Upcoming C&P - How Much Should My Death Cost to Make you Happy?

[MadDogMurdock]

Just saying it doesn't make it so.

There's some hypocrisy is the air!!

So ok, explain it to me then.
How is using a mechanism to avoid travelling 22000LY not an exploit?

Kofeyh has attempted to justify it and failed in my eyes.
On the scale of exploits this is small fry compared to others but an exploit nonetheless.
Yes, the Sidie insurance option needs to exist, to stop players being stuck at a location without sufficient jump range, but that doesn't justify using it to shortcut travel.
The cost of transferring ships is irrelevant - the player using the exploit has already factored that in and decided that it's less cost than travelling 22000LY in that ship.

Everyone is super hot on condemning the Engineer exploit, but small things like this is how people start to justify it to themselves.

Sidie death to shortcut travel or remove a bounty is an exploit.
Mode switching to gather materials or refresh the mission board is an exploit.
Mission stacking where the same objective completes multiple missions from the same faction is an exploit.
and so on

Different levels of severity, but the theme is the same.
Ways to shortcut or avoid gameplay are exploits.

You can make an argument that pieces of gameplay are grindy or boring or unrewarding.
You can make an argument that FD should be better at design, coding, and testing.

None of that changes the fact, these shortcuts are all exploits.
There is no argument, only personal justification that makes some of them ok.
Which ones depends on the player and what they can live with.
Some of them I've used myself, but at least I admit that they are exploits.

 

[Muzz UK]

What happens when you get killed by a CMDR in a ship that costs him relative peanuts?

I keep running this question by folks, but either my posts are being missed, or just ignored. So I'll ask the question here.

I'll start with the caveat: I'm not a ganker. I've killed a few CMDRs here and there, but for the most part I just leave peaceful folks alone, and even enjoy tossing an o7 peoples' way when I happen upon them.

With the recent C&P announcement, I get the impression (early on, mind you) that CMDRs feel the hefty rebuys involved are going to help keep them safe from other CMDRs. But I have to ask (and Sandro specifically mentioned this in his announcement) - what if I were to just hop in a cheap ship and kill you at the CG? I have small, inexpensive ships that are monsters compared to some of the PvE dedicated ships I've met at CGs. Would you be satisfied with the consequences for me were I to take down your expensive hauler in my 400k Cr rebuy viper? I have lots of money, what if I decided to do it in my massively overpowered Python? Will the 8M Cr rebuy satisfy you, even if it's a drop in the bucket for me?

Would like to hear your thoughts.

Good point OP but in theory in a smaller ship commanders will have more of chance to escape or fight back.

If your in your Type 6 and Vette commander McEngineered melts you those large/huge guns waste you in seconds. Ok an engineered asp or eagle hits hard too but at least this balances things a bit more in favour of the unarmed inexperienced guy... wel I hope it does

 

[kofeyh]

There's some hypocrisy is the air!!

So ok, explain it to me then.
How is using a mechanism to avoid travelling 22000LY not an exploit?

Kofeyh has attempted to justify it and failed in my eyes.
On the scale of exploits this is small fry compared to others but an exploit nonetheless.
Yes, the Sidie insurance option needs to exist, to stop players being stuck at a location without sufficient jump range, but that doesn't justify using it to shortcut travel.
The cost of transferring ships is irrelevant - the player using the exploit has already factored that in and decided that it's less cost than travelling 22000LY in that ship.

Everyone is super hot on condemning the Engineer exploit, but small things like this is how people start to justify it to themselves.

Sidie death to shortcut travel or remove a bounty is an exploit.
Mode switching to gather materials or refresh the mission board is an exploit.
Mission stacking where the same objective completes multiple missions from the same faction is an exploit.
and so on

Different levels of severity, but the theme is the same.
Ways to shortcut or avoid gameplay are exploits.

You can make an argument that pieces of gameplay are grindy or boring or unrewarding.
You can make an argument that FD should be better at design, coding, and testing.

