm not sure it's objectively better.
Rafe Zetter
Banned
So you're saying that I should somehow be able to give concrete, defined answers when all I've been given to work with is something as nebulous (google it) as "maybe" ?
good luck with that.
I can't win here because if I had given definitive statements on what I though FDev were doing you'd be yelling "you got no proofs - it's just subjective speculation!" so I speculated and you shot me down anyway.
Seems to me you're just arguing against my case for the sole purpose of scoring points rather than have any valid answers of your own.
I've seen a lot of rants, but this one is truly special, I give you that!
Maybe you're the kind of person who likes having your time wasted - me, I've got a business to run and if FDev asked me to attend an "unveil" of new content and then didn't "unveil" much of anything I'd be annoyed, and I'd tell them, because chances are the other attendees had to take time off work (using part of thier allowance) to get information they could have gotten from the internet.
Getting up and walking off because I have someplace else better and more productive to be, is my absolute right as a human being, I don't owe FDev a damn thing, because they were doing that presentation to SELL A PRODUCT - if you don't understand that - well then you'll be sitting through quite a lot of crap in your life. If you enjoy that sort of thing - contact 20 double glazing companies and tell them you want some - go on, it'll be funny.
I firmly beleive this was, in part, a PR damage control exercise.
Asking for years and years for FDev to "BLOODY FIX STUFF" isn't demanding "reactionary developing" - it's called "getting the product you paid for / were told you'd be getting" - now I can see where you might be confused by that, but trust me - 30 years from now once you've lived a bit more and had to deal with companies and tradesmen etc who don't do what you paid them for, you'll understand.
Almost everything that gets "demanded" by players for FDev to develop was already spoken of BY FDEV DURING THE KICKSTARTER.
So how it is possible that these requests are for "developing by demand?"
Go on - answer that genius.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/444042-Broken-promises-2-years-on?highlight=2+years+on
Pretty disingenuous and gives your whole post an aggressive flavor - don't expect me (or others) to give you much respect in future. You'll get LOTS of attention, but no respect, and at least I'm up front about it.
Rafe Zetter
Banned
I highly doubt that is even remotely the case and is just another line from the "CR IS CRAP, SC IS CRAP, IT'S ALL CRAP" brigade of which I already know you are a fully paid up member red.
If you think stuff just gets added to the dev plan "on CR's whim" then you've not been paying attention, but then if you had been, you'd not be saying the above either. You've made your mind up on CR and SC, that's fine, but I think I'm secure in my beleif that more than a few ED players would prefer SC's approach to how information gets to the players instead of the mostly radio silence of FDev's.
Are you aware that David Braben has spent his entire working life making Elite games? To assume that he, or the team that he employs to make his game, would intentionally do anything that they thought wasn't for the best for the game, is nonsense.
Nobody is perfect, but the fact is that 100 people are working very hard to improve a game of unprecedented scale.
Every report I've seen from the people who attended Frontier's presentation was extremely positive. This entire thread is based on reading too much into a throwaway comment, and frankly seems to be being relished by doom junkies for no reason other than indignant rage can be quite a fun emotion, if you're into that kind of thing.
Nobody is perfect, but the fact is that 100 people are working very hard to improve a game of unprecedented scale.
Every report I've seen from the people who attended Frontier's presentation was extremely positive. This entire thread is based on reading too much into a throwaway comment, and frankly seems to be being relished by doom junkies for no reason other than indignant rage can be quite a fun emotion, if you're into that kind of thing.
Both of you are trying way too hard. Give it a rest, will you?
__
Regarding the thread topic, I share the frustration. So many decisions have been made that are out-of-touch, that would have been different & better had Fdev approached a dedicated gamer, someone that intimately knows how it feels to play their game and other games besides.
It's been over a year now and there's still been dead silence on their part regarding NPC crewmembers and the related shenanigans that I and many others have been repeatedly complaining about since their release.
There could not be a bigger sign that the decision-making management thinks they know better than the players do about how it feels to play their own game.
This too goes for combat balance, Engineers, the mission board, Powerplay - there are so many issues with this game that COULD have been avoided, that COULD still be rectified and fixed right now, if only players did actually have more input on design changes.
But that would require whomever is 'in charge' to first get out of their own way, for the better of realizing the potential of this game.
That word "potential" keeps coming up. The fact that "potential" is still the biggest selling point of Elite is also its biggest flaw.
