Throw Down

[Ziljan]

Wr3nd, you sing the song of my people. I see the depth of the game as vanishing to be honest. There is a rich core code of the game that is deep and engaging and even challenging on the first iteration, but piece by piece every remnant of depth is being hacked and boiled away into easily digestible sugary pudding so that feeble toothless vagrants can wander in, take 3 sloppy spoonfuls and then wander out again.

I get that Frontier must please a spectrum of players, but what about the people who thrive on challenge and growth? Where is our corner of Elite?

 

[CMDR Aengus]

If you cant beat yourself...

... oh, wait, wrong forum.

 

[Riverside]

I get that Frontier must please a spectrum of players, but what about the people who thrive on challenge? Where is our corner of Elite?

I agree with you on that, you should be able to find a suitable challenge, if you are prepared to go & find it.

 

[Obi0914]

Sounds like you need to play another game

 

[Ziljan]

I agree with you on that, you should be able to find a suitable challenge, if you are prepared to go & find it.

Wrong. A challenge level should exist for every mechanic in the game. From fuel scooping to interdicting. It shouldn't be hard to find. It should be as ubiquitous as the stars.

And yes, there should also be options for buying your way out of the challenge with gear or engineering. But Easy Mode should not be the default and ONLY option, with rare oddball challenges that require you to behave in some unnatural way, like hauling rares/mats on a combat ship, or massacring police in swaths just to get a halfway decent fight with a non-narcoleptic bounty hunter.

 

[StiTch]

It would be really great if ED was like that! Faction wars to win, murderous psychopaths to eliminate, assassinations to avenge, territory or trade routes to defend.
But the total lack of any consequence for action in the game removes that gameplay.

"Killing" someone (whatever the scenario), when they can just part with a few credits and come back to exactly the same situation in a few minutes, is utterly, utterly pointless.
As "killing" someone is really the only point to PvP, this means that PvP in ED is utterly, utterly pointless. (As a majority of CMDRs have worked out)

Powerplay was introduced with the purpose of adding dynamic context to interactions around the bubble, heavily aimed at player interactions-it just didn't work well. Much of the balancing is assisted by PvPers, and balanced towards preventing unbalanced PvE AND PvP.

Explorers, meanwhile...wheres their content? Does this mean that because you can can dim exploration down to meaningless honk/scan (of which many will agree with), exploration is utterly meaningless?

OP does not seem to realize that he can make the game as hard as he likes - even impossible.
To keep using fully engineered ships against NPCs and expect any challenge shows a severe lack of imagination.

Right...so the substitute for a lack of content is imaginationz? Glad you got this covered! Because we've never heard the "if you want challenge, dim yourself down" argument before. So all them engineer mods that ED introduce...the tender balancing, the grade five modifications...they are so cared for because they want us to have tools that make the game boring? They want to trivialise combat, right?

Or is it that they're there for the hardcore PvPers? Oh wait, I forgot PvP is utterly meaningless

 

[Riverside]

It shouldn't be hard to find.

I see some hypocrisy here Ziljan

Perhaps part of the challenge you seek can be that it's an achievement just to find it.

I broadly agree with your views on stuff like fuel scooping & buying an easy life, it should require some experience to do it well, but I don't think I would want everything to always be difficult, that's a game I would quickly tire of.

I like driving. I drive the same roads that everyone else does getting from A-B with as little thought as possible, but I derive satisfaction & challenge from them where others simply want to get to where they are going. It's the same road, used in a different way.

I don't ask everyone else to drive the way I do, nor do I expect everyone to practice or concentrate as much I do.

 

[Ziljan]

I see some hypocrisy here Ziljan

Perhaps part of the challenge you seek can be that it's an achievement just to find it.

I broadly agree with your views on stuff like fuel scooping & buying an easy life, it should require some experience to do it well, but I don't think I would want everything to always be difficult, that's a game I would quickly tire of.

I like driving. I drive the same roads that everyone else does getting from A-B with as little thought as possible, but I derive satisfaction & challenge from them where others simply want to get to where they are going. It's the same road, used in a different way.

I don't ask everyone else to drive the way I do, nor do I expect everyone to practice or concentrate as much I do.

Hypocrisy? I think you're looking at the world through your own filter. I don't see searching through a pile of tomato's for an apple as a challenge. I see it as a nuisance.

Grinding isn't a challenge. Exploration isn't a challenge. Learning mechanics is a challenge. And the mechanics should be ubiquitous, not hiding under a rock near Beagle Point.

To be clear, I've spent the lion's share of my time in Elite figuring out the mechanics of every aspect of the game. From the BGS, to the astrphysicsl basis of the Stellar Forge, to the shield and hull mechanics of rails vs PAs. There is hardly a stone inside ED's black box that I haven't examined under a microscope for weeks at a time each.

