General / Off-Topic Toxoid multiplayer environment.
- Thread starter lysan
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prolly one of the reasons the online community becomes more and more toxic.
There are many various behavior patterns but a lot of people who didnt have your experiences or way of living wont have the inclination or the understanding to handle your "normal" talking and take offense. Either by repetition or escalation things quickly spiral out of control with more hardcore consequences being the result (doxxing, stalking, cyber-bullying). Now what side carries more weight is arguable (the side which cant take it or the side which doesnt give a flying fart) but theres a reason why police officers usually remain calm and polite during a traffic stop or until you break a law.
Because running your mouth without thinking who you talk to usually results in physical harm or grief...all of which was avoidable in the first place.
The internet presents a physical barrier that also acts as a first line of defense against bodily harm. And while this lowers the amount of injuries due to social interaction other forms of harm (mental) become dominant and evolve beyond their initial definition. My "default" state is pretty much the way in which I post on this forum but I am not beyond mocking or joking (and in text many jokes fail if the other side doesnt recognize it as such) especially when I am confronted with verbal abuse. I dont like confrontation but I understand the point of "standing up to your side of the argument"...only that in the real world what you have to say often isnt important because body size, agression and combat skill determines the outcome of an argument in the street. I ve had my fair share of scraps when I was younger but at some point the risk of broken bones or death simply doesnt justify a petty "I was right" anymore.
The internet allows me to say what I want to say without some stranger snapping and going after me with a knife. That doesnt mean I can (or should) be rude, obnoxious, confrontational or anything else that would normally result in such a way. Does that mean you have to change to align with others? This is a toughie....
Basically YES...if you expect to live in a society you absolutely have to follow certain social rules and norms otherwise you ll stand out like a pink-colored unicorn and be shunned or confronted. That doesnt mean you have to give up yourself in order to fit in but of course there are some rather drastic individuals who have to do exactly that in order to go by. And this constant disguise comes at a prize namely venting. Now some people chose sports or any form of competition to blow some steam...some drink or perform other forms of self-abuse. But the internet is always there, always available, dirt cheap and provides you a form of freedom that allows you to live out your inner self.
Of course this is all an observation (might not be THE answer but its a probable one) and not a solution. Countries work for the most part because of a rigid set of laws that are enforced by the power-monopoly within...namely the government (police, military) and most people stay in line out of fear of consequences and because the majority knows what is allowed and whats not. Punishment is a pretty good deterrent in any situation. The internet is a mixed bag for this. Some places are moderated pretty well, others not at all. Some give you a set of rules but dont enforce them (which is the same as no-mens-land)
The degeneration of social etiquette on the internet is a constant ongoing phenomenon. Without immediate visual identification you never know if you are interacting with a man, a woman, a child. This only dramatically increases the risk of offense if you dont take the time to get to know whoever you talk to. Pretty much nobody has the time anymore these days and in some places people simply throw out whatever is on their mind without a care for who might actually read it (youtube for example)
Now it could be someone who doesnt give a flying fart about you and your opinion and will instantly dismiss it or not even read it at all. Or it could be someone who takes offense at your statement for any reason. And of course you have the children (because the internet makes such a good job of preventing our minors to see what they shouldnt...righjt?) who read it and use it in their own environment. They follow flame wars or read any of the despicable outbursts and because they are children might not know how to handle or interprete this. Their parents might not even know they are consuming such content and because the average child knows very well what it shouldnt do (but does it anyway) it wont go to its parents for clarification or safety.
While before childrens education and upbringing was the sole responsibility of the parents the internet has brought us all into the fray. And this means we lead by example. The internet is a warground for words and most people are not equipped or stable enough to survive in this environment.
I am certainly not beyond returning a verbal snipe or ridicule but in my case its usually a reaction to an antagonist. Other then that I try to remain civil and polite and am able to walk away without having existential self-doubts about it.
