Too much customisation?

[Depeche_Schtroumpf]

My 2 cents in this thread that definitly caught up my attention.

I understand what is worrying OP as I had a similar experience when I came back to RCT3. The difference being that it was not about the tool in itself, rather than the huge quantity of available assets and pieces provided by the modding scene that was quite established when I relaunched the game. I spent hours building a quarter of a park before realizing this was not fun anymore. The problem was that the grid system for wall and roofs requires a very large number of pieces to allow for a high level of details. People are already and rightly asking for new pieces in PC (half length, one meter height, etc...), for each texture. I am afraid that this will end up in a game where half the time is spent picking the pieces in a menu, which is in my opinion closer to playing with a jigsaw puzzle rather than a theme park simulation game.

I agree with OP about consistency. Coasters and paths are now gridless, but not the buildings. Looking at the Sims video made me realize that something more flexible could have been done for the buildings. That being said, I don't think the devs will completely change the building system now it is settled are approved by most players here. What I hope for, is that the interface will be tweaked to ease the selection of pieces and scenery. As for now, I have the feeling that everything is thrown together into the same place, and I am afraid that this will become a complete mess. For example, I don't undertand why some pieces are in Walls, Wall extras, or Wall attachments. Also, there isn't (yet?) any theme selection button. (No no, I don't have a sorting OCD ^^')

I wouldn't describe myself as hardcore builder nor complete casual, but as (maybe) someone in the average that likes to have a good looking park with enough details, but not having to spend hours on a single building to achieve this.

However, we must acknowledge that what we can build today in a few minutes is already WAY better than what we could do in previous games, and, maybe, some recolorable textures will help a lot in this aspect (wink wink, nudge nudge).

 

[SPRidley]

I see both sides of this argument, but the side of the OP is a very weak argument in my opinion. Currently there is nothing to scare away a casual gamer in the core of the game. Placing paths and rides is pretty rudimentary for a 3D game. It's actually better than most. The argument seems to come in when we bring up buildings and scenery, which at the moment aren't a necessity for the core gaming (as far as we know since we have no actual management implemented yet) and the argument seems to be, it's too hard for casual gamers.

So alright, lets play with that thought. Everyone here has a point of view, but no one seems to be throwing out ideas to improve it or actually explaining what the ~casual gamer~ needs improved to make what we currently have acceptable and approachable? We've already been informed that blueprints and sharing creations will be implemented so on top of knowing that, what exactly needs to be changed? There are long discussions in this thread about what people dislike... or who is ~elitist~... but let's actually talk about what needs to be changed or added. I have a feeling the core game will have pre-designed stalls/courts/restaurants because there is the greyed-out "shops" tab we have yet to see and i believe that will be built out food/shops stands for the more casual gamer who can't build 4 walls and a roof themselves.

From what i gather, the core argument is complexity and scaring off casual gamers, but that complexity can only be unlocked when you're delving deep into the building system, on the surface it's very simple. There is a rides tab, a shops tab, a scenery tab, a path tab... are we scared away yet? And then the building tab which doesn't need to be used to play the game, especially once the shops tab opens up (i believe, again alpha and we are all arguing over something we don't even know much about yet). And for casual gamers they won't care about building disney world style castles, they'll be happy plopping trees and flower beds which are as simple as it gets right now.

Include the fact that there will likely be tutorials... and things will likely be simplified to an extent once all the aspects are finally combined together into the game... I personally don't know exactly what people arguing here want. Do you want the complex options taken away? Or do you want to do the complex things like building a whole area without actually doing the building? Cause that's blueprints. From my perspective, this is a group people complaining that they don't want to spend the time or creativity needed to build the best parks... and want a simplified option to do so... and are deflecting by saying others are elitist for sticking up for those (non-mandatory) options in the game, because yes, simplifying customization is literally dumbing down the game. The basis of saying things are too much for casual gamers it literally saying they aren't smart enough to intuitively use the tools. That may not be politically correct to say, but the argument seems to be that this game isn't simple enough for a certain group... which is how you get games like Sim City 2013... womp womp.

Best post of the thread, couldn't say it better.

Most people agree RCT1 had the best campaigns

It was the best (not amazing) of the 3 games because of the system of unlocking parks until the final reward was good. RCT2 failed with this big time, and RCT3's bugged simulation in vanilla made the campaign a chore.
There are better campaigns in other simualtion and managing games (Theme Hospital is an good example), with more fun objectives, and not a slow as molasses repeptitive big ones you can't even fast forward.
As much as I liked originally (and I loved it), last time I tried to play it was not fun any more, because all the new a discovery of unlocking the next park was gone. Thats the only thing that needs to stay from RCT1, the pacing of the campaign mode unlocking, the rest is best if its improved in EVERY aspect.

