Newcomer / Intro Turn Rate problems

[Lithari]

Hiya,

I have been having trouble with combat in this game, watching videos just makes it worse for me, they say to roll and pull up, its faster then just turning left or right, but it just seems the same to me and don't get me started on the whole Flight Assist, turning that off just causes me to go into rolls, totally useless.

What i want to know is, how the hell do you keep the target in front of you most of the time, it feels like all ship types, unless its THAT slow in general tend to stay behind me and rip me to pieces, which results in me just quiting the game.

The fighting is more fun then the boring trading and equally as boring exploring, but the turning while fighting seems impossible to do and anything suggested tends to never help, using the thrusters to move up and down don't help at all, the speed of turning the ship is exactly the same with or without it.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[dryjoy]

Do you have your throttle in the blue zone when you are pulling up or down on your stick? If not, make sure you do.

 

[Kuroshio]

Moved here from another thread:

For basic combat maneuvering, simply try to get your target somewhere on your vertical axis and pitch up or down (no negative g-forces to deal with), whatever's faster to get it in front of you. Use your vertical thrusters to push you into the circle for a tighter turn (less/equally maneuverable opponents) or to push you out of it (to increase your distance to more maneuverable opponents).

Important: That won't affect your turn rate as much as it affects your turn radius. With smaller, nimbler opponents, outturning is obviously not an option, with those, only an excess of energy will help so you can keep a distance of your choosing. An Eagle's maneuverability won't help it if you're able to keep it in the firing arc of a heavier ship.

There's a huge amount of advanced stuff, but for NPC fighting up to a certain size and rank, that's the basic and reliable way to deal with them. There's a certain amount of rock-paper-scissors with speed, maneuverability, firepower and toughness that more experienced combat pilots can write (and have written) books on.

 

[Lithari]

Do you have your throttle in the blue zone when you are pulling up or down on your stick? If not, make sure you do.

Moved here from another thread:

For basic combat maneuvering, simply try to get your target somewhere on your vertical axis and pitch up or down (no negative g-forces to deal with), whatever's faster to get it in front of you. Use your vertical thrusters to push you into the circle for a tighter turn (less/equally maneuverable opponents) or to push you out of it (to increase your distance to more maneuverable opponents).

Important: That won't affect your turn rate as much as it affects your turn radius. With smaller, nimbler opponents, outturning is obviously not an option, with those, only an excess of energy will help so you can keep a distance of your choosing. An Eagle's maneuverability won't help it if you're able to keep it in the firing arc of a heavier ship.

There's a huge amount of advanced stuff, but for NPC fighting up to a certain size and rank, that's the basic and reliable way to deal with them. There's a certain amount of rock-paper-scissors with speed, maneuverability, firepower and toughness that more experienced combat pilots can write (and have written) books on.

I always make sure to turn while my throttle is in the blue zone, the problem is, i have tried many ways, using my up and down thrusters to speed up turning or whatever it is to get me in firing position of the enemy ship, i mean i don't want to be a min-max type of player, i just want to get it done, perfection is not important to me.

I know going up and down is faster then going left and right, but even when doing this, while in sidewinder, the ships are always still in firing position, i know, the eagle doesn't count cause well, it is too nimble as you have said, but vipers, cobras and so on have the same problem and i just don't get it at all.

The only ships that are easier to get into position are the slower ones, like cargo ships and anacondas, not sure why i would go after those....but i am just pointing it out.

 

[Dommarraa]

It's a bit hard to tell where you are going wrong, so forgive me stating the obvious. Even flying an asp with keyboard only, using pitch and roll only, nothing ever gets behind me. An Eagle can stay out of my sights if he wants, but will eventually give up the turn.
Stay in the blue. For a brief bit if extra turn go to the lower part of the blue
Get gimbled weapons
Over rolling and generally not having control of your ship when using mouse or joystick? I can't use them either. Try the keyboard, you get great control although you won't have the fingers for the advanced pvp flight styles
Try full reverse if they are on your tail.