None of that changes the fact, these shortcuts are all exploits.
There is no argument, only personal justification that makes some of them ok.
Which ones depends on the player and what they can live with.
Some of them I've used myself, but at least I admit that they are exploits.

If several million to several BILLION to transfer a ship over 20+ kylies isn't enough of a cost, with 60+ hours of delay isn't enough of an offset, what on earth is?

You can't ignore that simply because it doesn't suit your headcanon. It's a factual part of the game mechanics. If you decide to teleport, over vast differences, there is an implicit cost. I don't care if you believe that's irrelevant or not. Either you lose on transfer costs. Or you lose on hull sale. Or you lose on engineered modules when sold.

TINSTAAFL.

Millions of credits. Or more. And 3 days of delay. Or loss of hull on sale. Or loss of engineered modules if sold. That's the facts, mate. Ignore them all you like. I don't care. I literally do not care in the slightest. That's absolutely a massive massive cost. The very least it will cost is 20% of any ships hull, and the loss of any engineered modules sold. Transferring either a ship or it's constituent modules is horrifically expensive and takes DAYS.

It sounds to me like you haven't actually thought about this much. And simply jumped to conclusions. Teleport bad. No teleport good. Ignore the nontrivial costs! Nothing to see here. Move along.

lol. Righto.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

If several million to several BILLION to transfer a ship over 20+ kylies isn't enough of a cost, with 60+ hours of delay isn't enough of an offset, what on earth is?

You can't ignore that simply because it doesn't suit your headcanon. It's a factual part of the game mechanics. If you decide to teleport, over vast differences, there is an implicit cost. I don't care if you believe that's irrelevant or not.

Millions of credits. Or more. And 3 days of delay. That's the facts, mate. Ignore them all you like. I don't care. I literally do not care in the slightest. That's absolutely a massive massive cost. The very least it will cost is 20% of any ships hull, and the loss of all engineered modules.

It sounds to me like you haven't actually thought about this much. And simply jumped to conclusions.

No, you're just using the cost as a justification to 'offset' the benefit.
Tell me exactly the reason why you do it, not the reason why you think it's ok, and it'll be self-evident that this is an exploit.

Saying that it's a factual mechanic is a false justification on your part.
That option exists for a different reason and this is an unintended consequence. Most exploits are.

Didn't your mom tell you "just because you can, it doesn't mean that you should"

 

[Leper Messiah]

What I don't understand is this, all commanders are in the Pilots Federation correct? Now what current real organisation tolerates it's members that abuses other members? Not many no doubt.

So put in some way for PvPs to arrange fair fights if they wish, then have a system where once a commander has accumulated enough infractions regarding killing other commanders (I'd like to think a system that calculates the difference in offensive and defensive capabilities would be fair but god knows how easy it would be to implement) have the "bad" commander dumped by the Federation and then they become lawless, but can't trade or dock at any lawfull space stations...ever and no insurance.....ever Full rebuys for them. Play the criminal psychopath, suffer the consequences.

 

[Herbrand]

In a game where anyone in a Sidewinder can make up to 70M / hour, this first slice of C&P does almost nothing.

What I don't understand is this, all commanders are in the Pilots Federation correct? Now what current real organisation tolerates it's members that abuses other members? Not many no doubt.

We agree on more than one subject, I see!

 

[kofeyh]

No, you're just using the cost as a justification to 'offset' the benefit.
Tell me exactly the reason why you do it, not the reason why you think it's ok, and it'll be self-evident that this is an exploit.

Saying that it's a factual mechanic is a false justification on your part.
That option exists for a different reason and this is an unintended consequence. Most exploits are.

Didn't your mom tell you "just because you can, it doesn't mean that you should"

She didn't. My dad did. He told me I wouldn't amount to anything and I was in a dead end job. He was mistaken. Imagine if you were, too?

I'm not going to agree with you, so trying to hand wave away actual mechanics in the game that exist as consequences of electing a starter sidewinder is probably a gigantic waste of time on your part. And mine.

Respectfully disagree. Fly safe. o7

 

[xaisis]

I think a bounty for murder should be something like 50% of killers rebuy + 50% of the victims rebuy.

