To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?

[physical0]

It's clear that not all players see the attraction of an Open PvE game mode that some other players do....

.... as exemplified in this statement. Multi-player content exists in-game that does not require players to shoot at each other.

The difference would be that players would be able to play among other players and those other players could not engage them in PvP - which is quite a significant difference from both Solo and the multi-player game modes.

Players would still be doing the same stuff - as the stuff does not require PvP.

I'm having a hard time following your comment. Could you elaborate?
How would players be able to play among other players? As discussed in the segments of my post that you didn't quote, there aren't really any group activities that players could participate in that involve more than one player. The bulk of the game revolves around individual pilots floating around in space all by their lonesome. Existing "group" activities are played solo, and the fact that they are group missions is exploited to maximize rewards via collaboration, not by completing missions using cooperation.
Gameplay would be identical in a "PVE Only Open" vs "Solo". As there would be no difference in gameplay, the inclusion of the game mode would not offer anything new.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm having a hard time following your comment. Could you elaborate?
How would players be able to play among other players? As discussed in the segments of my post that you didn't quote, there aren't really any group activities that players could participate in that involve more than one player.

Players would be able to play among other players in the same way that the existing multi-player modes allow them to - except there'd be no PvP.

Activities for wings and squads exist, as does multi-crew - none of them require PvP. Playing among other players can be rewarding in and of itself. Not everyone goes AFK to complete wing missions without actually playing the game - that some use them that way is not unexpected, however it's not the only way to play.

The bulk of the game revolves around individual pilots floating around in space all by their lonesome. Existing "group" activities are played solo, and the fact that they are group missions is exploited to maximize rewards via collaboration, not by completing missions using cooperation.

Wing trade vouchers, wing bounties and wing mission rewards all specifically reward multi-player.

Gameplay would be identical in a "PVE Only Open" vs "Solo". As there would be no difference in gameplay, the inclusion of the game mode would not offer anything new.

It would offer the ability to play among other players in a PvP-free environment - which Solo does not do.

 

[physical0]

Players would be able to play among other players in the same way that the existing multi-player modes allow them to - except there'd be no PvP.

Activities for wings and squads exist, as does multi-crew - none of them require PvP. Playing among other players can be rewarding in and of itself. Not everyone goes AFK to complete wing missions without actually playing the game - that some use them that way is not unexpected, however it's not the only way to play.

Wing trade vouchers, wing bounties and wing mission rewards all specifically reward multi-player.

It would offer the ability to play among other players in a PvP-free environment - which Solo does not do.

Offering the ability isn't going to do much good, because playing among other players offers no meaningful benefit in any gameplay other than PVP.

Squads already have private available for their group activities, and engaging in group activities within your squad and some other rando hanging around doesn't alter gameplay in a meaningful way. You may be able to recruit that rando, but his existence is a statistical improbability and shouldn't be counted on. You're better off stapling a flyer to a telephone pole outside your house for squad recruits.
Multicrew offers little to no useful gameplay. I'm gonna rant on multicrew for a moment: Srsly, how useless of a game mode can this be? You're gonna have your buddy fly the fighter? Why not just have him fly his own sidewinder? He's gonna bring just as much firepower.. Ooh, he can fire the turret, and do a worse job than the computer. Or, he can just sit there minding his one pip. Multicrew was waste of development time... The only people who benefit from it are multiboxers letting their alts sit idle in the passenger seat.

Wing trade vouchers are poorly realized. You need two players to be at the same station at the same time. If you're doing trading, then for this to be the case, you're gonna spend more time waiting on your fellow player than you are actually playing the game. So much of wings is sitting around waiting for the other guy to arrive, because space is so dang big and we need to stare at the void to make sure you realize how silly big space actually is. Wing bounties are great... it's awesome that further trivializing trivial content can offer a greater rewards. Wing missions... we went over this and I don't feel like I should need to repeat myself. Wing trade missions work in theory, the more players participating, the faster the mission completes, the less money spent on commodities, but, trade isn't really a group activity. You aren't playing together. You're separately working on a shared goal. Completing the mission solo is functionally identical to completing it as a group, save for the reward portion. Multiplayer gameplay needs to be judged by the actual gameplay, not the fact that you get better rewards for pretending to do it together. There is the uncommon soul who will play out a combat wing mission as intended, but most often they are cheesed by killing low effort pirates at the res. We can't measure the game by the rarities when there is a more common denominator.