So when I say that core mechanics have been gutted and boiled away, I am speaking from a place of knowledge, not hyperbole. And certainly not hypocriticy...

WR3ND is 100% correct. The game has been gift wrapped in bubble wrap with safety tape that can't be cut with 5GW laser.

 

[jasonbarron]

Hypocrisy? I think you're looking at the world through your own filter. I don't see searching through a pile of tomato's for an apple as a challenge. I see it as a nuisance.

Grinding isn't a challenge. Exploration isn't a challenge. Learning mechanics is a challenge. And the mechanics should be ubiquitous, not hiding under a rock near Beagle Point.

To be clear, I've spent the lion's share of my time in Elite figuring out the mechanics of every aspect of the game. From the BGS, to the astrphysicsl basis of the Stellar Forge, to the shield and hull mechanics of rails vs PAs. There is hardly a stone inside ED's black box that I haven't examined under a microscope for weeks at a time each.

I've shelved my HOTAS and am currently relearning the game from the ground up with a KB&M, flying FAO all the time; I'm being challenged by everything right now

 

[Riverside]

Hypocrisy? I think you're looking at the world through your own filter. I don't see searching through a pile of tomato's for an apple as a challenge. I see it as a nuisance.

Grinding isn't a challenge. Exploration isn't a challenge. Learning mechanics is a challenge. And the mechanics should be ubiquitous, not hiding under a rock near Beagle Point.

So it shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either.

Makes perfect sense, but you've played the game a lot & you're pretty good at it. What's easy for you isn't the same as for another player. There are challenges in the game that scale well above my abilities & patience, but there are players that revel in those activities. There are aspects of the game I enjoy that others go out of their way to avoid & write hundred page threads complaining about.

Maybe there is no challenge of an appropriate type & difficulty for you currently. I hope you get one, but I think you will need to go & find it. If you want it to come to you you may be waiting a long time

 

[Ziljan]

I've shelved my HOTAS and am currently relearning the game from the ground up with a KB&M, flying FAO all the time; I'm being challenged by everything right now

I've done the same but I find KBM too easy and natural, which is why I'm using a Hotas. Landing a shieldless Sidey on high g planet with FAoff is interesting. But it's a gimmick in many ways too. FAoff isn't really a disadvantage for combat though since the NPC behavior downscales when you use it. Combat actually gets safer, if that were possible. The only challenge is in aiming with fixed weapons that aren't hitscan. That's a decent challenge but also wholly artificial.

- - - Updated - - -

So it shouldn't be easy, but it shouldn't be too hard either.

Makes perfect sense, but you've played the game a lot & you're pretty good at it. What's easy for you isn't the same as for another player. There are challenges in the game that scale well above my abilities & patience, but there are players that revel in those activities. There are aspects of the game I enjoy that others go out of their way to avoid & write hundred page threads complaining about.

Maybe there is no challenge of an appropriate type & difficulty for you currently. I hope you get one, but I think you will need to go & find it. If you want it to come to you you may be waiting a long time

You're missing my point entirely. I'm am saying we've had appropriate challenges in the game for almost every mechanic. But they have been edited out whole cloth. They don't exist anymore. I've turned over every rock in the game, so I know when it exists, not because I've mastered everything and it's easy. Hell no. But because I understand how everything works, so I notice when huge pieces of the skill spectrum are suddenly missing.

 

[Riverside]

You're missing my point entirely.

Nah I think I read you okay.

It's out there. Yes stuff changes, but you are low on motivation because stuff you enjoyed has been changed. Stuff I liked has been changed too so I can empathise, but I haven't given up, I find other stuff to do.

Take a break, play something else, and if it's better that's great. And if it isn't (or is frustrating in a different way) maybe it'll help you to better appreciate what's good about this game rather than focusing on what used to be good & you don't enjoy any more.

 

[StiTch]

Nah I think I read you okay.

It's out there. Yes stuff changes, but you are low on motivation because stuff you enjoyed has been changed. Stuff I liked has been changed too so I can empathise, but I haven't given up, I find other stuff to do.

Take a break, play something else, and if it's better that's great. And if it isn't (or is frustrating in a different way) maybe it'll help you to better appreciate what's good about this game rather than focusing on what used to be good & you don't enjoy any more.

So where is this challenging content you speak of then? Leaving imagination out of it, because that is RP/direction and not challenge.

 

[jasonbarron]

I've done the same but I find KBM too easy and natural, which is why I'm using a Hotas. Landing a shieldless Sidey on high g planet with FAoff is interesting. But it's a gimmick in many ways too. FAoff isn't really a disadvantage for combat though since the NPC behavior downscales when you use it. Combat actually gets safer, if that were possible. The only challenge is in aiming with fixed weapons that aren't hitscan. That's a decent challenge but also wholly artificial.