 

[ollydoyle]

My own opservations

I've been playing since the start, alpha stage, and had a long bit in the middle where I wasn't play, came back for version 1.0 forward. I find the flight model, the manner in which the ship move hasn't changed too much since the beginning. So your problem may be ship specific, i haven't flown them all, there are sliders in the control options that affect dead zones, and ramping of force on each of the axis, that might be worth looking at?
Also, I use the thrusters a lot while fighting, if someone is trying to loop around to my rear, I move down, while pulling up with on forward at all, which seem to work good. If some is behind me I'll do the same with full reverse thrust. The last few days iv'e been bounty hunting at a Resource Extraction Site, earning 300-500 k/h. There a good place to improve you skill, the Police can do most of the hard work, letting you practice where to try a keep your ship in relation with a pirate, i find some ships have blind spots. Also if it goes wrong you can hind behind a asteroid to recharge shields, the area i work even has a full size dock .20ls away for repair and claims

Hope this helps, Olly

 

[Lithari]

It's a bit hard to tell where you are going wrong, so forgive me stating the obvious. Even flying an asp with keyboard only, using pitch and roll only, nothing ever gets behind me. An Eagle can stay out of my sights if he wants, but will eventually give up the turn.
Stay in the blue. For a brief bit if extra turn go to the lower part of the blue
Get gimbled weapons
Over rolling and generally not having control of your ship when using mouse or joystick? I can't use them either. Try the keyboard, you get great control although you won't have the fingers for the advanced pvp flight styles
Try full reverse if they are on your tail.

I tried it with the joystick and i just couldn't get it working right, its likely the joystick or my dimished space sim skills, but then again, i haven't played a space sim with newtonian physics since Independence War 2, so obviously, i have gotten rusty at it.

Wouldn't going at the lower range of the blue zone make me turn.....slower?

Also, trying to go full reverse.....they are still behind me....likely doing the same thing. lol

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I've been playing since the start, alpha stage, and had a long bit in the middle where I wasn't play, came back for version 1.0 forward. I find the flight model, the manner in which the ship move hasn't changed too much since the beginning. So your problem may be ship specific, i haven't flown them all, there are sliders in the control options that affect dead zones, and ramping of force on each of the axis, that might be worth looking at?
Also, I use the thrusters a lot while fighting, if someone is trying to loop around to my rear, I move down, while pulling up with on forward at all, which seem to work good. If some is behind me I'll do the same with full reverse thrust. The last few days iv'e been bounty hunting at a Resource Extraction Site, earning 300-500 k/h. There a good place to improve you skill, the Police can do most of the hard work, letting you practice where to try a keep your ship in relation with a pirate, i find some ships have blind spots. Also if it goes wrong you can hind behind a asteroid to recharge shields, the area i work even has a full size dock .20ls away for repair and claims

Hope this helps, Olly

I have tried that, the whole thruster thing and it really didn't feel different at all, so i must have been doing it wrong.....when it comes to the deadzones, i never really messed with it.

 

[Dommarraa]

In theory, lower blue should be worse, but if I am in a deadlock turning battle, slowing down does get them in my sights and at least cause them to break off the turn

 

[who?]

Lots of little things can help.

- Keep throttle in the blue.
- Divert power to engines/thrusters.
- When you and the other craft are making a head-on pass, slow down (or even stop, and divert half power to shields, half power to weapons) to give you more shooting time.
- Flight Assist Offing (which I'm going to call FAFFing, for laziness reasons) can help a lot. If your target flies past you, roll so he's "above" you (i.e. the top of the sensor screen) then pull back hard, FAFF, and max throttle (the blue zone doesn't apply to FAFFing). You'll probably start to roll one way and the other, so just correct for that so your target stays "above" you. When you get it right, you can switch ends and be back on his tail in maybe 2-3 seconds. Flight Assist On ("FAN"?) and throttle back into the blue and fire. When you're flying back through your own exhaust trails, you know you've done it right.
- If you don't have gimballed weapons, buy them now. Yes, fixed weapons do more damage, but only if they hit something. It takes a lot of the frustration away. I've found a couple of gimballed multicannons on the top hardpoints (Viper) can swivel surprisingly high up so you don't have to get the target dead-centre.