For multiplayer to be meaningful, there would need to be a means to unite players who are interested in similar activities and are of similar skill level, otherwise you just have two people doing two different things in the same general area. Because the skill levels of players can vary so greatly, and there is no sorting mechanisms available, just meeting another pilot out there isn't going to be sufficient. The odds of players running into each other is slim as is. The odds of players looking for the same sort of gameplay is slimmer. And, the odds that their skill levels will be in a place where that gameplay is fun and engaging for everyone is slimmer still.

Yes, the things you've outlined might be true in a perfect world if the game were well implemented. But, we exist in this world, with this implementation. And, simply adding a "No PVP" flag would not offer any meaningful difference to gameplay, other than create whiners who are complaining they can't shoot other players, and creative griefers who find ways around those restrictions.
To promote good multiplayer PVE, the game would require significantly more thought than just this. And, based on how ad nauseum these discussions have gone and how little the people who actually develop the game care about what is posted here, it's not a conversation worth having, unless you enjoy the clicky clack of your own keyboard.

 

[SergMx]

Offering the ability isn't going to do much good, because playing among other players offers no meaningful benefit in any gameplay other than PVP.

Squads already have private available for their group activities, and engaging in group activities within your squad and some other rando hanging around doesn't alter gameplay in a meaningful way. You may be able to recruit that rando, but his existence is a statistical improbability and shouldn't be counted on. You're better off stapling a flyer to a telephone pole outside your house for squad recruits.
Multicrew offers little to no useful gameplay. I'm gonna rant on multicrew for a moment: Srsly, how useless of a game mode can this be? You're gonna have your buddy fly the fighter? Why not just have him fly his own sidewinder? He's gonna bring just as much firepower.. Ooh, he can fire the turret, and do a worse job than the computer. Or, he can just sit there minding his one pip. Multicrew was waste of development time... The only people who benefit from it are multiboxers letting their alts sit idle in the passenger seat.

Wing trade vouchers are poorly realized. You need two players to be at the same station at the same time. If you're doing trading, then for this to be the case, you're gonna spend more time waiting on your fellow player than you are actually playing the game. So much of wings is sitting around waiting for the other guy to arrive, because space is so dang big and we need to stare at the void to make sure you realize how silly big space actually is. Wing bounties are great... it's awesome that further trivializing trivial content can offer a greater rewards. Wing missions... we went over this and I don't feel like I should need to repeat myself. Wing trade missions work in theory, the more players participating, the faster the mission completes, the less money spent on commodities, but, trade isn't really a group activity. You aren't playing together. You're separately working on a shared goal. Completing the mission solo is functionally identical to completing it as a group, save for the reward portion. Multiplayer gameplay needs to be judged by the actual gameplay, not the fact that you get better rewards for pretending to do it together. There is the uncommon soul who will play out a combat wing mission as intended, but most often they are cheesed by killing low effort pirates at the res. We can't measure the game by the rarities when there is a more common denominator.

For multiplayer to be meaningful, there would need to be a means to unite players who are interested in similar activities and are of similar skill level, otherwise you just have two people doing two different things in the same general area. Because the skill levels of players can vary so greatly, and there is no sorting mechanisms available, just meeting another pilot out there isn't going to be sufficient. The odds of players running into each other is slim as is. The odds of players looking for the same sort of gameplay is slimmer. And, the odds that their skill levels will be in a place where that gameplay is fun and engaging for everyone is slimmer still.

Yes, the things you've outlined might be true in a perfect world if the game were well implemented. But, we exist in this world, with this implementation. And, simply adding a "No PVP" flag would not offer any meaningful difference to gameplay, other than create whiners who are complaining they can't shoot other players, and creative griefers who find ways around those restrictions.
To promote good multiplayer PVE, the game would require significantly more thought than just this. And, based on how ad nauseum these discussions have gone and how little the people who actually develop the game care about what is posted here, it's not a conversation worth having, unless you enjoy the clicky clack of your own keyboard.

