Trading still useless. no high demand resources ever

After a few hours of searching in the Empire, I found a station that's Tantalum demand was high and a station one jump over who's supply was high. After grinding over a 100k a run (back and forth) for about an hour it dropped to medium demand.

There are stations out there with high demand, but you seem to forget that NPC's and other players (more so NPC's), will supply them with what high demand they require, which means on average you will find a lot more medium demands. In high traffic areas there will be a lot more low demands due to the sheer number of people supplying. Areas such as Sol and around.
 
I would be happy to make around 600cr/t , but I have not found anything that gives me that much, in fact some of the theoretically perfect routes I have found have ended up with me making a slight loss.

I have found systems within two jumps of each other, one exporting to the other with Med supply, but when I get to the other end I make a loss when I sell it.

Fair enough if it still needs time to even out though, this will be the second day since the tweak.

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Trading is fine if you know what you are doing.

No, its not, FD acknowledged there were issues and are no doubt keeping an eye on it since the change yesterday (or the day before, I cant remember when).
 
I have yet to see a High Demand station since about a week and thus I don't believe they exist (till I see one). That's not to say I don't think Med Demand isn't good enough, it "can" offer great profit.

My own inter system route is bringing in 54K in a 40 slot cobra, every 8-10 mins.
 
I am between 150 and 200 LY from Eranin and have no trouble finding stations with items in high demand. I have a route at the moment where I make ~850Cr/T in one direction and about 250Cr/T back. There is no doubt that trading is MUCH tougher in ED 1.0 than it was in Beta/Gamma but the profits are there if you can stand the initial search.
 
Was in high demand stations last night - look and you shall find

Would you be able to tell me the stats of that station?

Large / huge / small ?
Wealthy / standard / poor ?
Agriculture / industrial ?
Federal / empire / alliance / independent ?
Communist / anarchy / democracy ?

Also what kind of stuff was in HIGH demand? Metals / minerals / food ?

I am mostly tracking prices of illegal stuff and don't see demand changing at all
 
... Markets are being oversaturate by NPC's and broken beyond believe.
Correct, as well as margins are being reduced to a pittance.

In the past, large disparity between supply and demand was rare, but if you looked you could find it.

After Gamma 2.04, I saw no trade exceed 700CR profit-per-ton.
Since yesterday, I haven't seen any trade exceed 500 profit-per-ton.

I'll say it again, for those that aren't getting it: At the current profit rates, it will take hundreds of hours for new players to obtain better ships. It is not fun, it's punitive.

To FDEV: What is your current design goal for max profit per ton, for non-rare commodities? Please tell us, so our expectations can be met, and we can make informed decisions about whether or not we want to grind for hundreds of hours, or walk away.
 
Seeing profits of 867cr per tonne, one system over... I guess not all systems have recovered from the NPC deluge, but there's definitely money to be made.
 
Seeing profits of 867cr per tonne, one system over... I guess not all systems have recovered from the NPC deluge, but there's definitely money to be made.

No doubt about it, there is money to be made.

However, I still get confused by occurrences where all signs point to a station importing a product...
Galaxy map, commodities screen info etc.

When you get there, they have 5 million tonnes of the stuff to sell you dirt cheap.
But as above, its not as widespread as it was pre-release.
 
Not seen any high demand since the change, not checked any outposts for a few days though due to landing pad restrictions.
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Checking my notes and demand seems to be capped. Since NPC trading was reduced demand prices were rising very slowly for a while, but seem to be capped. Checked a number of huge wealthy stations with no / tiny amounts of PC traffic and demand has stayed the same and is identical in many other stations (Performance / Progenitor / Consumer tech seems to cap at medium demand at approximately 7040cr for example no matter how much is in demand).
 
But there is an issue people are not seeing.

Faction standings.

