Vanguards / Squadron rework screencaps from stream......

Maybe we could have a C1 "Close Protection" module that worked a bit like SCA and meant that as long as you stayed within, say, 10Ls of a wing-ship you'd automatically drop out of SC with the wing-ship to make it much easier for players to act as "bodyguards" for a big cargo ship?
This is what wing nav-lock is for and usually works well at (with a range much greater than 10Ls - it's dependent on your current speed - and no need for extra modules)

The catch is that if the ship you're escorting gets interdicted, and you have nav-lock enabled at the point that happens, you drop out at the position of the escorted ship ... which itself then gets teleported tens of Ls away to the position of the interdicting ship. So you have to do some slightly annoying fiddling and only engage nav-lock after the escorted ship has dropped. But you get used to that pretty quickly [1], and the interdictee can resist the interdiction for a few seconds to give you time to be hovering your control over the "engage nav-lock" button.

(So long as you're not escorting a paper freighter being attacked by another player, this is still plenty quick enough to save the day; if you are escorting paper ships through a PvP hot zone you're going to need smarter tactics all round though wing lock can still be a useful part of them)


[1] The tricky bit for a beginner is developing enough understanding of some of the non-obvious bits of mechanics around interdiction to figure out that's what you need to do.
 
This is what wing nav-lock is for and usually works well at (with a range much greater than 10Ls - it's dependent on your current speed - and no need for extra modules)

The catch is that if the ship you're escorting gets interdicted, and you have nav-lock enabled at the point that happens, you drop out at the position of the escorted ship ... which itself then gets teleported tens of Ls away to the position of the interdicting ship. So you have to do some slightly annoying fiddling and only engage nav-lock after the escorted ship has dropped. But you get used to that pretty quickly [1], and the interdictee can resist the interdiction for a few seconds to give you time to be hovering your control over the "engage nav-lock" button.

(So long as you're not escorting a paper freighter being attacked by another player, this is still plenty quick enough to save the day; if you are escorting paper ships through a PvP hot zone you're going to need smarter tactics all round though wing lock can still be a useful part of them)


[1] The tricky bit for a beginner is developing enough understanding of some of the non-obvious bits of mechanics around interdiction to figure out that's what you need to do.

Yep,

I realise current Wing mechanics can work for this but I was really just offering an example of how new modules could be added to help encourage co-op play.

I guess the mining example I offered demonstrates what I mean best; where the functionality of ship might be divided between several ships to do things more efficiently.
In the case of mining, a Viper with a PWA/Prospector would be able to locate and tag a dozen or more 'roids, a Krait with a bunch of mining lasers/launchers could extract ore, a T9 could hoover it all up and an FdL could fly CAP.
Because the functionality is divided, each ship would have a heap of slot-capacity and FDev could come up with wing-related modules to improve cohesion.

The Viper could have some kind of "Signal Relay" module, which'd mean that, after locating DC/high-ore 'roids, the pilot could push a button and they'd appear on everybody else in the wing's scanner.

The Krait would also need the "Signal Relay" module to display the tags transmitted by the Viper and it might also be fitted with some kind of "Laser Regulator" module, which'd keep mining lasers cooler, increase their power so they mine faster and, possibly, generate slightly more chunks. This module could be fitted to any mining ship but, obviously, it'd take up a slot that might better be used for Collectors or Cargo normally.

The T9 would also need the "Signal Relay" module so it could locate the ore mined by the Krait and it might also have a "Limpet Accelerator" module, which'd improve the way Collectors operate. Again, this module could be fitted to any ship at the cost of taking a module slot.

Lastly, the FdL might be fitted with the "Signal Relay" to help monitor where the mining was happening and it could also be fitted with the "Close Protection" module, which'd lock it to the T9 in SC and it'd also alert the pilot to incoming threats to all members of the wing earlier than normal.
Also, so the FdL pilot didn't get bored, I'd tweak the game so that pirates could detect a co-op mining wing and they'd show up regularly to keep things interesting.

Overall, with the Viper being able to detect and tag suitable 'roids quickly and the Krait able to extract the ore and move on without waiting for Collectors, I'd hope to see the time taken to fill a T9's hold halved compared to what a lone player might accomplish.

Your Vanguard Carrier is costing your group Cr100m per week (or whatever) so you arrange for a mining wing to go out for a couple of hours on a Sunday and collect enough stuff to pay the bills.
 
Overall, with the Viper being able to detect and tag suitable 'roids quickly and the Krait able to extract the ore and move on without waiting for Collectors, I'd hope to see the time taken to fill a T9's hold halved compared to what a lone player might accomplish.
The problem is that you might well be filling the T9's hold twice as fast as a single player could get cargo, but that's not the requirement for it to be effective co-op play: you need to beat the rate that four people could mine at individually. That's doable, if marginally so.

If you just bring four multirole mining ships of whatever size you can each afford
- you can take it in turns to go and prospect for the next rock; when you find a good one it's obvious to everyone else which one it is because it's the one with the prospector limpet still in it
- four laser miners gets four times the fragments out of every rock, which means laser mining becomes massively more effective than any other sort of mining, so you can skip the PWA and the rest of the mining tools
- bigger ships can fit plenty of non-mining weapons and bring a SLF to keep NPCs away without significantly reducing cargo capacity
- with SCO and the ease of beating NPC interdictions (and for better-resourced groups, the ability to park a carrier right next to the rings) you're not going to get threatened on the way back anyway. Combat Is Optional is too deeply embedded into Elite Dangerous for the - undeniably positive! - effects on group play of making it mandatory to ever happen: the game has been going strongly in the opposite direction.
 