I don't think you've ever played on a multi crew. I often play on a team with other random people when I'm in Pleiades.
People on the other side of the galaxy are happy to join me. They don't have to assemble a special ship and fly for a week to a point. They don't give up their research and they are comfortable and enjoy it.
And unlike CG, the Gankers don't interfere with us.

And in general, I repeat, even if the hunker cool but he is one it is not a problem for me. I can stand up to anyone.
But the problem for me in organizyh wings, if I'm not on the courier is difficult for me to even just fly away from 4 gankers and they are usually organized and I play alone and at a convenient time for me.

 

[physical0]

I don't think you've ever played on a team. I often play on a team with other random people when I'm in Pleiades.
People on the other side of the galaxy are happy to join me. They don't have to assemble a special ship and fly for a week to a point. They don't give up their research and they are comfortable and enjoy it.
And unlike CG, the Gankers don't interfere with us.

I gave multicrew an honest attempt. I brought my trusty copilot along (10yrs old) and let him tell me what he thought. I also sat beside him in his ship. My opinions are based on that experience. We've revisited it a couple times over the time from him getting blown up constantly to the point where he can manually dock his Anaconda he bought with the money he made himself. I feel like that is as fair an evaluation as I can offer. I have no desire to sit on my hands while I watch a total stranger play, nor would I think a stranger would find it enjoyable to watch me play.
Multicrew offers the opportunity of being a trivial sidekick to another player's experience, not a real cooperative experience. Even for the best sort of sidekicks, it's not as fun as playing in a wing.

The point to be made is that assembling a special ship just to play with another player, or having to fly for a week half way across the galaxy is the barrier to PVE multiplayer gameplay. Being safe from PVP gankers isn't gonna change that fact.

Playing in a wing is fun, but there isn't any good reason to do it. There's better mission payouts, but the gameplay is not the same as the reward and I'm more concerned about the gameplay. Playing in a wing requires that preparation of having the right kind of ship for the job, and to be in the same neighborhood as your friends. Most game activities are no different playing in a wing as they would be had you been doing it solo and those that are different are usually made significantly easier to the point of trivializing the game.

The game needs better ways to get players interested in similar activities, of similar skill levels to meet each other. Without that, there isn't gonna be any use in encouraging people to play in a PVE open, because it will be equivalent to playing in solo. There needs to be better ways for a group to engage in activities that aren't combat. There needs to be combat that matches the players expectation of difficulty and is more than pot shotting small time thugs. There needs to be more things to do than just sit around and wait and stare at a blank screen.

 

[SergMx]

I gave multicrew an honest attempt. I brought my trusty copilot along (10yrs old) and let him tell me what he thought. I also sat beside him in his ship. My opinions are based on that experience. We've revisited it a couple times over the time from him getting blown up constantly to the point where he can manually dock his Anaconda he bought with the money he made himself. I feel like that is as fair an evaluation as I can offer. I have no desire to sit on my hands while I watch a total stranger play, nor would I think a stranger would find it enjoyable to watch me play.
Multicrew offers the opportunity of being a trivial sidekick to another player's experience, not a real cooperative experience. Even for the best sort of sidekicks, it's not as fun as playing in a wing.

The point to be made is that assembling a special ship just to play with another player, or having to fly for a week half way across the galaxy is the barrier to PVE multiplayer gameplay. Being safe from PVP gankers isn't gonna change that fact.

Playing in a wing is fun, but there isn't any good reason to do it. There's better mission payouts, but the gameplay is not the same as the reward and I'm more concerned about the gameplay. Playing in a wing requires that preparation of having the right kind of ship for the job, and to be in the same neighborhood as your friends. Most game activities are no different playing in a wing as they would be had you been doing it solo and those that are different are usually made significantly easier to the point of trivializing the game.