 

[KING5TON]

IMO. Enough that it stings.
So it stings just as much as it does as it did the victims of the crime.
i.e. if they've got to pay the full rebuy cost of their ship then you should pay the cost of yours rather than cheating the system by jumping in a sidewinder and then dying.

Up to this change being implemented people have cheated the system. That cheat is being closed. By complaining about the cheat being closed you're just exposing yourself as a cheater. Just stop cheating.

If you want to live the life of crime then you need to live with the consequences. When the proposes C&P changes come into force you will actually have some consequences rather than the zero you have now.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

There's some hypocrisy is the air!!

So ok, explain it to me then.
How is using a mechanism to avoid travelling 22000LY not an exploit?

Kofeyh has attempted to justify it and failed in my eyes.
On the scale of exploits this is small fry compared to others but an exploit nonetheless.
Yes, the Sidie insurance option needs to exist, to stop players being stuck at a location without sufficient jump range, but that doesn't justify using it to shortcut travel.
The cost of transferring ships is irrelevant - the player using the exploit has already factored that in and decided that it's less cost than travelling 22000LY in that ship.

Everyone is super hot on condemning the Engineer exploit, but small things like this is how people start to justify it to themselves.

Sidie death to shortcut travel or remove a bounty is an exploit.
Mode switching to gather materials or refresh the mission board is an exploit.
Mission stacking where the same objective completes multiple missions from the same faction is an exploit.
and so on

Different levels of severity, but the theme is the same.
Ways to shortcut or avoid gameplay are exploits.

You can make an argument that pieces of gameplay are grindy or boring or unrewarding.
You can make an argument that FD should be better at design, coding, and testing.

None of that changes the fact, these shortcuts are all exploits.
There is no argument, only personal justification that makes some of them ok.
Which ones depends on the player and what they can live with.
Some of them I've used myself, but at least I admit that they are exploits.

Because it's working as intended. FD give us the option of taking a free sidewinder instead of a rebuy. It has been that way since the beginning, and it is intended design. Location has never played a role in it, nor have FD ever said it is supposed to.

You can self destruct at beagle point and instantly be transported back to the bubble in the same ship with the same engineer mods, or take the free sidewinder. Again, working as intended.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Because it's working as intended. FD give us the option of taking a free sidewinder instead of a rebuy. It has been that way since the beginning, and it is intended design. Location has never played a role in it, nor have FD ever said it is supposed to.

You can self destruct at beagle point and instantly be transported back to the bubble in the same ship with the same engineer mods, or take the free sidewinder. Again, working as intended.

You're confusing implementation with design.
The free sidewinder option was intended for when you can't pay the insurance on the hull of your ship. The fact that you can choose it whether you have the money or not is an oversight on FDs part.
The reason that option transports to the start location is to avoid getting stuck somewhere with insufficient jump range in a stock sidewinder, not as an intended implementation of instant pilot transport.

The quick transport route back from Colonia is definitely an unintended consequence, not deliberate design.

Anyway, I'm done discussing it. I'll self-deny using it because it's an exploit, others can self-deny that it's an exploit at all.

 

[KING5TON]

You're confusing implementation with design.
The free sidewinder option was intended for when you can't pay the insurance on the hull of your ship. The fact that you can choose it whether you have the money or not is an oversight on FDs part.
The reason that option transports to the start location is to avoid getting stuck somewhere with insufficient jump range in a stock sidewinder, not as an intended implementation of instant pilot transport.

The quick transport route back from Colonia is definitely an unintended consequence, not deliberate design.

Anyway, I'm done discussing it. I'll self-deny using it because it's an exploit, others can self-deny that it's an exploit at all.

Doesn't it cost you the ship rebuy cost?

I.e.

I fly out to Colonia.
I do not dock as docking will mean I respawn there after dying.
I kill myself and respawn back at the bubble.
I select the free sidewinder and loose the ship I was flying.

Is that how it needs to work?
If so it's a crap exploit

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Doesn't it cost you the ship rebuy cost?

I.e.