The only challenge left in the game for me now is PvP, so I'm trying to get away from my old playstyle and develop a new set of skills. Up till now I've strictly been using FAO just to assist swinging about. I don't ever play games that utilize the keyboard for action movements, so it feels very unnatural to me; my fingers are inept and clumsy at trying to input commands to control my thrust, for instance. Basically, it feels like I'm learning to play a new game. With a bucket over my head

 

[Riverside]

So where is this challenging content you speak of then? Leaving imagination out of it, because that is RP/direction and not challenge.

I'm not going to solve your problem for you buddy, you're going to have to find that for yourself. Or not I guess, either way is okay by me

I've played Elite in one form or another since I was a kid, there's been times when I've played other games or just done other (RL) stuff, but one common theme is that I've never left my imagination out of it. I don't roleplay any further than just being me, generally trying to have some fun, stay out of trouble & occasionally failing. I build models, I do trackdays & go for drives, I help a friend who races, I fly a spaceship.

Only you can know what works for you, I'm not going to list a bunch of stuff for you to just go 'nah' to. Use your imagination.

 

[StiTch]

I'm not going to solve your problem for you buddy, you're going to have to find that for yourself. Or not I guess, either way is okay by me

In other words, you don't know.

As above, imagination and RP do not constitute challenging content. Direction, yes. Motivation, yes. But holding a trigger and watching things go "boom" is exactly what it says on the tin, whether you're a cardboard box in space or Thargoid Overlord Kevin himself.

Point stands that despite your earlier assertion, PvP is currently the only "challenging content" for combat fighters, making it far from meaningless. But as will be put forward by a great deal of players...PvP is not everyone's cuppa.

 

[Nerwan]

The only challenge left in the game for me now is PvP, so I'm trying to get away from my old playstyle and develop a new set of skills. Up till now I've strictly been using FAO just to assist swinging about. I don't ever play games that utilize the keyboard for action movements, so it feels very unnatural to me; my fingers are inept and clumsy at trying to input commands to control my thrust, for instance. Basically, it feels like I'm learning to play a new game. With a bucket over my head

Out of interest how come you're switching to K+M ? I love my Hotas and I'm pretty accurate in PVP with rail shots etc but I do think that mouse users are perhaps better at aiming with FA off. I have to toggle FA on/off while I aim fixed weapons in order to be accurate with the Hotas.

 

[Spacecat]

The only challenge left in the game for me now is PvP, so I'm trying to get away from my old playstyle and develop a new set of skills. Up till now I've strictly been using FAO just to assist swinging about. I don't ever play games that utilize the keyboard for action movements, so it feels very unnatural to me; my fingers are inept and clumsy at trying to input commands to control my thrust, for instance. Basically, it feels like I'm learning to play a new game. With a bucket over my head

Are you using the FPS style control scheme? Let me know how that works out.

 

[jasonbarron]

Out of interest how come you're switching to K+M ? I love my Hotas and I'm pretty accurate in PVP with rail shots etc but I do think that mouse users are perhaps better at aiming with FA off. I have to toggle FA on/off while I aim fixed weapons in order to be accurate with the Hotas.

I've been engaging heavily in PvP for about three months, maybe a bit longer, and I'm noticing that the pilots who beat me are the one's are using that set up, and flying mostly with FAO which I'm just not proficient at. They are harder to hit for me, and their aim is more precise than my own. For me it's a new direction I can afford to go as I'm a billionaire whose tapped just about everything the PvE game has to offer; simply put, I can afford to pull a Billy Madison and go back to do school over. Maybe it will pay off, and maybe it won't. But I have a high degree of commitment to learning, even to the point where I'm willing to start over from scratch.

@Spacecat, I'm just using the keyboard and a junky mouse at present, but I've ordered a new mouse with more buttons and a Orbweaver keypad to map the controls over to. Should have that by next weekend

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Disclaimer: The following was a bit of a rant somewhat brought on by "space madness" while on my way to the Skull and Crossbones Nebula. I meant what I said, but could have been more tactful in expressing my opinions and frustration. Please read with a grain or two of salt or sugar as you might prefer.

...

I haven't lost a ship nor SRV in over a year of actively playing this game. This includes ranking up an Engineer to tier 5 right after 2.1 came out in one day and getting a tier 5 FSD mod on my Vulture exploration ship, "cheating" NPCs and all, just so I could participate in the Crab Nebula Expedition of 3302.

I'm tired of all the whining; I'm tired of the excuses; I'm tired of the incompetence. There is no worthy challenge in this game beyond intentionally compromising myself for the sport of it. There is nothing to fight for beyond my own selfishness, and there is no greater good. All ends are dead ends and unworthy exploits.

This game is damn easy and a cakewalk to all but the newest players or those who refuse to play the game in an effective way.

I'm throwing down the gauntlet and challenging FD to challenge me and anyone else in my position.

Cut down a forest with a herring, and get back to me.