To Solo Play Players: If You Could Disable PVP, Would You Play in Open Play Mode Instead?

My concern is that FD doesn't have any good choice of difficulty, so I expect they just shove in more bulletsponge. Open powerplay has its merits, but i wouldn't know how to handle the current reward structure in that.
Design possibilities exist, I've explored a few as examples here:




Others include making allocations a thing of the past and instead make cargo mission specific- so a mission (as per usual) prices in at least some action. Stack a load and you get opposition stacked too. Its here where co-op comes in, if the NPCs are hard enough.
 
It's in this version of the game as it was in the previous games in the series, i.e. combat rank is more of a long service award rather than any measure of skill.

Plus the fact that three of the five Elite ranks that can be earned in-game don't require the player to fire a shot in combat - so players can play the game without ever engaging in combat.
Combat rank in ED is more like a punishment for playing the game. All it did for me is pitting me against more tedious NPC. But hey, why don't you try this crappy loot chase to over come the bullet sponge. I'm not lying - it'd take me now around double the time to kill enemy AI - and that's stuff I don't want to play with anymore.
 
Really interesting conversation, thanks for raising this one. I'll throw in my two cents.

I can't see a version of Open where PvP can be toggled off, even if there are many who would like to play that way. IMO, it would go against the spirit of Elite and certainly against the idea of "Dangerous". It's also not easily explained through in-game lore.

However, I do sympathise with those who would like to encounter and interact with other players during their sessions without getting killed. Obviously there are private groups for that, but it's understandably not quite same since you could only meet people you already know.

Overall, I think the solution to this would be better coming from adjustments to the crime and punishment system to make sure there are meaningful risks/deterrents in place for non-consensual PvP encounters rather than from a binary PvP on/off toggle.
A first step could be also if FD would remove player limits from private groups (PG).
It would not have a negative affect on open because PG players already do not play it. But it would have a positive effect on PG players because they would be able to play together in one group.

Also agree with previous posts that "dangerous" does not have to mean forced pvp. Also what is dangerous for a billionaire ganker who attacks players who can't defend themselves against his ship and even if the ganker gets destroyed, he can replace the ship in seconds and continue? Also being marked as a criminal has no real effect because being a billionaire you can just "reset" your crime record, or wait some time for the law enforcement to forget that you murdered people in the system "a few days ago".

Edit:
I'm also positively surprised that a dev joined this very sensitive discussion. Must have felt like entering a bear pit in underwear.
 
Answering the OP's question:

I play about 5% of the time in Open. I don't particularly enjoy that people are willing to set their own rules and ignore ethics or laws, whether in game or in reality. I play games to have more fun than in reality so, as long as there is a semi loud/visible group ruining the fun for me in open I mostly won't play there. Could PVP blocking be efficient enough to stop "them"? Maybe, but I'm fine in PG/Solo so I won't fight very hard for this.

But also there are things that are broken in Elite in Open and they are some of the reasons I mainly play in Solo/PG (and forget to go to Open because I feel I have to play in PG for the below reasons).
  • Guardian blueprint sites appears tailored for single player, since only one player can scan and if you are in Open with several players at the same site wanting the scan it turns messy. Without the blueprints, the Thargoid part of the game is from my limited understanding unplayable.
  • I spent a LOT of gameplay hours to get access to Shinrarta Dezhra before Borann was a thing. Having murderers on the doorstep in Open all/some of the time is ridiculous. A real pilots federation would setup a defense force to shoot down the murderers and destroy their escape capsules (saves). I want to be able to at least get to jump away from SD in my non-PVP but very role-specific ship. It's sort of the point of SD to be able to build any type of ship.
  • Having CG:s swarming with murderers is just off-putting from participating in Open. I like CG:s but it doesn't feel like Community if I'm forced to play in PG/Solo, though the ever present fleet carriers and system chat brings a lot of community feeling.
  • Instancing for large groups of people is really just like random (private) groups, not really Open, so any place where there would be lots of commanders gets a bit of a dampener on it for me.
  • I participated in Distant Worlds 2 and involuntarily in Distant Ganks (2?) as a non-consensual victim. Obviously it was a very, very bad idea to play in Open at the leg destinations. I had also planned to let random people multi-crew in my ship for the sceneries, but after it was discovered that people were joining just to be able to sabotage by ejecting all the heatsinks for example, I dropped that intended game play as well. Not gonna say I lost my interest in DW2 over just this, but I think it played a pretty big part.
  • Any most popular activity at one time in the game attracts the murderous players. They are basically spoiling the fun of any major thing that FDev or player groups set up.