I fly out to Colonia.
I do not dock as docking will mean I respawn there after dying.
I kill myself and respawn back at the bubble.
I select the free sidewinder and loose the ship I was flying.

Is that how it needs to work?
If so it's a crap exploit

That isn't what people are doing.
They are docking their ship and switching to a Sidewinder.
Suiciding that, and then choosing the option that spawns them back in the bubble.

This strands the original ship in Colonia.
As exploits go it's fairly trivial, but it's still an exploit to avoid travelling back 22000LY.

 

[Knightshark]

That isn't what people are doing.
They are docking their ship and switching to a Sidewinder.
Suiciding that, and then choosing the option that spawns them back in the bubble.

This strands the original ship in Colonia.
As exploits go it's fairly trivial, but it's still an exploit to avoid travelling back 22000LY.

You can see the ship before suicidewinding.

 

[NeilF]

I think financial penalties are only one avenue that should be taken, but TBH the less effective approach.

I think if you are habiltually illegally destroying CMDRs (& NPCs) in any system type, then as your reputation gets more and more negative a number of penalties are brought to bear against you. eg:-

• More and more stations deny you docking: Initially stations will comment your negative reputation, but if you carry on with your psychotic haviour they will deny you access.
• More and more systems deny you a permit to even go there.
• A permanent bounty is on you: Any other CMDR can now legally attack you.
• You are highlighted as a know psycho to any/all other CMDRs: How is it a good thing you don't even know the CMDR next to you a habitual psycho?

The idea is not to stamp out illegal destruction, but to rein it in and simply make it accountable. Illegally destroy a couple of other CMDRs? Fine... You'll probably be overlooked. Make a full time occupation out of it? Then prepare to be treated like the psycho you are!

The system should be simple... Having loads of ifs/buts and complicated maybes in there is not idea.

 

[Jmanis]

Sidie death to shortcut travel or remove a bounty is an exploit.

Bit of a non-sequitur, but I'm still not clear on how suicidewinding works to "clear" a bounty? Maybe I need it spelt out for me, but this is my understanding:
1. I get a bounty on my head.
2a. Blammo, I'm dead (sidewinder or no). Bounty becomes Dormant Bounty.
OR
2b. 7 days tick over, and bounty becomes Dormant Bounty.
3a. I commit another crime where I have the Dormant bounty, bounty becomes active, goto 1.
OR
3b. Dormant bounty stays dormant for 7 days. Becomes a legacy fine.
4. Legacy fines remain *permanently* until you pay it off; or
*. Any time you are destroyed and respawn in the station where the Bounty/Fine/Legacy Fine would be payable, it comes out of your credit balance at rebuy.

This leads into my next statement, which is that it's a bit of a slippery slope to start arbitrarily saying that using a mechanic as-implemented as-designed-and-implemented for some benefit or avoidance of a greater issue is an "exploit".

Case example, I once docked up at a station I'd been doing illegal operations out of for quite some time. I flew out in my Asp worth 7 million credits total and died... my rebuy at station was 1m or so, but I would've also been whacked with 20m in legacy fines when respawning in that station. Alternately, I could respawn in a sidey (losing my asp worth 7m) but avoid paying the 20m, saving 13m. Exploit or no?

Key thing here which is why I ask for clarity, is that that 20m in legacy fines still sits in that station... so I'm not sure I get why people think suicidewinding "clears" a bounty?

 

[Vorxian]

How Much Should My Death Cost to Make you Happy?

This is a great question, and one that deserves some air time for sure.

Here's from my perspective.

Balance.

If I'm a fair game target, i.e. I have a bounty, I'm wanted or have myself been an intergalactic schmuck and someone out there wants me, then penance is served when I go kablooey.

BUT..

All other times, I do not want to be forced in to the abattoir, unless the ones doing the forcing (against my will, and against any in game reason) are given an equal or heavier punishment as what is inflicted on me.

Reason: It's not fair.

Someone says... If xyz happens, then I'll give you £10. If it doesn't happen, then you will sign over your mortgage free house to me.