Remember too, you don't have to dogfight "airplane" style. Often I end up stopped and just sliding/strafing around my target. Obviously then it helps if you have better guns/shields/much better maneuverability. I'm not really sure about the positive / lateral G-forces. I think the main reason aircraft roll & pitch rather than yawing to turn quickly is for aerodynamic reasons (yawing violently is going to send air across the wings and control surfaces at weird angles of attack, and the fuselage would likely disrupt the airflow to the outer wing) - which obviously don't apply in Elite... until they add atmospheric flying! Bar lateral / vertical G-force discomfort for the pilot, the craft in Elite should yaw as quick as they can pitch.

 

[Lithari]

Lots of little things can help.

- Keep throttle in the blue.
- Divert power to engines/thrusters.
- When you and the other craft are making a head-on pass, slow down (or even stop, and divert half power to shields, half power to weapons) to give you more shooting time.
- Flight Assist Offing (which I'm going to call FAFFing, for laziness reasons) can help a lot. If your target flies past you, roll so he's "above" you (i.e. the top of the sensor screen) then pull back hard, FAFF, and max throttle (the blue zone doesn't apply to FAFFing). You'll probably start to roll one way and the other, so just correct for that so your target stays "above" you. When you get it right, you can switch ends and be back on his tail in maybe 2-3 seconds. Flight Assist On ("FAN"?) and throttle back into the blue and fire. When you're flying back through your own exhaust trails, you know you've done it right.
- If you don't have gimballed weapons, buy them now. Yes, fixed weapons do more damage, but only if they hit something. It takes a lot of the frustration away. I've found a couple of gimballed multicannons on the top hardpoints (Viper) can swivel surprisingly high up so you don't have to get the target dead-centre.

Remember too, you don't have to dogfight "airplane" style. Often I end up stopped and just sliding/strafing around my target. Obviously then it helps if you have better guns/shields/much better maneuverability. I'm not really sure about the positive / lateral G-forces. I think the main reason aircraft roll & pitch rather than yawing to turn quickly is for aerodynamic reasons (yawing violently is going to send air across the wings and control surfaces at weird angles of attack, and the fuselage would likely disrupt the airflow to the outer wing) - which obviously don't apply in Elite... until they add atmospheric flying! Bar lateral / vertical G-force discomfort for the pilot, the craft in Elite should yaw as quick as they can pitch.

I have tried turning off the flight assist mode and it just causes me to go into a roll, i counter it and i go into a roll again....so i keep the thing on, if its something i have to turn off to do anything, i will move onto something else....the only time when i don't have a problem is when they are targeting someone else, which kinda defeats the purpose of it.

 

[Gold Member]

Simple tips:

You turn faster when your speed is in the blue zone.
Turn off flight assist - when it is on it automatically counter thrusts a little to keep your ship stable. Keyboard binding should be the 'z' key to turn it on/off.
You turn faster up/down than left/right, so use all 3 dimensions and pull up at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, or push down at 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock to get your target in your sights.
Try to leave at least one pip in Engines so your afterburners will recharge and your top potential speed stays higher - but depending on your adversary you may need to keep switching pips between weapons and engines. If they burn away to try and escape or reset their position in the fight, you'll need to have some capacitor energy in engines to keep up.

 

[Lithari]

Simple tips:

You turn faster when your speed is in the blue zone.
Turn off flight assist - when it is on it automatically counter thrusts a little to keep your ship stable. Keyboard binding should be the 'z' key to turn it on/off.
You turn faster up/down than left/right, so use all 3 dimensions and pull up at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, or push down at 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock to get your target in your sights.
Try to leave at least one pip in Engines so your afterburners will recharge and your top potential speed stays higher - but depending on your adversary you may need to keep switching pips between weapons and engines. If they burn away to try and escape or reset their position in the fight, you'll need to have some capacitor energy in engines to keep up.

I have tried, the thrusters to lift up and go down do nothing to speed up the turns at all, it just makes it move up or down, it never speeds up the turns, it makes no difference, i have seen loads of videos of other people playing it and i see all they do and it just feels impossible to do, this is a good game, bounty hunting is fun and shooting the targets is easy, as long as i am not my targets' target, otherwise forget it, i might as well just stand still.....same effect.......i get shot at.