Rafe Zetter
Banned
i agree with the gist of your post but game design on demand is a thing. actually, frontier have been working 'for hire' for most of their history. of course that doesn't mean sucking out the design from a disorganized crowd, and i guess in each project they had varying implication in the design and specifications, from 2.8 to 100+ depending on the client, but yeah, games can be and are developed on demand. at the end of the day, games are software.
another thing are games with open development plans and counting on active input from the playerbase. there are several examples of that too, with varying degrees of success. of course that's complicated, it does require very commited communities, and the developer has always the last word. then it's also not always about letting players dictate the design or features, but about adapting sensibly to player reactions.
what strikes me a bit is you describing elite as suffering from too much player input. this is a recurrent meme around here but imo mostly false, and only applies to very specific and secondary aspects. e.g. ship transfers, weapon balancing, mission payouts. i don't know of any core aspect of elite that traces back to player demand if we except the very early design discussion phase (and i'm not really sure that corresponds very much to the final game). e.g. rumor has it that frontier asked the community if they would prefer a subscription based server approach, or rather not. i don't know if they actually cited p2p as an alternative, but i doubt the playerbase was made aware of the consequences and compromises of such a decision. so the question 'do you want to pay monthly or not' might have been a tainted one. apart from that initial era and some minor aspects, most of the content and core aspects after that i've seen literally come out of the blue and as a (not always happy) surprise to the playerbase.
then again player driven design can be quite elastic: players will demand it all, even contradicting stuff. you pick as you wish from that list and can still say you have pleased the playerbase, even though you have only taken part of it into account, and the game's 'face and edges' are still on you
Lovely answer there znort - repped. Sums him up perfectly.
"game is suffering from too much player input"
"can't have game design on demand [of players] concept doesn't work"
Either FDev ARE developing ED based on player feedback or they AREN'T, Pick a side pico - but just one.
(and Pico claims I know nothing).
Have you asked why? Not because CQC is bad, but badly implemented. None wants to sit and look at the matching screen doing nothing. Most other games have queuing system that works in the background while you're playing the main game.
Speaking of the player base, yes, both Twitch and Steam stats have Elite barely reaching the census of 100 most played games or not even that (as of today - no ED in the list!) and Twitch ED viewer base is beyond pathetic. It's quite poor and I agree whoever said - stagnant at best. Isn't surprising considering their loooooooooong time to add/fix/change anything big in this game. Even stuff previously announced for Q4 have been postponed.
People lose interest and patience and just move on - which isn't hard to do for Elite you know. It's not like we're swimming in the content... There will be 4 full years for us to get proper exploration and mining tools, hello? And we still don't know whether they will be fun or not...
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Rafe Zetter
Banned
Maybe you have a point "in general", I'm not going to refute or confirm that. But when it comes to ED, my approach is more similar to that of a fine piece of art or say a piece of music. Which in light of the fantastic audio team isn't all too far fetched, don't you think so? To me the whole game is at least 30% art, not just a "product". Maybe to help you understand my point of view, let's try to imagine you're going to visit a concert of a band that your friends are totally amazed of, but after listening the first 20 minutes you just find out that it's absolutely not your cup of tea.
What are you doing now? Trying to disturb the concert and convincing the musicians to play some other sort of music? Or leaving the event and demand your money back? You certainly can see how ridiculous that would be.
You might not share my point of view and that's perfectly ok. I'm not on a crusade to convince anyone from my PoV and feel free to treat ED like any other industrial 'product' with certain commonly excepted minimal requirements. But I hope you'll understand now why certain approaches of players to the game are alienating me to no end.
That said, I still think what you consider an "absolute requirement" for a game exists mainly in your head. If we are back to art (if you still can follow) then your approach is comparable to only accepting naturalistic paintings while calling out that as an absolute requirement for paintings. And I'm pretty sure you would easily find enough supporters for this notion. That's were the echo chamber effect comes in.
Sorry if that still doesn't cut it, but that's the best I could possible come up with. If you still don't get my point I'd suggest we'll just leave it at that. As you hopefully understand, as soon as it comes to art or music, our opinions are highly subjective. And if you don't see the parallels to art and music, we don't even have a common ground for a halfway fruitful discussion.
On that note, have fun and good luck on your crusade to make ED a better game!
Ok a calm and seemingly not aggressive post so I'll answer as I can.
Yes the game has lovely aspects, never denied it, and often praised those parts of it.
I think you (and others) are seemingly under the impression that I'm here for the sole purpose to kick over the tables and generally be an ashat - simply not true!
I've been to lots of music concerts and had varying degrees of satisfaction - but those are usually to do with the sound rather than the actual content - live music is quite hard to get right (I know, I have a friend who was ex BBC sound department doing OB's - outside broadcasts). I have on occasion had a disappointing experience when a band that sounds great in studio, come across less well live and you realise that the music you hear on the radio has been heavily altered, the lead singers voice has been added to by another better singer who's not part of the band (yes that happens quite a lot) and other such shenagins.
But I've never been to an Irish folk gig (you REALLY SHOULD, utterly romping, stamp your feet and bang the tables, or break your heart melancholic, songs) and been subjected to death metal.
I don't think the "absolute requirements" are in my head at all - it's just the nature of the beast. There are space games that just focus on pew pew, or the flight mechanics, but once you get into the realms of where ED wants to position itself in the marketplace, then those "absolute requirements" become err... required. ED is in the same "slot" as the X series, Freelancer, and most importantly is supposed to be the only "true" heir to Frontier: EII and Frontier: FE - all of which had the requirements of which I spake.