Also, as a non-consensual victim, I'm appalled that the fine/bounty for the killer is less than my rebuy most of the time. The bounty should be higher and should repay the non-consensual victim's rebuy immediately or at least once the murderer is forced to pay. I could be more accepting of PVP if economically compensated, though much playtime could still be in vain if exploring, mining etc. Consensual PVP don't need to have bounties unless for immersion reasons. I might even participate in consensual PVP if things were changed.
 
I'm 61 and love every aspect of pvp including ganking and SPEAR.
Good for you. (Although, I don't know what SPEAR is...LOL)

PvP can be fun, but Gankers do not want PvP. If they did, then allowing people to turn off PvP wouldn't affect them, because they would all have PvP turned on and would be enjoying fighting each other.
 
I'm 65, if that matters. The days when I was fascinated by games like Quake are long gone. Not that I feel like I've grown up, but some people just change over the years.

Nowadays I love challenging single player content, something I really miss in ED. Preferably turn-based, because only there is real depth and fodder for the brain. I know that's pretty much impossible in an MMO and in real time. So for me that still leaves chess or excellent games like Pathfinder or the brand new Wartales. Another thing I've noticed over the years: the more opulent the graphics, the shallower the gameplay.

Honestly, there's no reason Elite couldn't offer you that sort of gameplay.

Powerplay absolutely SHOULD involve high-level strategy of the same sort as Civilization or Chess. Unfortunately, it doesn't; instead it's basically just figuring out the mathematically ideal place to expand.

That's a big direction I'd like to see Powerplay expand.
 
Overall, I think the solution to this would be better coming from adjustments to the crime and punishment system to make sure there are meaningful risks/deterrents in place for non-consensual PvP encounters rather than from a binary PvP on/off toggle.
Respectfully, I don't think you really understand the mindset of people who want a PvE mode. This wouldn't make any difference to my personal choice to stay out of Open, and I doubt it will change anyone else's mind either.

Reasons
I will never initiate combat against another player. I am happy to be bound to this statement by gameplay mode. I don't want other players that have visibility of me to have any options to break that either.

Whatever punishment you devise, there will always be some players to whom it is not a punishment; fines have no impact on the rich, kill-on-sight orders don't affect people who never want to dock with this faction, even a "literally anyone in the galaxy will impound your ship for 7 days" means nothing to a person with 14 kitted out PK ships. You could put a PvP bounty on their head that never diminishes and is an actual meaningful amount to other players, but they'd still just have another ship ready to hop into.

ED is stuffed with insurance mechanisms to ensure that if a player suffers a loss or even commits to a wetwork contract without thinking about consequences, it doesn't reset them to day 1 or have lasting impact - and those mechanisms work for gankers as well as peaceful players. If you did find a punishment that was an actual deterrent, it would become something that gankers would try to bait innocent players into. Wait for someone to be in combat with an NPC and fly through their line of fire. Now the other player took the first shot, is PvP enabled, and is the one who gets punished by the local police for starting the fight.

Nothing short of a fully restricted PvE mode could tempt me into Open. I strongly suspect that the big majority of PvE players feel the same. This feels like something you could put weeks of dev time into and discover only a hundred players ever changed their behaviour, and would I urge to you at least invest in a community poll before committing to it.

You do not of course, have to care at all. It's your game, you don't have to have a PvE Open mode. But if you are interested in getting solo players into Open; do please try to think about it from their perspective, and deliver a system that they want to see, rather than one that they'll continue to ignore.
 
I'm 65, if that matters. The days when I was fascinated by games like Quake are long gone. Not that I feel like I've grown up, but some people just change over the years.

Nowadays I love challenging single player content, something I really miss in ED. Preferably turn-based, because only there is real depth and fodder for the brain. I know that's pretty much impossible in an MMO and in real time. So for me that still leaves chess or excellent games like Pathfinder or the brand new Wartales. Another thing I've noticed over the years: the more opulent the graphics, the shallower the gameplay.
Off topic here, but if you are into challenging Singleplayer checkout Starsector, space game made by an indie with alot of care, passion and love. Just pm me if you want more info :D
 
Respectfully, I don't think you really understand the mindset of people who want a PvE mode. This wouldn't make any difference to my personal choice to stay out of Open, and I doubt it will change anyone else's mind either.

Reasons
I will never initiate combat against another player. I am happy to be bound to this statement by gameplay mode. I don't want other players that have visibility of me to have any options to break that either.