 

[EmSay]

I don't really understand this point of view.... Too much customisation?
Is Life have too much possibility? Did this already make someone be desinterest of it?
The more you have, the more you can do. Customisation is a great bonus, and a time expander for a game, In other words, "the wealth".
Nobody want to play a poor game, those ones are forsaken. [haha]

 

[Roctopus]

I don't mind the customization but I'm not going to spend 5 or 6 hours lining up pieces to build a building like some do. I know some people really enjoy that but it sounds like they have the best of both worlds planned. If you want to customize your entire park go ahead, if you want to share and download your work and others go ahead, when the sharing starts there will be plenty of content for the community to download and just place. I'm hopeful that PC will also provide many buildings already in game as well. The level of customization will be up to the player which is cool. I have no problem with the game currently as the future plans will satisfy all.

 

[Ipi]

I don't mind spending hours building scenery, but sometimes with RCT3 it felt like I spent more time just searching for objects I wanted to use, especially if I didn't want to stick to one theme and wanted to use custom sets on top of that. I had hard time remembering where everything was and then it was endless scrolling to actually locate those items I needed. It was a nightmare. Can't really have enough search filters with this kind of game.

It is good that all wall pieces are now under the same tab regardless of their theme, but there should (and probably will) be an option to filter all pirate and fantasy walls, or only sci-fi walls or whatever combination I'm looking for. A must-have for me is on option to show all objects of certain theme regardless of their category. It is not a problem yet, but I can already see myself wondering if I should search for certain fantasy themed wall decor number xx under wall extras, wall attachments or somewhere else entirely [cry] There's already some stuff that does not make sense, it is only going to get worse with more objects.

Sub-categories would also help a lot, something like masonry/wooden/plaster style categories under walls, columns/cornices and such under wall extras and so forth.

TL;DR More building, less scrolling

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

I don't really understand this point of view.... Too much customisation?
Is Life have too much possibility? Did this already make someone be desinterest of it?
The more you have, the more you can do. Customisation is a great bonus, and a time expander for a game, In other words, "the wealth".
Nobody want to play a poor game, those ones are forsaken. [haha]

I think you missed the point, there is nothing wrong with a game that has a lot of customisation, but that needs to be kept in check to a point as well. Otherwise it just gets out of control. This is where the question stemmed from.

 

[ManiaMuse]

Wow, this thread got a bit heated.

I think the OP has a valid point to some extent. I just spent about half an hour making a building around 4 shops, something that in RCT3 would have never even thought to do; I would have just plopped down 4 shops, fiddled with the prices and been done with it in a minute or two.

I think there are definitely improvements to the UI to be made, some of the building submenus, tick boxes and tabs aren't the clearest and a bit confusing as to what is where. BTW there is a filter for theme and building set, it's just a bit hidden on the right hand side of the building tab (which is an example of what I mean by the UI not being clear). And I do share concerns that it will be quite cluttered and involve a lot of scrolling with the current menus once all the other building pieces are added.

Hopefully blueprints will improve things and the game will ship with a lot of pre-built blueprints for simple things like shops and coaster stations for the casual player who probably isn't going to want to spend much time searching through online creations to find something useful.

I do hope that the park/guest management and scenarios are well thought out to as to provide a focus other than just building pretty buildings just because it is possible.

I also do agree that RCT1 had the best scenarios. I can still reel off a lot of the park names despite not having played it for well over a decade. I think it was something about the fact that they all took time to complete (no fast forward), had individual character despite being quite restricted in terms of the actual game assets and were actually quite a challenge to complete (I don't think I ever completed Evergreen Gardens...). Plus not being able to skip them and having to complete scenarios to unlock the next one (RCT3 was too easy to rush through and bugged at launch, although Soaked and Wild made things a bit more interesting imo).

 

[gregorburns]

Wow, this thread got a bit heated.

I think the OP has a valid point to some extent. I just spent about half an hour making a building around 4 shops, something that in RCT3 would have never even thought to do; I would have just plopped down 4 shops, fiddled with the prices and been done with it in a minute or two.