If you want to earn high standings with specific faction, you must either trade or do missions, or both. But you have to stay in one place, you can't really move away because you are working on your faction standings. Now in order to gain faction standings of Friendly through trading you must trade for 4.000.000 credits, if you trade at a loss, you loose faction standings (unless its been patched). If you are making a 50000 profit per run with Type 6, it will take a very, very long time to fill 4 million quota. So you are forced to run missions!


Market simulation is essential broken, every system I visited there are factions prospering in a middle of economic boom or expansion. Simulation should account for roughly 20% of all trading done in the game, rest must be done by players.
 
I've found that further out its easier to trade by smuggling.

Look for places selling weapons openly with decent supply levels (med or high), then take them to a nearby outpost with a black-market and you're in the money. I've found a reliable 700cr/t route selling personal weapons to a star 6ly away, then taking something like Tea back the other way. Still grinding up to a Type6 but right now in a Cobra its netting about 30K per round-trip.

How much Real World(tm) time this takes ?

On a Metalic asteroid field with major reserves, I can make 100K in about half an hour. More on a pristine one.
 
I am not really getting a problem although things are a lot tougher than they were in beta/gamma
There are more people trading now which tips things faster and the market has been tweaked some no doubt.
Instead of running 3 or 4 systems I am operating in 8 federation/independent systems.
I am finding some nice trades but nowhere near the easy street it used to be...seems more in line with other professions now
I only have 32 ton space but today I have been doing 20k round trips between two stations, later it will dry up and the search will begin again
 
No doubt about it, there is money to be made.

However, I still get confused by occurrences where all signs point to a station importing a product...
Galaxy map, commodities screen info etc.

When you get there, they have 5 million tonnes of the stuff to sell you dirt cheap.
But as above, its not as widespread as it was pre-release.

Yeah, understand that... I've been caught out by taking things to the wrong station in a system also. Also I've been trading the other way around - looking at stations with HIGH Demand, and seeing where I can get Med -> High Supply.
 
I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and say that I think when we saw the AI traders break the universal bank it's because they were seeing High Demand as an insistence to take something to somewhere, and the station Commoditiy Markets don't actually behave in the way a real market does, by adjusting their demand level based on the actual fulfilment.

With this type of mechanism in place the AI traders, working 24/7 and not being bothered by such stuff as work or beer or toilet stops, continued to stock up the stations that had a high demand to the point we witnessed in Gamma, where it was quite possible to purchase gold from a High Tech station that was supposed to be importing it, as the good old AI had delivered more than enough for it to spill into the Sales side.

Meanwhile, it still showed as High Demand, and those pesky AI just kept at it, like a London Banker fiddling the Libor ratings, oblivious to the damage they were doing.

The only thing that was being impacted was the Value of the gold, or whatever else the AI was shifting, because the markets were becoming saturated in surplus stuff, thus driving down the average prices.

To fix this problem, at least in the shorterm, it seems that nothing is High Demand anymore.

My suspicion, based on my, what could well be flawed, reasoning, is that whilst the AI is being giving a lesson in the finer workings of economics, beer and the usefulness of bathroom breaks to prevent it doing this again, is that all the High Demand stuff has been changed to Medium Demand, and the AI Trader is taking a break while the devilish minds of FD reprogram its "I" to make it a little more friendly.

The actual stuff that had been already stuck on the various markets is however still there, slowly being eaten by whatever fiendish station thing is there to maintain a need for a perticular commodity, but still being in a large enough quantity across the universe to maintain the lower average prices and also make it slightly harder to make a profit in some places. Note, only in some, because in some places there will be enough real Commanders buying stuff to clear the individual markets back to how they should be.

I'm basing this loose and perculiar theory on the fact that I keep stumbling on stations that have a Medium or Low Demand for Commodities that can be bought from them, and I'm a good few light years away from the main trade areas.

It does seem to be getting better, it just doesn't look like it's happening very quickly. Maybe it time for some AI Pirates that Only target AI Traders? Lots of them!
 
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If you want to earn high standings with specific faction, you must either trade or do missions, or both. But you have to stay in one place, you can't really move away because you are working on your faction standings.