 

[kilvenny]

Control the fight - if you are not in control its time to retreat - get separation between you and your opponent and start again.

The keys to control the fight.
1) Timing - choose the moment to attack and make it decisive.
2) Be able to transfer pips quickly from shields to weapons to engines.
3) Be able to switch speed (blue zone) and boost
4) Understand pitch, roll and yaw characteristics (dead zones)
5) Understand the various combinations of 2), 3) and 4)

Pick on the harmless npc pilots to build your confidence up, forget about the kill, but use it as an opportunity to try out the above.

I tend to target from distance, get above and behind. Max pips to engines and boost on to target. Just over 3km out deploy hardpoints and switch pips to weapons and fire. Then its a case of reacting to what happens next. Head on is usually not a great idea as its attrition.

 

[Gold Member]

I have tried, the thrusters to lift up and go down do nothing to speed up the turns at all, it just makes it move up or down, it never speeds up the turns, it makes no difference, i have seen loads of videos of other people playing it and i see all they do and it just feels impossible to do, this is a good game, bounty hunting is fun and shooting the targets is easy, as long as i am not my targets' target, otherwise forget it, i might as well just stand still.....same effect.......i get shot at.

A couple of things.

Are you using a flight controller/joystick or keyboard/mouse combo? If you're using a controller of some sort you might need to ESC - CONTROLS and up the sensitivity a bit. Others might be able to help you adjust your deadzone. I only use kb/mouse.

Are you constantly adjusting your speed? Dogfighting isn't going to be successful if you try to keep the same speed.

There is a lag (inertia) between dropping your speed and quicker turning.

You aren't going to be able to keep ANY target in your cockpit windows at all times no matter what you're flying. Using the map to keep an eye on the target location helps. The red <,> indicator on the area map will adjust according to their location - of course they are moving too so it may take you a few seconds to get them back in view. If they are completely engaged with you try flying in a figure 8 in 3-dimensions. By completely engaged I mean they are only targeting you and not switching between security ships and yours. The figure 8 will break most donut-fights.

Play the game solo for a bit. AI is pretty stupid (watch for the suicide ram) and stay close to LHS 3447 or Evarate as you're less likely to encounter anything bigger than an eagle and most of them will be rated in the harmless range.

If you're going to learn how to dogfight put a chaff launcher on your ship. Add an armor or shield buff, get rid of cargo space, upgrade your thrusters and shields. Upgrade your power source and your power distribution. Those things help a LOT. Getting rid of unnecessary modules will mean at least your ship weight isn't occupied by things that can't help you fight.

While some people don't have a problem getting kills in a stock sidewinder, the mechanics of the game might be tougher for others.

 

[Lithari]

Control the fight - if you are not in control its time to retreat - get separation between you and your opponent and start again.

The keys to control the fight.
1) Timing - choose the moment to attack and make it decisive.
2) Be able to transfer pips quickly from shields to weapons to engines.
3) Be able to switch speed (blue zone) and boost
4) Understand pitch, roll and yaw characteristics (dead zones)
5) Understand the various combinations of 2), 3) and 4)

Pick on the harmless npc pilots to build your confidence up, forget about the kill, but use it as an opportunity to try out the above.

I tend to target from distance, get above and behind. Max pips to engines and boost on to target. Just over 3km out deploy hardpoints and switch pips to weapons and fire. Then its a case of reacting to what happens next. Head on is usually not a great idea as its attrition.

one of the problems with this game is the fact that the only harmless targets are clean, so i get a bounty on my head.....all wanted targets tend to be competent or higher.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

A couple of things.

Are you using a flight controller/joystick or keyboard/mouse combo? If you're using a controller of some sort you might need to ESC - CONTROLS and up the sensitivity a bit. Others might be able to help you adjust your deadzone. I only use kb/mouse.

Are you constantly adjusting your speed? Dogfighting isn't going to be successful if you try to keep the same speed.

There is a lag (inertia) between dropping your speed and quicker turning.