Whatever punishment you devise, there will always be some players to whom it is not a punishment; fines have no impact on the rich, kill-on-sight orders don't affect people who never want to dock with this faction, even a "literally anyone in the galaxy will impound your ship for 7 days" means nothing to a person with 14 kitted out PK ships. You could put a PvP bounty on their head that never diminishes and is an actual meaningful amount to other players, but they'd still just have another ship ready to hop into.

ED is stuffed with insurance mechanisms to ensure that if a player suffers a loss or even commits to a wetwork contract without thinking about consequences, it doesn't reset them to day 1 or have lasting impact - and those mechanisms work for gankers as well as peaceful players. If you did find a punishment that was an actual deterrent, it would become something that gankers would try to bait innocent players into. Wait for someone to be in combat with an NPC and fly through their line of fire. Now the other player took the first shot, is PvP enabled, and is the one who gets punished by the local police for starting the fight.

Nothing short of a fully restricted PvE mode could tempt me into Open. I strongly suspect that the big majority of PvE players feel the same. This feels like something you could put weeks of dev time into and discover only a hundred players ever changed their behaviour, and would I urge to you at least invest in a community poll before committing to it.

You do not of course, have to care at all. It's your game, you don't have to have a PvE Open mode. But if you are interested in getting solo players into Open; do please try to think about it from their perspective, and deliver a system that they want to see, rather than one that they'll continue to ignore.
Respectfully I don't think you've considered the mindset of people who currently play in open and enjoy it (not all of whom are gankers). I fully understand and sympathise with people who don't want to PvP but keeping players with diametrically opposed preferences separated is better than putting them together. Two main points:

1) P2P instancing means that players can only ever be in the same space as a finite, quite small, number of peers. If you added PvP toggles and invulnerability it would be possible to be instanced exclusively with people who you can't interact with in the way you desire.

This goes both ways. As a fan of the risks of Open I don't want to be instanced with invulnerable ships I can't interact with, nor do I want a prospective attacker to have to ask my permission before attacking me. This damages my enjoyment and suspension of disbelief. Equally if you're the only PvE toggled player in an instance of salty PvPers who are frustrated at your presence you're unlikely to get much worthwhile co-op.

The best solution is to make sure you get where you want to be: instanced with like-minded players to casually co-op with no risk, while I get where I want to be: where there's risk. Because of capped instancing it's not beneficial to water down either pool.

2) Elite has competitive systems that extend beyond individual fights. The BGS and Powerplay are (against all odds!) enjoyed by thousands of players and present in-game stakes and context for conflict.

As a player who participates in the BGS I'm aware that often players will be working against my faction in solo mode. This knowledge doesn't fill me with joy, but neither does it actively frustrate me because I can't see those players doing it. If people were able to affect the gameworld's stakes right in front of our eyes while we look on unable to defend our assets that would again negatively affect my suspension of disbelief and lead to a lot of angry chat messages.

As to what should (if anything) be done about it, the thing is there are already fairly decent solutions for us to both get what we want. There are many large, well populated PvE groups out there, including Mobius PvE, wherein you're pretty much guaranteed to get the experience you're looking for. I actually think a good solution would be for Fdev to allow PG groups to publicise within the game so that players know they're out there. For me the best solution is to continue to play in open where the frisson of danger, the slow-burn competition and fighting can continue unabated.

In short, this game attracts players with different preferences but can only handle a few of them being together at a time. Putting like-minded players together and keeping diametrically opposed players separate should be the priority.
 
I do agree with your point that punishment alone will never be enough to stop ganking. The only thing that could potentially stop it without breaking the game's rules would be to enforce a narrower power spectrum, giving casual ships a better margin for survival, being more didactic about means of escape, and having a better, faster class of security response that poses a legitimate threat to criminal players.

Really the easiest option with things as they stand is for you to just play in Mobius PG or similar.
 
I do agree with your point that punishment alone will never be enough to stop ganking. The only thing that could potentially stop it without breaking the game's rules would be to enforce a narrower power spectrum, giving casual ships a better margin for survival, being more didactic about means of escape, and having a better, faster class of security response that poses a legitimate threat to criminal players.