In general I consider the digital world to be a fair reflection of the real world. There are social rules and etiquette but people can decide if they follow them or not. In some places they will be punished if they break the rules. Other places allow them to live out their inner self. At every corner there are individuals who try to take advantage of you. And in the real world people survive unmolested because they know which places to avoid, when to keep their mouths shut and how to deescalate potentially deadly situations.
So knowledge is the primary difference.
And just like the real world the internet teaches by punishment mostly. Go toe-to-toe with somebody you are no match for and you ll get your behind handed to you leaving you with all kinds of nasty feelings. Other times you get moderated until you "get it". If you search for law-less places where you can act and behave like you want other people will take over the punishment until you adapt, leave or excell at the mud-slinging.
That is the downside of "owning somebody" on the internet. The loser might withdraw or admit defeat but in most cases only temporarily retreats, licks the wounds then returns with a new angle to try for victory. If you participate in challenges then this will never stop. You will never be the "winner" just like in real life. Positions of power are constantly challenged requiring you to stay on your toes, invest effort to maintain your position and stay vigilant. In the real world the pool of potential challengers regulates itself because losers usually leave the pool. On the internet defeat is just a temporary time-out (if at all) so the pool constantly grows to a level where we perceive general toxcicity or hostility as being the norm or majority.
Again...these are just observations. Not a solution or accusation. I grew up with computers and even tho the new forms of internet ettiquette escape me or leave me bewildered I know my way around. Have the correct level of paranoia to avoid scammers and hackers and generally know how to handle agression (aka thick hide). But thats me. Lots of people my age never had that much interest in computers and the internet, use it like a phone mostly so are clueless when it comes to kowledge and survival. The problem is of course when these people have kids who dont have a choice in this matter. Todays generation will never know how it is to grow up without smart phones, tablets or the internet. As a consequence kids today on average outskill their parents when it comes to the digital world. These are not "exceptional" kids like it would be the case for math or something. I consider this pretty much the norm where children are not under constant observation and people hand them a loaded gun (computer) for distraction to have some peace.
When I run into a rampant young child in the real world whos parents are nowhere to be seen I can approach it, restrain it or even punish it depending on the offensive action. I could as well ignore it but if it then runs off into the traffic or gets hurt/killed then I am complicit to the tragedy. The internet mostly removes the controlling factors (restrainment, punishment) and leaves the consequences.
As such the internet in its current form only teaches the "law of the jungle" only that all the cruelty, punishment and toxicity are not a requirement as it would be in nature. Its just an oversight because the controlling factors either ignore the problem or are not even aware of it. Like a runaway train which is heading for a catastrophy.
I think its only a matter of time until the rest of the world catches up and realizes what is happening. Because if the internet dictates education and behavior in the real world there will be all kinds of mayhem and suffering all of which could ve been avoided. Right now we are in the transition phase. People realize something is off, mostly because of the effects (toxicity, verbal diarrhea and hostility are on the rise resuling in RL clashes/consequences) and I have no doubt that more control will be brought to this medium in order to prevent long-lasting trauma or degenerative trends.
Recognizing or acknowledging a problem is often part of the solution. And thats the main reason for this wall of text. I dont really want to single out anybody or "enforce" social rules but because I am aware of potential problems or consequences I adjust my own behavior accordingly. Dont make your own bedroom (where you can do what you want) center stage of the world. ^^
Just so that you know, not all Discord's are toxic. If thats what you were referring with "this platform".
Oh I'm sure there are lots of great people on Discord and a lot of really nice servers. But I'm heavy on first impressions and the Elite elitists screwed it up for everybody.
That’s all fine, I was in the military too, and yes the tone is rough, however this is not what I refer to, if you listen to a conversation you can clearly tell the difference!
I would argue that the current "state" of the internet is a reflection of the social break down of society. Particularly was qualifies as "parenting" these days.
More often than not I see parents leave their children to be raised by tv and video games unsupervised as a substitute to actually raising them. Paraphrasing said above as creating or learning the next generation of "toxic" behavior.