You aren't going to be able to keep ANY target in your cockpit windows at all times no matter what you're flying. Using the map to keep an eye on the target location helps. The red <,> indicator on the area map will adjust according to their location - of course they are moving too so it may take you a few seconds to get them back in view. If they are completely engaged with you try flying in a figure 8 in 3-dimensions. By completely engaged I mean they are only targeting you and not switching between security ships and yours. The figure 8 will break most donut-fights.

Play the game solo for a bit. AI is pretty stupid (watch for the suicide ram) and stay close to LHS 3447 or Evarate as you're less likely to encounter anything bigger than an eagle and most of them will be rated in the harmless range.

If you're going to learn how to dogfight put a chaff launcher on your ship. Add an armor or shield buff, get rid of cargo space, upgrade your thrusters and shields. Upgrade your power source and your power distribution. Those things help a LOT. Getting rid of unnecessary modules will mean at least your ship weight isn't occupied by things that can't help you fight.

While some people don't have a problem getting kills in a stock sidewinder, the mechanics of the game might be tougher for others.

you are wrong there, i encountered anacondas as well as the skil levels tend to be competent or higher, all the harmless ones are clean.

 

[EvulKlowne]

Don't be afraid of usinf Flight Assist Off. It works wonders to get an enemy in your sights during a turn, but do switch it back on as soon as you get the enemy back in your sights because you can't really aim while in FA off+absolute mouse.

This is how I do it:
I have FA toggle on one of my mouse thumb buttons
A and D are roll, and pitch and yaw are on the mouse
Space is bound to 50% throttle

As soon as I see I can't make the turn tight enough to get the enemy in my sights (despite having throttle in the blue zone) I toggle FA off.
Then I primarily use pitch (up) and a bit of roll (don't overdo the roll) to get the enemy quickly back in front of me.
Then I quickly toggle FA back to on (this will stabilize my ship), immediately followed by hitting space to bring my throttle back in the blue zone.
Now you can aim and shoot.

This works every time!

 

[Lithari]

Don't be afraid of usinf Flight Assist Off. It works wonders to get an enemy in your sights during a turn, but do switch it back on as soon as you get the enemy back in your sights because you can't really aim while in FA off+absolute mouse.

This is how I do it:
I have FA toggle on one of my mouse thumb buttons
A and D are roll, and pitch and yaw are on the mouse
Space is bound to 50% throttle

As soon as I see I can't make the turn tight enough to get the enemy in my sights (despite having throttle in the blue zone) I toggle FA off.
Then I primarily use pitch (up) and a bit of roll (don't overdo the roll) to get the enemy quickly back in front of me.
Then I quickly toggle FA back to on (this will stabilize my ship), immediately followed by hitting space to bring my throttle back in the blue zone.
Now you can aim and shoot.

This works every time!

I have tried that, it doesn't speed anything up at all, i might be doing it wrong, all it does is keep me going in the direction i was going when i turned it off, turning isn't speeded up by it....for me, when i try this, the AI is already behind me again or just get behind me again, i repeat it, the same thing happens again, by this time, i am practically dead.

 

[kilvenny]

@Lithari
Strange your targets are only competent and above. I saw harmless/mostly harmless targets at the Nav Beacon I was at last night. I am in a Sidewinder but I didnt think the spawning was linked to ship type. Looking at your last comment to EvulKlowne I wonder if you are anticipating a much sharper turn than is possible and therefore not gaining enough separation to allow you to make the turn in time. Even a Sidewinder is quite a large ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

 

[Lithari]

@Lithari
Strange your targets are only competent and above. I saw harmless/mostly harmless targets at the Nav Beacon I was at last night. I am in a Sidewinder but I didnt think the spawning was linked to ship type. Looking at your last comment to EvulKlowne I wonder if you are anticipating a much sharper turn than is possible and therefore not gaining enough separation to allow you to make the turn in time. Even a Sidewinder is quite a large ship and it doesn't turn on a dime.

Its weird, only the wanted ones are competent and above, the clean targets are the lower ratings, i guess its like the bulletin boards....some people it gives all the good stuff, others the impossible or crap stuff.

 

[kilvenny]

Very weird - I have never had any problem finding low ranked targets - although I do go after more experienced ones as well!