Faction rep does play a big part in it yes, but minor factions are not isolated to single systems, unless I am mistaken.


Yeah, understand that... I've been caught out by taking things to the wrong station in a system also. Also I've been trading the other way around - looking at stations with HIGH Demand, and seeing where I can get Med -> High Supply.

It does pay to search around ;)
I do think they have missed a rule out or its not working as intended, allowing the background simulation to trade in a way in which we would normally lose out... buying high, selling low, that's the only way I can explain a consumer turning into a supplier.
 
Roll eyes...

Hi man, during Beta 3 gold averaged at above 10000 per ton.
During gamma gold averaged at about 9700 per ton.
Current galactic average for gold is 9300 credits.

If you are so lucky to find a high supply of gold, you can buy it up at around 8600-8700 credits per tone. Since that is impossible, you are left with profit margins of 200 credits per ton.

Markets are being oversaturate by NPC's and broken beyond believe.

Okey, apparently I just didn't notice that :)
I just look at the profits, and they have been going down significantly, I agree. But in my opinion they went back up again in the last few days, although they are nowhere near as they were before.

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But there is an issue people are not seeing.

Faction standings.

If you want to earn high standings with specific faction, you must either trade or do missions, or both. But you have to stay in one place, you can't really move away because you are working on your faction standings. Now in order to gain faction standings of Friendly through trading you must trade for 4.000.000 credits, if you trade at a loss, you loose faction standings (unless its been patched). If you are making a 50000 profit per run with Type 6, it will take a very, very long time to fill 4 million quota. So you are forced to run missions!


Market simulation is essential broken, every system I visited there are factions prospering in a middle of economic boom or expansion. Simulation should account for roughly 20% of all trading done in the game, rest must be done by players.

If NPCs only handle 20%, we have to do 80%, otherwise profits are just gonna skyrocket (and the people living in these systems are going to die, because they don't get their food^^). I say this, because there are so many systems, that there will never be enough players to satisfy the market in all of them. I guess the NPC trading has to be more flexible. So in systems where a lot of players do their trading, NPCs do less and vice versa. Essentially, we players trade what we want, and if there is anything left to trade or we don't trade enough, the npcs help out.
 
I havent found a station within about 12 LY of Sol that has anything in high demand...I think that is very hard to believe

Why do you expect the centre of the Federation to be in demand for anything? It has 000's of systems close by producing everything, masses of trade heading to the centre

Choose a better territory to trade through, and 12LY is a walk in the park

Look at trade routes 50+ LY and don't be fixated on high demand. You make credits off a high margin and High margin can result from Medium Demand price minus a High Supply price.
 
Okey, apparently I just didn't notice that :)
I just look at the profits, and they have been going down significantly, I agree. But in my opinion they went back up again in the last few days, although they are nowhere near as they were before.
Before you had a guaranteed profit margin of 300-600 credits per ton on most commodities that cost over about 2000 credits. Expensive commodities like gold, silver, palladium could net you up to 1500 credits per ton. Now I only seen 130-200 credits profit margin on most commodities. I don't even bother to load up my cobra with progenitor cells any more as I only make 170 credits per ton.

If NPCs only handle 20%, we have to do 80%, otherwise profits are just gonna skyrocket (and the people living in these systems are going to die, because they don't get their food^^). I say this, because there are so many systems, that there will never be enough players to satisfy the market in all of them. I guess the NPC trading has to be more flexible. So in systems where a lot of players do their trading, NPCs do less and vice versa. Essentially, we players trade what we want, and if there is anything left to trade or we don't trade enough, the npcs help out.

Those 20% is what keeping a system operational, it what's keeping it stable. If you want change and expansion you have to contribute to by hauling goods and doing missions. Not the way we have right now, every system in economic boom and expansion set, all market need satisfied without player input. BORING, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Players don't trade what they want, they trade in what gives greatest profit margin per ton.
 
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