Torpedos are cool; quitting to reload is not.

[WreckRoot]

Long story short - allow torps to be reloaded without returning to base, just make sure this cannot be done in a fight. I'm fully on board with the idea of "once per fight" weapons, high risk high reward and all, but forcing the player to leave the battle entirely and take a leisurely cruise to a dock somewhere completely breaks the mood for me.

You could either make it long enough to make sure the fight is over before it's done, you could make the process crippling for the ship or make it fail upon being hit, discouraging from mid-fight attempts.


For example:

• give torps a 5x clip size ammo capacity and a 5 minute reload time, perhaps even make it strain the WEP capacitor and/or generate heat, or
• give them a synthesis option that takes 2 minutes and breaks upon being hit, or
• add a new optional module e.g. torpedo assembler, limit to one per ship, make assignable to hotkey and/or firing group. When used it would consume resources and power and generate heat for 2 minutes, crippling your combat capability while it assembles the torpedoes, or
• give them a synthesis that takes normal amount of time but has a 5 minute cooldown. Might have to remove class 3 torps from the game cause 8 torps in short succession from a single pylon could be OP.

Pick an option depending on what is easiest and can be protected from abuse (e.g. relogging to remove a cooldown).

Whatever you decide, please - when you're participating in combat, having to leave the area and dock somewhere feels like quitting the game. ANY form of reload, even if it forces you to stay back and observe the fight from a distance for a few minutes, is better than one forcing you to quit the game.

We can have shields that take 5+ minutes to recharge, it's not like this would be new...

 

[JBR]

Long story short - allow torps to be reloaded without returning to base, just make sure this cannot be done in a fight. I'm fully on board with the idea of "once per fight" weapons, high risk high reward and all, but forcing the player to leave the battle entirely and take a leisurely cruise to a dock somewhere completely breaks the mood for me.

You could either make it long enough to make sure the fight is over before it's done, you could make the process crippling for the ship or make it fail upon being hit, discouraging from mid-fight attempts.


For example:

• give torps a 5x clip size ammo capacity and a 5 minute reload time, perhaps even make it strain the WEP capacitor and/or generate heat, or
• give them a synthesis option that takes 2 minutes and breaks upon being hit, or
• add a new optional module e.g. torpedo assembler, limit to one per ship, make assignable to hotkey and/or firing group. When used it would consume resources and power and generate heat for 2 minutes, crippling your combat capability while it assembles the torpedoes, or
• give them a synthesis that takes normal amount of time but has a 5 minute cooldown. Might have to remove class 3 torps from the game cause 8 torps in short succession from a single pylon could be OP.

Pick an option depending on what is easiest and can be protected from abuse (e.g. relogging to remove a cooldown).

Whatever you decide, please - when you're participating in combat, having to leave the area and dock somewhere feels like quitting the game. ANY form of reload, even if it forces you to stay back and observe the fight from a distance for a few minutes, is better than one forcing you to quit the game.

We can have shields that take 5+ minutes to recharge, it's not like this would be new...

You can't synthesize them? I don't have any but everything I use I can synthesize (I think).

 

[WreckRoot]

You can't synthesize them? I don't have any but everything I use I can synthesize (I think).

Nope, you can't. It's the only weapon in the game that can't synthesize ammo, nor does even have an ammo capacity - class 1/2/3 torp pylon has respectively 1/2/4 torpedoes in a clip and that's it. Once you fire them, you need to fly off to a station.

I argue that having limited torps in a fight and forcing the player to resupply out of combat is OK, but requiring that the player leaves the zone entirely to dock at a station is going too far.

 

[Captain_Nyet]

Torps being a once per fight weapon is great until you realise that torps don't hit very often (due to all the counters) and that even in the absolute best case scenario (every torpedo hits) you still have a weapon that deals 120/240/480 damage per fight; that is to say a missile rack will significantly out-damage your once per battle weapon with a single clip (in fact, a class 1 Missile rack will out-damage a class 2 topredo rack, same for a class 2 seekers vs class 3 torps)

Torpedoes are absolutely worthless weapons whose only real saving grace is the borderline broken reverberating cascade effect; on top of that they're absurdly expensive weapons to resupply, to the point where you will be spending more money killing most bounties than you can gain.

These weapons need a big rework if they're to be usable, and while I definitely think they could use a reload ability, I don't think that would be nearly enough to make them good.