The game needs better ways to get players interested in similar activities, of similar skill levels to meet each other. Without that, there isn't gonna be any use in encouraging people to play in a PVE open, because it will be equivalent to playing in solo. There needs to be better ways for a group to engage in activities that aren't combat. There needs to be combat that matches the players expectation of difficulty and is more than pot shotting small time thugs. There needs to be more things to do than just sit around and wait and stare at a blank screen.

I don't agree with you. People are different, different time zones, different playing conditions, etc.
You have to count on occasional meetings for a few hours and no more.
After all, remember the classic book Dark Wheel.
The hero is a loner in space, other people are around but he is a loner.

 

[physical0]

I don't agree with you. People are different, different time zones, different playing conditions, etc.
You have to count on occasional meetings for a few hours and no more.
After all, remember the classic book Dark Wheel.
The hero is a loner in space, other people are around but he is a loner.

It's OK to disagree. Time zones, playing conditions, etc are all barriers for group PVE play that aren't addressed by making a PVE Open.

Let me ask you this: If playing the sidekick role of a multi-crew ship was the whole game, would you want to play it? In this hypothetical situation, let's ignore EVERYTHING else. We're talking a game where you sit in the chair beside the captain. You get to fire the turret, you get to take the fighter out, you get to move that one pip back and forth. Is that a game that you'd have fun playing? Would you get excited about logging in and sitting in that chair? Would you keep coming back to play?

I'm gonna assume the answer is no. Because it doesn't sound like a fun game. It was bad game design to release the feature like that. It oozed with possibility and all that possibility was squandered when it was dropped immediately after release. Playing the sidekick isn't as fun as playing the hero, especially when you've been relegated to such a bit part. There's plenty of fun stuff you could be doing instead of sitting on your hands watching some other guy play the game while you collect trivial rewards based on their gameplay.

I think people often confuse the rewards with gameplay. A good reward doesn't make for good gameplay. A great reward doesn't make bad gameplay good. The game still needs to be fun. Sure, there's lotsa people who get super jazzed when they get their rewards and they love their rewards and they pull the lever and get that reward and they pull it again and again and no matter how boring repeatedly pulling a lever gets, they'll do it for the reward. But, good game design shouldn't focus on that audience, because that audience doesn't care about good game design. The game could be twice as bad and they'd still love it if they believed the reward was good. If the game was better, they'd still have fun because there's a still a reward.

I could imagine a game where multi-crew could be fun, but it would require a whole lot more than this game has to offer right now. It would require so much that it would be impossible for a single player to manage a ship by themselves. It could be pretty fun. But, it would require two or more people being online at the same time, of similar skill levels, interested in the same goal. Players don't necessarily need to be doing the same thing, but their contribution to the goal should be somewhat equivalent.

These common issues of multiplayer gameplay are not fixed by simply creating a PVE open.
In this game, multiplayer is more of a burden that the game compromises for, instead of being enriched by it. The game is not better for including it. It could have been (I wish it would have been), but it's not.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Offering the ability isn't going to do much good, because playing among other players offers no meaningful benefit in any gameplay other than PVP.

Squads already have private available for their group activities, and engaging in group activities within your squad and some other rando hanging around doesn't alter gameplay in a meaningful way. You may be able to recruit that rando, but his existence is a statistical improbability and shouldn't be counted on. You're better off stapling a flyer to a telephone pole outside your house for squad recruits.
Multicrew offers little to no useful gameplay. I'm gonna rant on multicrew for a moment: Srsly, how useless of a game mode can this be? You're gonna have your buddy fly the fighter? Why not just have him fly his own sidewinder? He's gonna bring just as much firepower.. Ooh, he can fire the turret, and do a worse job than the computer. Or, he can just sit there minding his one pip. Multicrew was waste of development time... The only people who benefit from it are multiboxers letting their alts sit idle in the passenger seat.