My questions towards FDev have always had the basis of "how can you call it part of the Elite franchise yet have gameplay that's WORSE than it was 20+ years ago?"
I'm not asking you to share my viewpoint - I've never required that of anyone, but I do at least expect people to understand certain fundamentals, and when they try to argue "black is purple, coz reasons, even though it was sold as black, and should be black not purple, but it's purple and that's ok" I'm going to have a problem with it, and for those that think I'm just rabid about ED you're wrong, I don't like "sales double speak" wherever it comes from, it's deceitful, and deliberately so.
I love all forms of art, music, literature and creativeness overall (my biggest regret is I won't live long enough lifes vast variety) - I'll celebrate with anyone something that I "just don't get" like a Pollock or even an Emin (god she's weird) but that has clearly got a specific meaning and had a lot of labour and love poured into it, except that infamous pile of bricks.. £2 million? lmao, they were clearly trolling.
My point is my "not getting it" doesn't create within me an automatic "it has to be changed" reaction.
My business is about making things, making things to other peoples specifications, and often following specific trends, regardless of how I personally feel about them - like the current trend for pale wood furniture, it's bland, BORING. Now ofc sometimes I have to impose my own choices on them, but most of those are to do with the fundamentals of a thing, "yes you can have a 3 legged chair, but only in this specific way, otherwise it'll fall over".. or "no I'm not prepared to make that for you despite it being possible, because you'll forever be complaining how uncomfortable it is to everyone you talk to, and people will think it's my fault and I won't be there to set them straight (because human nature is such that no-one ever admits it's thier fault when the design is bad), no, money isn't going to fix it because my reputation is worth more" (yes I've had that conversation).
So, with ED, the entire fire of my passion comes from KNOWING FDev and DB CAN deliver what was laid out in the KS, because it's been done elsewhere, and done well, yet for reasons I am utterly unable to fathom they just DON'T - even though they took our money and told us they would.
As a "maker of things" you couldn't do any more hurt to my beliefs than that.
Oh and one last thing I've NEVER taken money for a project I knew I couldn't deliver EXACTLY what was said, to the absolute letter. So when it seems like I'm being all "high and mighty" on principles about delivering what was said, I have absolutely earned that right, and lost a LOT of money in keeping those principles. Most years I barely get by, but my conscience is clear; as if today right now, FDev and DB cannot say the same.
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Rafe Zetter
Banned
At least you don't know anything about me. I even agree with the highlighted part of your last sentence, believe it or not.
p.s.: Ah I think I see were you got me wrong. I actually do think the game is suffering from too much pressure from us players but I also think this shouldn't be the case. That's unfortunately not me to decide. Got it now?
Umm he's not the leader anymore and hasn't been for some time - his "majority share" is only 37% (if memory serves) and he can be outvoted by 2/3 of the board on any given choice at any time - and when development time and money is concerned he has to go to them, cap in hand.
Nope - ED isn't being steered by DB for some time now, and honestly I think he's not really much part of the company as a whole.
When was the last time you had any press releases DIRECT from DB? 3 years? Not just for ED I mean ANY of FDev's franchises.
Happy to be proven wrong as I don't trawl the 'net for his stuff - But i doubt I'm far off the mark.
2018 Annual Report - two full pages from DB, plus paragraphs on other pages.
Recent press articles featuring DB interviews:
- https://gamedaily.biz/article/194/david-braben-why-the-industry-needs-the-return-of-the-publisher
- http://www.cambridgeindependent.co....rk-evolution-success-and-the-future-1-5630901
- https://variety.com/2018/gaming/features/david-braben-interview-1202846009/
- https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-06-29-frontier-we-want-to-become-a-third-party-publisher
- https://wccftech.com/frontier-next-game-unveiled-late-2018
- https://venturebeat.com/2018/06/20/...up-movie-games-with-jurassic-world-evolution/
Agree with your assesment of FDev skills at playing their own game. But why would you take a Cutter on a combat mission, WHY??!?!?!?!!?!?!?
I would take a Cutter on a combat mission, (in fact the only time I've flown a Cutter at all was into a random CZ as a long range beam laser turret boat during the 90% off sale during the 3.0 Beta) but I would consider it a failed mission if my shields dropped.
Whilst I can't completely refute your characterisation there, it would be considerably more fair to say I'm a member of the 'has played every single game the guy has been even tangentially involved with and have an entirely realistic opinion of his ability to deliver a) on time and b) within budget' brigade.
I can't be salty about SC Rafe because I didn't back it for exactly that reason. I devoutly hope that it gets a full release and is awesome. I just can't see it happening with nobody to wind in some of his more outrageous flights of fancy and yes, there have been plenty of those.
I'm sure some E D players would prefer the approach initially. However I suspect that when they realised just how much of it is smoke, mirrors and handwavium, their appetite for it may tail off somewhat.
Whatever you may think though, don't mistake my scepticism for a tribal attitude because it just isn't.
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