 

[WreckRoot]

Torps being a once per fight weapon is great until you realise that torps don't hit very often (due to all the counters) and that even in the absolute best case scenario (every torpedo hits) you still have a weapon that deals 120/240/480 damage per fight; that is to say a missile rack will significantly out-damage your once per battle weapon with a single clip (in fact, a class 1 Missile rack will out-damage a class 2 topredo rack, same for a class 2 seekers vs class 3 torps)

Torpedoes are absolutely worthless weapons whose only real saving grace is the borderline broken reverberating cascade effect; on top of that they're absurdly expensive weapons to resupply, to the point where you will be spending more money killing most bounties than you can gain.

These weapons need a big rework if they're to be usable, and while I definitely think they could use a reload ability, I don't think that would be nearly enough to make them good.

That "borderline broken" effect is exactly what makes them interesting. You can spam seekers all day long and not put a dent in a cutter's shields, until you manage to sneak a few RC torps between a few pack hounds and bam, disabled.

You can call this OP, I call it amazing that a small, nimble plane can destroy or cripple a massive battleship by properly gearing for it.
Small ships with RC Mines/Torpedos are literally Dive/Torpedo bombers from WW2, and just as a bomb/torpedo properly dropped from a puny airplane could sink a battleship in WW2, a puny small fighter can cripple a corvette/cutter. To me, it's BEAUTIFUL... with the only problem being discussed in the OP

 

[Ameeleean]

1st about in-game weapons:
Torpedo
Clip size 1, high payload, high velocity, very low maneuverability (practically capable of only minor course corrections)- a weapon meant to handle larger, slower and heavily armored targets. If You get hit by it You are either dead or crippled if lucky, that's the whole idea behind torpedo. As for synthesis being disabled that is ok- after all You can't make a thing that resembles small ship "on the fly".

and now about things we do not have in-game:

Light torpedo
Clip size higher than missiles, unguided, fast. Torpedo launcher simply fires charge in straight line, any course correction after charge has been fired is not possible. Synthesis is available since all You have to do is to rig simple casing for explosives without propulsion and guidance systems.

Main difference between missile and torpedo should be amount of each ship can carry and cost of making one. Guided missile should be more expensive and take more space than simple torpedo that basically is a warhead without propulsion and guidance systems.

General idea behind missile is to have weapon capable of delivering proper payload (that is actually a threat to target and not something that would feel like mosquito bite) to distant target BEFORE getting into conventional weapons range and also capable to deal with countermeasures like chaff and ECM. In case of torpedo it is ability to do the same with the exception of target being VERY slow or even immobile (like base).

Also imagine how combat would look like if we had missiles outfitted with class 0 FSD drive meant to be used in supercruise mode...

 

[WreckRoot]

1st about in-game weapons:
Torpedo
Clip size 1, high payload, high velocity, very low maneuverability (practically capable of only minor course corrections)- a weapon meant to handle larger, slower and heavily armored targets. If You get hit by it You are either dead or crippled if lucky, that's the whole idea behind torpedo. As for synthesis being disabled that is ok- after all You can't make a thing that resembles small ship "on the fly".

and now about things we do not have in-game:

Light torpedo
Clip size higher than missiles, unguided, fast. Torpedo launcher simply fires charge in straight line, any course correction after charge has been fired is not possible. Synthesis is available since all You have to do is to rig simple casing for explosives without propulsion and guidance systems.

Main difference between missile and torpedo should be amount of each ship can carry and cost of making one. Guided missile should be more expensive and take more space than simple torpedo that basically is a warhead without propulsion and guidance systems.

General idea behind missile is to have weapon capable of delivering proper payload (that is actually a threat to target and not something that would feel like mosquito bite) to distant target BEFORE getting into conventional weapons range and also capable to deal with countermeasures like chaff and ECM. In case of torpedo it is ability to do the same with the exception of target being VERY slow or even immobile (like base).

Also imagine how combat would look like if we had missiles outfitted with class 0 FSD drive meant to be used in supercruise mode...

Errr... what exactly would be the difference between that "light torpedo" you're talking about and the myriad of other missiles available? We have Torpedoes, Seeker missiles, Pack Hounds, Dumbfire missiles including enzyme missiles. What exactly do they not do that you would imagine light torps to do?