Wing trade vouchers are poorly realized. You need two players to be at the same station at the same time. If you're doing trading, then for this to be the case, you're gonna spend more time waiting on your fellow player than you are actually playing the game. So much of wings is sitting around waiting for the other guy to arrive, because space is so dang big and we need to stare at the void to make sure you realize how silly big space actually is. Wing bounties are great... it's awesome that further trivializing trivial content can offer a greater rewards. Wing missions... we went over this and I don't feel like I should need to repeat myself. Wing trade missions work in theory, the more players participating, the faster the mission completes, the less money spent on commodities, but, trade isn't really a group activity. You aren't playing together. You're separately working on a shared goal. Completing the mission solo is functionally identical to completing it as a group, save for the reward portion. Multiplayer gameplay needs to be judged by the actual gameplay, not the fact that you get better rewards for pretending to do it together. There is the uncommon soul who will play out a combat wing mission as intended, but most often they are cheesed by killing low effort pirates at the res. We can't measure the game by the rarities when there is a more common denominator.

For multiplayer to be meaningful, there would need to be a means to unite players who are interested in similar activities and are of similar skill level, otherwise you just have two people doing two different things in the same general area. Because the skill levels of players can vary so greatly, and there is no sorting mechanisms available, just meeting another pilot out there isn't going to be sufficient. The odds of players running into each other is slim as is. The odds of players looking for the same sort of gameplay is slimmer. And, the odds that their skill levels will be in a place where that gameplay is fun and engaging for everyone is slimmer still.

Yes, the things you've outlined might be true in a perfect world if the game were well implemented. But, we exist in this world, with this implementation. And, simply adding a "No PVP" flag would not offer any meaningful difference to gameplay, other than create whiners who are complaining they can't shoot other players, and creative griefers who find ways around those restrictions.
To promote good multiplayer PVE, the game would require significantly more thought than just this. And, based on how ad nauseum these discussions have gone and how little the people who actually develop the game care about what is posted here, it's not a conversation worth having, unless you enjoy the clicky clack of your own keyboard.

Whether or not the multi-player game content is considered satisfactory (by some players) is not relevant when considering the benefits (to some players) of an Open-PvE game mode - it's a conflation.

 

[physical0]

Whether or not the multi-player game content is considered satisfactory is not relevant when considering the benefits (to some players) of an Open-PvE game mode - it's a conflation.

It's a lipstick on a pig sorta deal, I think...

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's a lipstick on a pig sorta deal, I think...

Opinions, quite naturally, vary.

 

[physical0]

Opinions, quite naturally, vary.

Yes, we all have different opinions. I wouldn't bother typing mine out if it wasn't somehow distinct from other opinions. What is the purpose of pointing such things out?

 

[SergMx]

It's OK to disagree. Time zones, playing conditions, etc are all barriers for group PVE play that aren't addressed by making a PVE Open.

Let me ask you this: If playing the sidekick role of a multi-crew ship was the whole game, would you want to play it? In this hypothetical situation, let's ignore EVERYTHING else. We're talking a game where you sit in the chair beside the captain. You get to fire the turret, you get to take the fighter out, you get to move that one pip back and forth. Is that a game that you'd have fun playing? Would you get excited about logging in and sitting in that chair? Would you keep coming back to play?

I'm gonna assume the answer is no. Because it doesn't sound like a fun game. It was bad game design to release the feature like that. It oozed with possibility and all that possibility was squandered when it was dropped immediately after release. Playing the sidekick isn't as fun as playing the hero, especially when you've been relegated to such a bit part. There's plenty of fun stuff you could be doing instead of sitting on your hands watching some other guy play the game while you collect trivial rewards based on their gameplay.

I think people often confuse the rewards with gameplay. A good reward doesn't make for good gameplay. A great reward doesn't make bad gameplay good. The game still needs to be fun. Sure, there's lotsa people who get super jazzed when they get their rewards and they love their rewards and they pull the lever and get that reward and they pull it again and again and no matter how boring repeatedly pulling a lever gets, they'll do it for the reward. But, good game design shouldn't focus on that audience, because that audience doesn't care about good game design. The game could be twice as bad and they'd still love it if they believed the reward was good. If the game was better, they'd still have fun because there's a still a reward.

I could imagine a game where multi-crew could be fun, but it would require a whole lot more than this game has to offer right now. It would require so much that it would be impossible for a single player to manage a ship by themselves. It could be pretty fun. But, it would require two or more people being online at the same time, of similar skill levels, interested in the same goal. Players don't necessarily need to be doing the same thing, but their contribution to the goal should be somewhat equivalent.