I am of the "pre-internet" era, dial up just became a house hold luxury the time I was 10 or 11 years old. My time on the internet highly monitored and supervised. I learned manners because if I was ever rude or threw a tantrum as a child....the butt whopping I would get when I got home was epic.
Now we are in the world of "safe spaces" "trigger words" and absent parenting. I don't think government regulation is going to "fix" anything until things are fixed at home. Seeing how "strict" parenting is declared as "child abused" these days I don't see that happening.
More often than not I see parents leave their children to be raised by tv and video games unsupervised as a substitute to actually raising them. Paraphrasing said above as creating or learning the next generation of "toxic" behavior.
I am of the "pre-internet" era, dial up just became a house hold luxury the time I was 10 or 11 years old. My time on the internet highly monitored and supervised. I learned manners because if I was ever rude or threw a tantrum as a child....the butt whopping I would get when I got home was epic.
Now we are in the world of "safe spaces" "trigger words" and absent parenting. I don't think government regulation is going to "fix" anything until things are fixed at home. Seeing how "strict" parenting is declared as "child abused" these days I don't see that happening.
The age and gender of a stranger changing how one interacts with them is a largely foreign concept to me.
I don't ask people how old they are, what gender they are, what color their skin is, or where they are from, when I interact with them, because it's completely irrelevant the overwhelming majority of the time.
Are they?
I would argue that this is a completely absurd correlation, based on fallacious premises.
I'm not sure what you see as evidence of the break down of society, but absentee parents are nothing new and those you mention are of your generation. The current state of the internet, which I don't think is particularly bad by most rational metrics, is also due to it's users who cover the full spectrum of age demographics. The only age group that aren't majority users are the dead ones and you'll find proportionally just as many toxic individuals old enough to be your parents as your children.
How odd. The majority of my experience in voice chat in multiplayer has been overwhelmingly positive. In World of Warcraft there would be the occasional boor, but nothing that was more toxic than interactions that I experienced in person. In fact, what struck me was the generosity of some World of Warcraft players who would purchase subscriptions for complete strangers who could not afford to pay for them. It was so refreshing to realize that it was primarily the mind of the player that was respected and esteemed. Actual physical attributes were/are of no importance in this type of communication. There is a wonderful purity to that. And assuming an adequate vocabulary, very equalizing.
My experience in voice chat in Elite Dangerous has also been very positive. I guess I am very lucky in my choice of social circle. Perhaps I should not try Rainbow 6 Siege.....
My experience in voice chat in Elite Dangerous has also been very positive. I guess I am very lucky in my choice of social circle. Perhaps I should not try Rainbow 6 Siege.....
The problem is of course that unlike in our times (your upbringing reflects my own ^^) society and even the government today interferes with parenting. I can see how all the dos and donts are overly confusing for parents today who dont know what to do when their kids throw a tantrum or behave like little jerks. Previously physical punishment was a quick reminder to the rules. It was fast, didnt do lasting damage and pretty much garantueed a civilized front. Slapping your child today is "child abuse" all of a sudden and as if removing one of the most effective tools in a parents portfolio wasnt enough you are socially ostracised if you use certain words too ("no" and "cant" have no place in parenting anymore obviously....)
So parents are expected to keep their children in line but are restricted in that to a degree where most fail. And this is just the social interaction. Now you have the internet which by now directly targets the younger audience taking over education and rolemodel away from the parents. When before these revolting times were reserved for teenagers and young adults today its the very young...often less then 10 years who try to act like bad hombres and learn abhorrent language without much fear of retaliation. Because if the kid misbehaves its the parents fault and they get punished. And the parents cant even punish the child because that would be child abuse.