Exactly the same unfair deal us PvErs are dealt in OPEN mode. I, doing my thing in OPEN, I'm exposing a 1 billion credit ship, and stand to lose up to 60m - 70m credits if I'm trading in my cutter. A couple of engineered 'lance pilots can kaboingo me in no time.. What's the biggest loss they can expect shooting an unarmed cutter? What's the biggest loss I can expect? Does it balance?

If the answer is NO it doesn't balance, then it should. If I'm standing to lose 60m for a pointless, and lore-less loss..... It's too much. Can't see how my loss would make anyone happy (and if it does make people happy... then my loss should be their loss).

Cold blood murder for no reason should be a pilots federation capital crime. Victim should be fully refunded after insurance claim, and the perpetrator(s) should pay the bill.

Why? Because it's about time balance was restored. A trade off for me playing in OPEN, and therefore giving people playing in OPEN more options. Otherwise, unfortunately, there's always SOLO and Mobius where my game time cannot be wasted by reprocussion-free trigger-happy lunatics looking for salt.

Well, balance rant over... Things are looking up... Sun is out, and my colleague just brought me a nice hot Starbucks latte.

/cheers!

 

[Morbad]

What happens when you get killed by a CMDR in a ship that costs him relative peanuts?

Why would the tool used have any relevance?

Based on Sandro's remarks, it's not that you gain a bounty, it's that the rebuy cost of the most expensive ship you committed a crime in is carried over to your next rebuy.

That's pretty silly, entirely arbitrary, and almost certainly not going to be very effective.

My last rebuy was like 1500 hours of play time ago. While I expect to be shot down again, eventually, it could take a very long time.

The fact that you can choose it whether you have the money or not is an oversight on FDs part.

I find that transport back to your last position requires zero time to be far more silly than being able to refuse insurance coverage.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Bit of a non-sequitur, but I'm still not clear on how suicidewinding works to "clear" a bounty? Maybe I need it spelt out for me, but this is my understanding:
1. I get a bounty on my head.
2a. Blammo, I'm dead (sidewinder or no). Bounty becomes Dormant Bounty.
OR
2b. 7 days tick over, and bounty becomes Dormant Bounty.
3a. I commit another crime where I have the Dormant bounty, bounty becomes active, goto 1.
OR
3b. Dormant bounty stays dormant for 7 days. Becomes a legacy fine.
4. Legacy fines remain *permanently* until you pay it off; or
*. Any time you are destroyed and respawn in the station where the Bounty/Fine/Legacy Fine would be payable, it comes out of your credit balance at rebuy.

This leads into my next statement, which is that it's a bit of a slippery slope to start arbitrarily saying that using a mechanic as-implemented for some benefit or avoidance of a greater issue is an "exploit".

Case example, I once docked up at a station I'd been doing illegal operations out of for quite some time. I flew out in my Asp worth 7 million credits total and died... my rebuy at station was 1m or so, but I would've also been whacked with 20m in legacy fines when respawning in that station. Alternately, I could respawn in a sidey (losing my asp worth 7m) but avoid paying the 20m, saving 13m. Exploit or no?

Key thing here which is why I ask for clarity, is that that 20m in legacy fines still sits in that station... so I'm not sure I get why people think suicidewinding "clears" a bounty?

Ok, so the Fine is still there and payable but the Wanted status is removed (advantageous).

Using a feature 'as implemented' to avoid intended gameplay or intended consequences is pretty much the definition of an exploit, so yes, choosing the Sidie option to avoid paying the legacy fine is an exploit.
The 20m fine might still be sitting there, but you've dodged it, and can continue to dodge it indefinitely.

Would you consider it unfair if the Sidie option was only available if there were insufficient funds to pay the minimum insurance on the hull plus any legacy fines?

I find that transport back to your last position requires zero time to be far more silly than being able to refuse insurance coverage.

Silly yes, but an inevitable consequence of ED being a game. Do you really want a lockout period on death?

 

[Morbad]

Do you really want a lockout period on death?

Yes, on my non-death, my escape pod should take time to be returned to the nearest station. Even more ideally, the escape pod making it back should be less than a sure thing.