These common issues of multiplayer gameplay are not fixed by simply creating a PVE open.
In this game, multiplayer is more of a burden that the game compromises for, instead of being enriched by it. The game is not better for including it. It could have been (I wish it would have been), but it's not.

If the game had cooperative PvE, I as a PC player (consoles seem to have closed for the new one) would always play open game EVERYWHERE.
I didn't need to change mode to open game and give up many of my ships and classes.
Now in open game I am limited.
And when there will be such a mode there will be a greater opportunity to interact with other random players.
That is, I meet people and can agree with them about something, rather than as now, I have to agree with someone somewhere else, and then come into the game together.

In the end let them do this mode and immediately see how many people in what mode are playing and it will not just words.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yes, we all have different opinions. I wouldn't bother typing mine out if it wasn't somehow distinct from other opinions. What is the purpose of pointing such things out?

It's a different way of saying that the opinion is not shared by the respondent.

 

[physical0]

It's a different way of saying that the opinion is not shared by the respondent.

I see...

 

[Jack Winter]

I have no doubt that some that do CGs in open now would do them in an open PvE mode, I think it's equally likely that some solo players would do them in open PvE. In the end it's cool to see other player ships, and it's less cool to be killed while hauling cargo.

I mean playing in open means that you consent to being killed by other players. And I think this is what some players probably object to..

I can only agree with wanting better multiplayer mechanics and more to do both PvP and PvE..

But I think the whole discussion is mostly academic as FDev will do as they please...

 

[SergMx]

I mean playing in open means that you consent to being killed by other players. And I think this is what some players probably object to..

That's right. But usually in the game there's a chance, maybe they'll kill you and maybe they won't. There is no chance here. In the current reality with ganker wings you can't do CG in the open game.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

...

1. A proper client-server architecture with server authoritative processing of all instance and game state....

And then what? client-server isn't the holy grail of MP. ED's architecture is not bad for its purpose. You always have jank and it comes with the diversity and quality of the multitude of clients that connect to the network. No server-client setup can fix bad connections and packets going around the world or users having bad hardware setups.

 

[Ettanin]

And then what? client-server isn't the holy grail of MP. ED's architecture is not bad for its purpose. You always have jank and it comes with the diversity and quality of the multitude of clients that connect to the network. No server-client setup can fix bad connections and packets going around the world or users having bad hardware setups.

In times where IPv4 addresses are a scarcity and ISPs can't be bothered to introduce IPv6, Peer to Peer is prone to failure frequently. While FDev can use TURN servers to get around DSLite/CGNAT, they use those sparingly. AWS instances are expensive.

TURN will not be used to create new instances. TURN will only be used to keep established instances up if the last directly reachable peer leaves, to connect wing members together and to connect multi-crew members together. If you are in an empty instance and have CGNAT/DSLite or not forwarded ports, it will likely stay empty.

 

[Crystal Monopole]

No server-client setup can fix bad connections and packets going around the world or users having bad hardware setups.

Pretty much depends on location and proximity to a tier 1 node. Such a strategically placed server could indeed get around many of the pitfalls when two or more players try to stand up a point-to-point session over consumer internet. Ultimately I don't care. If my connection to the server is great and Little Jimmy's isn't, well sucks to be him. Ok, I'm not that heartless but the extent of my sympathy doesn't extend to not playing because LJ is in the Internet Ghetto.

To be a bit less flippant I'm a big fan of large group content. The problem with the point-to-point-to-point, etc. net code that this game has been graced with is that it depends on the weakest link. It degrades very heavily once you move past four players especially if they're on opposite sides of the globe. The worst part about this whole mess is that in whole or in part the NPC AI is distributed across all human participants' machines.

Regardless the question posed by the OP was: What would it take... ? I answered with my set of conditions. If you're perfectly happy with the netcode performance that's your business. I feel that it is not fit for purpose and will stick to Solo unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Susanna]

Yes...

In the event that I return to playing ED