I think there are definitely improvements to the UI to be made, some of the building submenus, tick boxes and tabs aren't the clearest and a bit confusing as to what is where. BTW there is a filter for theme and building set, it's just a bit hidden on the right hand side of the building tab (which is an example of what I mean by the UI not being clear). And I do share concerns that it will be quite cluttered and involve a lot of scrolling with the current menus once all the other building pieces are added.

Hopefully blueprints will improve things and the game will ship with a lot of pre-built blueprints for simple things like shops and coaster stations for the casual player who probably isn't going to want to spend much time searching through online creations to find something useful.

I do hope that the park/guest management and scenarios are well thought out to as to provide a focus other than just building pretty buildings just because it is possible.

I also do agree that RCT1 had the best scenarios. I can still reel off a lot of the park names despite not having played it for well over a decade. I think it was something about the fact that they all took time to complete (no fast forward), had individual character despite being quite restricted in terms of the actual game assets and were actually quite a challenge to complete (I don't think I ever completed Evergreen Gardens...). Plus not being able to skip them and having to complete scenarios to unlock the next one (RCT3 was too easy to rush through and bugged at launch, although Soaked and Wild made things a bit more interesting imo).

I hadn't noticed that the filter actually works now! Thank you [big grin]

 

[EmSay]

I think you missed the point, there is nothing wrong with a game that has a lot of customisation, but that needs to be kept in check to a point as well. Otherwise it just gets out of control. This is where the question stemmed from.

Sorry, is all about organisation so.[blah]

 

[Angelis1]

Let me quality the question a little more. Are Frontier is danger of making the game too customisable and intimidating for the casual player?

Obliviously the more customisation the better of course, as that will allow people to come out with some outlandish designs. And of course those can be shared with the community. And of course Fronter will add an amount of pre-built stuff for the base game themselves.

However I can still see someone coming into the game and being very intimidated by it, even given the above. As it currently stands (in its alpha state) I would say the game is in no way 'casual' friendly. Which is no real surprise of course, its the current expert 'builders' who are the ones that are giving the proper feedback, but therein lies the danger that experts will of course want expert tools and not necessarily think about the casual player. For the casuals things need to be a lot simpler than they currently are, along with tutorials etc.

Of course we have a long way to go and I wouldn't expect the nice things like tutorials to start appearing until well into Beta. But even so, its almost like there needs to be two modes for the game (interface wise), simplistic mode and expert mode.

This is a valid concern is it not?

I just want to say that everything you say is not related to the fact that there is too much or not enough customization in my opinion (because there is never enough anyway), but it's just a "UI/UX" question !

And, for me, this problem is already "fixed" with many UI elements in the game.

Exemple :

Here, with the "Terrain Scrulpting Tool", we have 3 states :

- Casual : The settings are not displayed, you can just raise the ground with the left click.
- Average : You can select the "Intensity" and the "Size" of the brush
- Expert : You can click on "More" to display the "Scenery Lock" and "Surface Lock"

I think they found the perfect solution where everyone can have, just by its use, the interface that suits him. [happy][up]
Just my opinion.

 

[gregorburns]

I just want to say that everything you say is not related to the fact that there is too much or not enough customization in my opinion (because there is never enough anyway), but it's just a "UI/UX" question !

And, for me, this problem is already "fixed" with many UI elements in the game.

Exemple :
http://i.imgur.com/N1atIm0.gif

Here, with the "Terrain Scrulpting Tool", we have 3 states :

- Casual : The settings are not displayed, you can just raise the ground with the left click.
- Average : You can select the "Intensity" and the "Size" of the brush
- Expert : You can click on "More" to display the "Scenery Lock" and "Surface Lock"

I think they found the perfect solution where everyone can have, just by its use, the interface that suits him. [happy][up]
Just my opinion.

#NestedComplexity [big grin]

 

[Angelis1]

#NestedComplexity [big grin]

Amen !

 

[aDOLPHINjoy18]

In my opinion, Frontier is known for making great looking games which are fun and game tools which are relatively easy to use for everyone. It just takes a bit of learning and practice but when you get the hang of it, it should be fun. Believe me they could of made Planet Coaster way more technical and complicated. Yes some peps make some amazing maps. But don't forget it likely takes them HOURS to do that level of detail. Just like it takes Frontier hours to create the pre-made maps in the game. But once you put in the time and effort in creating something, the result is beautiful. Maybe they'll add tutorials before the final version is released. When I play games, I just learn on the go as doing the tutorial can be time consuming. I only take tutorials when I absolutely need to.