 

[Ameeleean]

Missile, even if it is dumbfire type, still has propulsion system which takes up space. Light torpedo would be simply an explosive propelled by torpedo launcher (therefore using a lot more energy than missile to launch). The main difference would be heat generation and energy consumption used to fire them:
Torpedo: consumes energy and generates heat when fired, high ammo capacity
Missile: consumes no energy and generates no heat when fired, low ammo capacity

1MW to keep missile system active is a bit too high unless there is some kind of future tech involved which tunnels that power into warhead to make it more potent in terms of damage.

 

[WreckRoot]

Missile, even if it is dumbfire type, still has propulsion system which takes up space. Light torpedo would be simply an explosive propelled by torpedo launcher (therefore using a lot more energy than missile to launch). The main difference would be heat generation and energy consumption used to fire them:
Torpedo: consumes energy and generates heat when fired, high ammo capacity
Missile: consumes no energy and generates no heat when fired, low ammo capacity

1MW to keep missile system active is a bit too high unless there is some kind of future tech involved which tunnels that power into warhead to make it more potent in terms of damage.

Err... ok, what is the difference between your light torpedo and a cannon then?
btw. torpedoes have propulsion by definition so you're going in a weird direction with this.

 

[here_it_comes]

You can call this OP, I call it amazing that a small, nimble plane can destroy or cripple a massive battleship by properly gearing for it. . . . a puny small fighter can cripple a corvette/cutter. To me, it's BEAUTIFUL...

Except small ships can't do this as they can only carry 6 torpedoes, and it takes 4 RC Torps to drop an FDL's shields. 8, if I recall correctly, for a Cutter. Then you still have to destroy the hull, but you don't have enough Torps to kill a single ship, can't synth, lol time to fly home because you were dumb enough to fly a small torp boat.

Torps are totally trash with some tiny niches they can be used for if you're willing to bother. They work to speed up Wing Assassination missions, but even then I rarely bother with them as it only saves time if you only have a single Wing Assassination mission and no other missions to do. Otherwise, it's faster to just take normal weapons and have a normal fight than it is to fly home between every fight.

FD claims ship combat is "in a good place", so I wouldn't hold your breath OP.

 

[WreckRoot]

Except small ships can't do this as they can only carry 6 torpedoes, and it takes 4 RC Torps to drop an FDL's shields. 8, if I recall correctly, for a Cutter. Then you still have to destroy the hull, but you don't have enough Torps to kill a single ship, can't synth, lol time to fly home because you were dumb enough to fly a small torp boat.

Torps are totally trash with some tiny niches they can be used for if you're willing to bother. They work to speed up Wing Assassination missions, but even then I rarely bother with them as it only saves time if you only have a single Wing Assassination mission and no other missions to do. Otherwise, it's faster to just take normal weapons and have a normal fight than it is to fly home between every fight.

FD claims ship combat is "in a good place", so I wouldn't hold your breath OP.

Your complaint seems to be very much in line with mine, in that you agree it's cool that a small torp boat can blow the shields off a big ship, but it sucks that this definitively puts it out of the game.

I think that if the latter problem was fixed (i.e. if you just needed to withdraw to a safe distance for a while instead of supercruising to dock), then this kind of boom&zoom tactics would be pretty damn cool.

 

[here_it_comes]

Your complaint seems to be very much in line with mine, in that you agree it's cool that a small torp boat can blow the shields off a big ship, but it sucks that this definitively puts it out of the game.

I think that if the latter problem was fixed (i.e. if you just needed to withdraw to a safe distance for a while instead of supercruising to dock), then this kind of boom&zoom tactics would be pretty damn cool.

Torpedoes would have to carry more ammo than they currently do and be synthable. Problem is, Torps would then be OP. I don't see how FD can make Torps work and not be broken given ED's combat mechanics which allows for nothing but dog fights, where torpedoes do not belong. Until and unless FD revamps ED's combat mechanics to allow for long range fighting (6km is dog fighting range in flight), I don't see Torps ever not sucking. FD honestly shouldn't have bother cramming torpedoes into a dog fighting game in the first place, but here we are.

 

[WreckRoot]

Torpedoes would have to carry more ammo than they currently do and be synthable. Problem is, Torps would then be OP. I don't see how FD can make Torps work and not be broken given ED's combat mechanics which allows for nothing but dog fights, where torpedoes do not belong. Until and unless FD revamps ED's combat mechanics to allow for long range fighting (6km is dog fighting range in flight), I don't see Torps ever not sucking. FD honestly shouldn't have bother cramming torpedoes into a dog fighting game in the first place, but here we are.