When I take a stroll today and get to public places I often see (not the norm but frequently) childs who act in a noisy and annoying manner....with their parents ignoring their outbursts or letting them harass others. First of all in my childhood my parents would ve made a quick stop to that. A harsh jerk on the arm, a glare or a silent promise for physical punishment later once we are back at home were all utilized and lead to results quickly once I learned that my actions had consequences. Even if I forgot in the moment (as children do) a reminder without punishment would quickly correct my behavior based on my past experience ("remember what will happen if you dont behave")
Even if my parents would ve ignored my misbehavior 40 years ago strangers simply would ve performed the corrective measures. It wasnt uncommon back then when I was out with my friends to get a butt whooping from people who got annoyed by our "adventures" if they caught us of course - we were rebels. Even if we escaped our neighbourhood was tight so people knew each other and if somebody came to "talk" to my parents I got my punishment with a dela from them.
Nowadays you are expected to "explain" stuff to your child and hope it ll understand and self-corrects because of it. Call me a skeptic but I dont think that ever worked out in the history of mankind. Punishment simply changed from physical to mental. Now children are deprived of love and attention and parents keep their sanity by growing a thick skin that borders on ignorance. When I got a beating I knew why and I understood what I did in order to receive one. My parents later told me that every slap and punishment hurt "them as much as me" and I believe them because they still acted like they loved me...cared for me and nurtured me. Any of my parents showing open disappointment was the most crushing experience of my younger years and thats because I respected them and THEY were my role models.
Update today. Rolemodels come from the internet or the outside. Behavior, language and values are extracted from strangers who dont care for you but make you believe that they do. Of course this comes from an unrestricted unlimited access to the internet often because the parents dont know or understand the risks involved.
This is when I realized I am a "dinosaur" because of age. Times change and the society does too. Values and etiquette is vastly different to my own time and even tho I try to adapt the differences stand out making me realize I m old and the chasm only gets bigger. I dont advocate child "abuse" but I also am not willing to call every slap or blue mark abuse like society seems to do. I know from personal experience that physical punishment didnt kill or tainted me. I managed to become a responsible and accepted member of society. When I look around today and try to pinpoint the responsible factors for behavioral changes it mostly comes down to children and their upbringing.
Young kids raging on the internet are funny and entertaining (remember all the videos baiting with exactly that content) until those very same kids become adults, have NOT learned their lessons and become troublemakers....many even becoming parents themselves and transporting their misbehior to the next generation.
You encounter any random toxic internet user today and you can go back in time to a responsible factor. Most common in my days was a venting of frustration because of your job, your partner, even your kids or your life situation in general. I sure had "professional trolls" too but they were rare. People who got off on the misery of others trying to cause problems then sit back and observe mayhem. That has flipped almost 180 today where the drive-by trolling and flaming has become kind of a "handshake" exchange between total strangers and not good friends (who know how to take the "abuse"). If you speak up and call people out for their misbehavior something is wrong with "you" because you dont know how to take "it". I am worried because people who act like this on the internet increasingly act like this in real life as well. And if this persists the next generation will pick it up, make it their own and intensify it. Without corrective interference...mainly regulations this will become a real problem at some time in the future (where I m probably not alive anymore).
If you see movies from the 1950s you can observe urban neighbourhoods which were tidy, nice and filled with respectful people who lived together. Everything has its place, its role and rules were plenty and upheld (dont litter, dont cuss, act appropriately, cloth like a decent human being etc). I experienced a shadow of that in my own youth. Living conditions were not as tidy and my parents were not rich but overall people looked out for each other and rules were understood and respected. Today these movies appear like total fabrications or fantasy mainly because the actual reality is so far removed from those impressions....and thats not even a century back. Do I want to go back to a time without computers, without internet, with strict gender expectations and restrictions and overall contempt for race, color or sexual orientation? Give up my (pretty nice) car for the old Volkswagen Jetta I drove back as a teen? Cloth retro like in the 90s?