 

[Abletudu]

BTW there is a filter for theme and building set, it's just a bit hidden on the right hand side of the building tab (which is an example of what I mean by the UI not being clear).

However, If you try filtering for wood, you will only see two wood scaffolds; whereas check modern and you will have wooden walls included. I think this needs correction.

 

[Angelis1]

However, If you try filtering for wood, you will only see two wood scaffolds; whereas check modern and you will have wooden walls included. I think this needs correction.

It's a little bit early for that no ? I mean, this is the kind of adjustment to make once much of the content is here, and sorted by themes, etc...

I think it's not necessary for now [happy]

EDIT : Speaking of that, I hope we can add some "tags" ("X" words, separated by a comma) when uploading UGC in the future.
This can help a lot to have a specific "form" to fill, with this kind of info, so that way, we can use the search bar even with custom content.

 

[MKelley]

• Phase 1: Modular building and Paths
• Phase 2: Adds Coaster Building and Landscape editing
• Phase 3: Adds Community Functionality and Blueprints

So when alpha 3 rolls out all this is moot. If you don't want to build buildings don't copy from database and enjoy. I can build some good coasters but I'm not good at recreateing let's say viper at six flags magic mountain but some else has I'm going to dl and add it to my park. Maybe I'm not skilled enough to or maybe I don't have the time. All I know is Frontier has a plan and has shared it with us.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

• Phase 1: Modular building and Paths
• Phase 2: Adds Coaster Building and Landscape editing
• Phase 3: Adds Community Functionality and Blueprints

So when alpha 3 rolls out all this is moot. If you don't want to build buildings don't copy from database and enjoy. I can build some good coasters but I'm not good at recreateing let's say viper at six flags magic mountain but some else has I'm going to dl and add it to my park. Maybe I'm not skilled enough to or maybe I don't have the time. All I know is Frontier has a plan and has shared it with us.

Again , I think you missed the point. I agree that once people can share stuff, and we have a fully formed game with pre-built buildings from Frontier and the community it will help. However as stated previously its not just about creating buildings. This wasn't just about creating buildings / coasters etc.

This was about the whole tool set available to the players and whether there could be too much customisation available. That includes customising rides, lights, Fireworks and so on. The point being that Frontier needs to ensure the game is approachable to those that want to just easily build stuff, as well as t the hardcore.

By the way I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything said here in general, most people in the thread have made valid points for and against. I can see both sides of the discussion and both sides are equally important, which is why I bought it up.

 

[Fishook]

As long as there a enjoyable base game with pre made bulidings a nd a decent tutorial It wiill be fine, Most people don't both with advance fuctions in games unless you are a dedicated player. Most people would'nt know different types of coaster, and just use pre bulid one. Us Alpha testers want to see more advance features where general players don't bother with.

In my 50 plus hours of Cities: Skylines (loads of small cities) I have'nt bothered with taxes and polices much yet.

 

[Minnion]

Again , I think you missed the point. I agree that once people can share stuff, and we have a fully formed game with pre-built buildings from Frontier and the community it will help. However as stated previously its not just about creating buildings. This wasn't just about creating buildings / coasters etc.

This was about the whole tool set available to the players and whether there could be too much customisation available. That includes customising rides, lights, Fireworks and so on. The point being that Frontier needs to ensure the game is approachable to those that want to just easily build stuff, as well as t the hardcore.

By the way I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything said here in general, most people in the thread have made valid points for and against. I can see both sides of the discussion and both sides are equally important, which is why I bought it up.

So why do you think ride and lighting customization when combined with the possibility of designing a fireworks display would be "Too much"? (Do you worry that such options would not be easy to understand and use if the player chose to explore them?) If so I'm inclined to ask just who do you think this game would appeal to beyond the RCT and Sim game fan-bases?

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

So why do you think ride and lighting customization when combined with the possibility of designing a fireworks display would be "Too much"? (Do you worry that such options would not be easy to understand and use if the player chose to explore them?) If so I'm inclined to ask just who do you think this game would appeal to beyond the RCT and Sim game fan-bases?

The game should appeal to as many as people as possible, that's the end goal of any game development project regardless of the genre or type of game. Of course the Sim/RCT crowd are the primary audience, thats goes without saying. But even people that fit themselves into that category may not want to worry about all the little details that they might be able to change. The point being that whilst there should be plenty of customisation for the core audience there should also be a level of simplicity as well for those who don't care about every little detail as well.

You could make the argument that you can never have too much customisation, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that statement, but in the end a player who wants the simpler approach should be able to do that as well.