Really the easiest option with things as they stand is for you to just play in Mobius PG or similar.
A faster security response is a good idea but it won't work in ED because gankers can combat log to avoid destruction. And even if 5hey are not fast enough, paying the insurance is peanuts and will not hold then off from ganking
 
A faster security response is a good idea but it won't work in ED because gankers can combat log to avoid destruction. And even if 5hey are not fast enough, paying the insurance is peanuts and will not hold then off from ganking
If the objective is to give the attackee a better chance of escaping then it's successful. Yeah, gankers don't generally care about rebuy costs and/or may combat log (just as many pve players do) but that was my whole point. Punishment after the fact is a red herring solution, it's rare that a salty victim will be satisfied with the knowledge that their attacker was lumbered with a mildly inconvenient bounty. The case I was making was to take steps to narrow the power spectrum between these two polar opposites of the playerbase to allow for 'fairer' emergent interactions.

That's kind of a detail though, some players will never accept pvp violence even if it's on numerically fairer terms, and fair enough. A narrower power spectrum would help players who are 'on the edge' between mode choices and unsure which way to jump, but there will be players for whom any amount of conflict is too much - and those players should just be in a private group, tbqh.
 
The thread has completed its trajectory. All these threads go like this:
  1. Either: Persuade Solo players to play in Open. Or: Modify the game to make everyone play in Open.
  2. Diversions into: BGS, PowerPlay, ganking, psychoanalysis, RL analogies, combat logging, accusations of cowardice, P2P networking, Mobius, other MMOs.
  3. Proposal of an Open-PvE mode.
Of course, we can nip back to point 2 at any time if the thread isn't long enough yet.
 
The thread has completed its trajectory. All these threads go like this:
  1. Either: Persuade Solo players to play in Open. Or: Modify the game to make everyone play in Open.
  2. Diversions into: BGS, PowerPlay, ganking, psychoanalysis, RL analogies, combat logging, accusations of cowardice, P2P networking, Mobius, other MMOs.
  3. Proposal of an Open-PvE mode.
Of course, we can nip back to point 2 at any time if the thread isn't long enough yet.
...and I really don't understand why FDEVs don't want to respond to the simple proposal to add the Open PvE mode without taking anything away from what already exists ...everyone would be happy in my opinion
 
...and I really don't understand why FDEVs don't want to respond to the simple proposal to add the Open PvE mode without taking anything away from what already exists ...everyone would be happy in my opinion
Well, no, not everyone would be happy. ;-)
I really don't understand FDev's reluctance either though. It was a suggestion in Kickstarter days. I think they'll be forced to it eventually, as multiplayer games usually are.
 
...and I really don't understand why FDEVs don't want to respond to the simple proposal to add the Open PvE mode without taking anything away from what already exists ...everyone would be happy in my opinion
As I believe has already been mentioned in the thread, doing so would be costly in terms of development time. Groups like Mobius are moderated by players, damage still functions the same as in any other mode. If Frontier were to create their own PvE mode they would have to ensure they had closed off all avenues of damage between players, ramming, station griefing etc, ensure that any resulting exploits were ironed out (there would be exploits, mark my words). They would also have to decide whether there would be systemic exceptions in CZs and code for that.

From their perspective you can see it'd be fairly attractive to let players carry on with the tools available, i.e. player-moderated PGs, the block feature, whatever. Ultimately all anyone can realistically hope for are small-scale instances of like-minded players, something which is already possible with the current implementation.
 
...and I really don't understand why FDEVs don't want to respond to the simple proposal to add the Open PvE mode without taking anything away from what already exists ...everyone would be happy in my opinion
Open + PVP was an idea they had at the beginning of the development. While the idea is interesting, it fails because of human nature and lack of punishment for malicious behavior and for some reason FD don't want to admit that.

Result is that open in its current state is ignored by many player, who play now solo or in private groups.

FD should remember that the original Elite was a pure PVE (yes, no internet available at that time) game and many who play ED today, played the original and hoped for a similar experience aside from the flood of PVP games.
 
As I believe has already been mentioned in the thread, doing so would be costly in terms of development time. Groups like Mobius are moderated by players, damage still functions the same as in any other mode. If Frontier were to create their own PvE mode they would have to ensure they had closed off all avenues of damage between players, ramming, station griefing etc, ensure that any resulting exploits were ironed out (there would be exploits, mark my words). They would also have to decide whether there would be systemic exceptions in CZs and code for that.

From their perspective you can see it'd be fairly attractive to let players carry on with the tools available, i.e. player-moderated PGs, the block feature, whatever. Ultimately all anyone can realistically hope for are small-scale instances of like-minded players, something which is already possible with the current implementation.
Player moderated groups are an option, but also here FD for some reason sabotage it by limiting the max player number.
Removing the limit was proposed by players many times.
 
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