Hell NO!!!! But somehow people in general seem to believe that we got all the nice things we take for granted today automatically includes the rawness to each other and degeneration in society. Like better and bigger games absolutely HAVE TO have lootboxes and all kinds of shady business models cuz that the "prize" you pay for progress right? Thats not the case. I have an advantage because I experienced life without all the new things. Young kids today will not understand me or my point of view.
So full circle solid parenting is critical in how we shape our environment and society. Having kids is a big burden, not only monetary and taxing on your psyche but it also places responsibility on parents shoulders for the future. And right now we experience an actual future that was shaped by my generation or the one after that. Its easy to blame the parents but many fail to recognize that parents today have it much harder then our own had it mainly due to outside interference.
I get it...micro-management will not work. It never had. Humans are experts in finding the cracks or loopholes to get an advantage of any kind. So the more rules you put up the more resistence you earn. But those rules if upheld will provide a value model that people can accept and enforce themselves if it proves to be beneficial. I think a reminder or leading by example is the correct thing to do...but it wont prevent change. It just seems that today there is a lack of example or leadership and that void only accelerates the degeneration we observe.
Sure most people might find this place and think "oh, some old farts lamenting about how the old times were better....pfffft, total losers". But you know there could be the occasional person who is impressed with the restraint and civil behavior which is (mostly) upheld. Might even be impressed with some posts tone and elaboration. And they decide they want that too. Already a win in my book. I have been accused of "talking a lot" or creating "walls of text" for the hell of it. Instead its just that I severely lack the skill to pack information or reason into one-liners or short posts. Whenever I try it leads to misunderstandment or becomes a joke. So I "have to" put up the effort and time if I want to communicate effectively.
So you just be you. Just realize that you being "you" might rub off on other people and if you someday complain about rudeness or how people became harsher and dont care for each other you might want to remember that you were in part responsible for that development in your time when you "didnt care" or "just spoke the truth". When today I meet rude people who dont even realize that they are rude and in all innocense act like major jerks because they think its "normal" it makes me worry for the things to come. Already the (arguably) most powerful person in the world acts like a total and jerk in public and seems to not understand human decency on any level. Not chosing to not use it but doesnt seem to understand it on a basic level. Parents and environment. I fear for my life when I consider kids today taking him as their role-models.
Sorry for the off-topic.
So more regulations will probably not work. But no regulations result in chaos. You gonna find a middle ground/balance to enable living together. And the internet especially had too much of a lack of regulations since it was invented.
You are correct. I am not a scientist. I dont research these things but I speak from personal experience. I game, I interact on forums and I look around on the internet and I simply observe a degenration that is measurable. You dont have to take my posts or views as "facts". I dont expect you to. If you disagree sure, thats your forte. But I m not trying to sell my views as facts. They come from actual experiences and observations of myself. They certainly are "real" and not made-up to "win" this discussion. At best I try to share my opinion and ask for others in order to gauge if I m correct or not.
When you dont care for peoples age, gender, color of skin (really?) etc it doesnt mean that these things dont have an impact. I remember a lot of gaming sessions where my group or people in chat realized there is an ACTUAL FEMALE with them and how that little thing changed behavior to the worse. Thats an actual fact I observed many times. So how "you" specifically see things is mostly irrelevant when these factors do have an impact even if you didnt experience them yourself.
Yes they are. According to my own observations in various places and taking it from others who have similar views to me. You might think I simply "complain" ("droning" is the term?) or make up stuff and theres no way for me to prove it to you but that doesnt mean I lie.
Criminals, perverts, nasty people. They have always existed. I dont deny that but there is a difference in frequency and proportions compared to older generations. My view comes from more of 40 years of living. If people with a similar observation range can only report good things or deny any of my views I can only say that they have been exceptionally lucky to not run into these things as often as I do. I m sure other people have a more positive outlook then I do but just try to use the "worst case scenario".
If they are right..everythings a-okay.
If I am right...things will get worse.
You want to disregard eventualities and live with the consequences or prepare accordingly "just in case"?
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