I can't say I understand your position here. Engaging at 6km, where I feel much more like a sniper than a dogfighter in my reverski rail krait, sure feels like long range fighting. And why wouldn't torps belong in dogfights? Why wouldn't a close range flyby be a good moment to drop a torpedo against an enemy that stalled himself with boost on cooldown.
Also, we don't necessarily need to make torps competitive. As long as they're legitimately fun to use once a while, it will be good enough imho. And that they already are, except for the fact that you have to completely leave the area after you're out of torps. If that's fixed, I am soooo looking forward to grabbing a Viper and harassing some NPC corvettes xD.

 

[here_it_comes]

Engaging at 6km, where I feel much more like a sniper than a dogfighter in my reverski rail krait, sure feels like long range fighting.

If the distance between 2 craft can be closed in a matter of seconds, it is dog fighting range. For reference, Sidewinder missiles are classified as short range weaponry, despite the fact that they have a range of ~20 miles and are utilized by crafts that are both slower and less agile than ships in ED. 6km is long rang in ED only because that is the upper limit of ED's combat mechanics, but it plays exactly as dog fights do because it is indeed dog fighting range. FD chose to make space ship combat in ED mirror WW2 dog fights.

Why wouldn't a close range flyby be a good moment to drop a torpedo against an enemy that stalled himself with boost on cooldown.

Because Torps simply aren't worth the hardpoint space. Don't get me wrong, you could do this, but there is a reason basically no one does. And if FD introduced Synth for Torpedoes, why bother with missiles?

Also, we don't necessarily need to make torps competitive. As long as they're legitimately fun to use once a while, it will be good enough imho. And that they already are, except for the fact that you have to completely leave the area after you're out of torps. If that's fixed, I am soooo looking forward to grabbing a Viper and harassing some NPC corvettes xD.

The crux of the issue is that FD's version of a torpedo is just a slow missile that does more damage. It's simply not enough to delineate torpedoes into a unique weapon. We'd have the same issue if FD introduced an "Auto-Cannon" that was just a Multi-Cannon that did more damage and had lower velocities. Assuming it wasn't at least somewhat comparable to Multi-Cannons, it would be largely ignored, as Torpedoes are. Torpedoes are weaponry meant to attack large enemy vessels, which is not a part of ED. We have Capital ships, but they are rare and unaffected by Torpedoes anyways. Torpedoes being used on fighter craft is just non-sensical. Me way as well have carpet bombing for our dog fights too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shut down the concept of usable Torpedoes. I'd love to see it. I'm just saying it would require either a rework of ED's ship combat or entirely new combat scenarios for it to have a real place, and we are unlikely to see that unless ED gets a reboot.

 

[Ameeleean]

Err... ok, what is the difference between your light torpedo and a cannon then?
btw. torpedoes have propulsion by definition so you're going in a weird direction with this.

You can interpret differences in many ways and You can also say cannon is no different from rail gun or even laser...
My own idea for torpedo in space is for it to be able to deliver maximum payload in straight line- a form of heavy artillery from modern warfare adapted for space combat where no gravity or friction is present (therefore there is no need to use propulsion to keep speed or use guidance system to lock it on target). As for missiles they should be most expensive weapon to use in game and also the most threatening one... if You have no countermeasures for it installed.

I also agree that combat in ED resembles WWII dog-fighting too but guess what happened to fighters with cannons after they met fighters armed in missiles in our history...

 

[here_it_comes]

I also agree that combat in ED resembles WWII dog-fighting too but guess what happened to fighters with cannons after they met fighters armed in missiles in our history...

That's when that WW2 era dog fighting came to an abrupt end. But here we are, in the year 3307, engaging in WW2 dog fights and trying to figure out how to torpedo each other.

 

[Ted Striker]

Reverberating cascade torpedoes are the only torpedoes worth using. As a high damage, low ammo capacity weapon theyr'e sorely lacking otherwise.

How about a torpedo more like this?

Russia's Poseidon Nuclear Torpedo Base to be Ready by Summer 2022 - Naval News

The coastal base for strategic unmanned underwater Poseidon craft will be ready in the summer of 2022. The construction of maintenance and storage infrastructure for the new strategic weapon will be completed.

www.navalnews.com

I don't like the idea of one-hit-wonder weapons, but I don't like the idea of torpedoes being useless without reverberating cascade either.

 

[WreckRoot]

Guys, what the bloody F are you all talking about...

If the distance between 2 craft can be closed in a matter of seconds, it is dog fighting range. For reference, Sidewinder missiles are classified as short range weaponry, despite the fact that they have a range of ~20 miles and are utilized by crafts that are both slower and less agile than ships in ED. 6km is long rang in ED only because that is the upper limit of ED's combat mechanics, but it plays exactly as dog fights do because it is indeed dog fighting range. FD chose to make space ship combat in ED mirror WW2 dog fights.

Sidewinders are "short range" only because something else outranges them, namely longer range missiles. The moment high-powered laser weaponry with hundreds of kilometers of effective range comes to use, everything below that will become short range. In WW2, a Sidewinder would be categorized as a Long-As-All-F***-Range Anti-Air Wonder Weapon.

To me, short/long range distinction is clearly relative and something else and would probably involve answering questions like:

• can a more maneuverable ship consistently stay out of a less maneuverable one's gunpoint?
• can you consistently hit the enemy with weapons that trade range for raw damage (PAs, Frags)?

If your answers are "no", then this is a long range engagement to me.

You're free to have a different definition and let's agree to disagree.

And if FD introduced Synth for Torpedoes, why bother with missiles?

Missiles would be synthesizable in-fight, torpedoes would require you to stay out of combat for a moment. Read my OP.

The crux of the issue is that FD's version of a torpedo is just a slow missile that does more damage. It's simply not enough to delineate torpedoes into a unique weapon.

I somewhat agree, although you could argue that cannons are just slow multicannons that do more damage... and yet they are being used .
However, it just so happens that RC makes them exactly that - a unique, tactical weapon, capable of delivering a striking blow out of reach to other weapons. Mass Lock and Penetrator Payload experimentals are other examples of good ideas for making torps unique. I would also suggest other unique experimentals, like for example one that increases the ship's mass by a significant amount, making it less maneuverable for a some time (call it Gravwell Generator or Inertial Disruptor or whatever).

You can interpret differences in many ways and You can also say cannon is no different from rail gun or even laser...

You can also say a rock is no different than USSR or the color yellow or the smell of cherry blossoms dipped in vodka, but where the hell are you going with this?
Railgun = charged, ammo based, hitscan (instant hit), mixed thermal/kinetic weapon with maximum penetration depth
Laser = instant-shot, energy based, hitscan, thermal weapon with low-medium penetration depth
Cannon = instant-shot, ammo based, slow, unguided projectile delivering a high damage shell with high penetration depth
Your idea of light torpedo = (presumably) instant-shot, ammo based, slow, unguided projectile delivering a high damage shell with high penetration depth

Your idea not only overlaps 100% with what we already have as the Cannon, but it alsogoes against the very definition of a torpedo:

Torpedo​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A modern torpedo is an underwater ranged weapon launched above or below the water surface, self-propelled towards a target, and with an explosive warhead designed to detonate either on contact with or in proximity to the target.

So I ask again - where the hell are you going with this?

 

[here_it_comes]

Sidewinders are "short range" only because something else outranges them, namely longer range missiles.

No, they are short range because any distance that can be closed in seconds is short range when you are talking about craft combat. Sidewinders made their debut in the 50s before we had longer range missiles and were still rightly considered short range weaponry.

I somewhat agree, although you could argue that cannons are just slow multicannons that do more damage... and yet they are being used .

Yeah, and cannons suck. A pattern is emerging . . .

 

[Ameeleean]

Laser fires photons which happen to travel at light speed, cannon fires shells and how they are accelerated is not written so it can be as well EM field which accelerates shell to desired velocity, a shell with built in energy source for that EM field or even old fashioned gunpowder (or high tech futuristic version of it), railgun also uses very strong EM field to propel small sized shell to achieve instant hit (which basically means it is perceived by human as instant). Different and similar at the same time... all depends from point of view.

I would want for torpedo to be like artillery in space meant to handle slow targets (or bases). Pull the trigger, fire, pull the trigger again to detonate manually or wait for detonation on contact. No need to install complex guidance system or propulsion system which can be fooled by ECM (if You like You can call this dumbfire torpedo WreckRot)- lets just say it is too dumb to be fooled by ECM- and saved up space and mass can be used to store more ammo.