A 1 man Squadron Carrier would be ineffective, because he can only fly 1 ship at a time. The upkeep could be too much for 1 player who already has a Drake-Class Carrier.
...but apart for the cost sharing, size (slots) and transport/cargo capabilities (will all squadron member able to transfer commodities to / from the carrier? >I've evil ideas in mind<), I don't really get what's the gameplay difference between a personal FC used as squadron carrier, and a vanguard-one. Will be possible to allow some squadron members/ranks to operate certain functions of the carrier? I.e. for big squadrons having traders then a "head of trading" will be allowed to manage markets... then one or more for navigation/jumps (hopefully bigger than 500ly), and so on...
 
The problem is that you might well be filling the T9's hold twice as fast as a single player could get cargo, but that's not the requirement for it to be effective co-op play: you need to beat the rate that four people could mine at individually. That's doable, if marginally so.

Totally fair comment. (y)

I'm just spitballing here, trying to explain how I'd like to see ED provide dedicated co-op play.
Obviously, regarding that specific scenario, players would figure out the optimal configuration.
Maybe it'd work even better if you had, say, one scout ship and three armed Kraits doing all the mining and collecting.
Main point being, ships could split the tools between them and it'd create a more efficient operation.
 
Looks like we have a lot to talk about on Tuesday on Lave Radio.

The Good
  • Keeping the Name Squadrons (or really it's Squadron's 2).
  • More Rank Categories.
  • More Players in a Squadron (one of the sample screens shows 591+ players).
  • Squadron Icon.
  • Squadron Bulletin Board
  • Better Squadron Leagues
  • Squadron Bank
    • Money
    • Commodities
    • Ships (Not bothered about the Engineering, these are ships to give players a leg up, and give easier access to certain types of gameplay)
    • Personal Assets
  • Squadron Perks (Mostly)
  • Squadron Fleet Carrier
The Bad
  • Not Happy about the Elite Rank Perk. I feel that one should be left alone.
  • Previous Communication gave the impression that there was some way to guide other players (i.e. linking squadron missions to make a mini Campaign, or Setting of some kind of objectives / weeklies).
  • No way to set a 'Nemesis' Squadron, or set another Squadron as an 'Enemy'!
  • No Material Trading.
The Questions
  • Can you only join 1 squadron at a time?
    • Or can you be a guest of another squadron for communication purposes (Or spying).
  • What is the upper limit of the of the members of a squadron?
  • Squadron Carrier - How Much? (A lot I expect)
  • Can we walk around the Squadron Carrier (pity we can't walk around our Powerplay Carriers but that's a different gripe)?
 
Previous Communication gave the impression that there was some way to guide other players (i.e. linking squadron missions to make a mini Campaign, or Setting of some kind of objectives / weeklies).
The feature is still very much work-in-progress, and even then, they might not have gone through every single implemented and planned feature during the stream, so creating missions/campaigns might well be there, they just didn't mention it.

Or at least we can hope.
 
Some criticism of the Squadron interface:
  1. The create Squadron logo is too basic. It needs more options like Crusader Kings 3's Coat of Arms.
  2. The Bulletin board is inadequate. it's only 1 row of messages. This should be like a forum with threads.

The Bad
[*]Previous Communication gave the impression that there was some way to guide other players (i.e. linking squadron missions to make a mini Campaign, or Setting of some kind of objectives / weeklies).

Yeah, create custom missions for Squadron members would be a great mechanic for emergent gameplay. The Squadron leaders / managers would be empowered to generate in-game activities. Such as a list of objectives per week for specific members.

[*]No way to set a 'Nemesis' Squadron, or set another Squadron as an 'Enemy'!

Seconded. We need an option to do PVP between 2 or more consenting Squadrons. Squadron VS Squadron battles would be awesome. Authorized members could voluntarily enable PVP for their Squadron. PVE-only Squadrons would not be bothered.

[*]No Material Trading.

Material trading would be nice.

The Questions
  • Can you only join 1 squadron at a time?
  • Or can you be a guest of another squadron for communication purposes (Or spying).

It should only be 1 Squadron at a time. In Eve Online you can only be a member of 1 Corp and leave anytime. In World of Warcraft it's also only 1 Guild at a time. Communication is done via the chat-features. EVE Online has a much better Chat system than ED.

[*]What is the upper limit of the of the members of a squadron?

WoW has max 1000 players per guild. In Eve Online the max depends on the Corporation Management skill of the CEO (leader). The limit is around 12,600 players.

[*]Can we walk around the Squadron Carrier (pity we can't walk around our Powerplay Carriers but that's a different gripe)?

I'm afraid it won't have interiors. That is a big mistake because the Squadron Carrier is a mobile guild base. So it should have interiors. Fdev should not disregard the leg-gameplay anymore since it's integral to ED.

Squadron Fleet Carrier

It's just called a Squadron Carrier.
 
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Seconded. We need an option to do PVP between 2 or more consenting Squadrons. Squadron VS Squadron battles would be awesome. Authorized members could voluntarily enable PVP for their Squadron
Out of interest what is stopping you from doing it in Open at the moment?

O7
 
I'd assume the point is you'd be legitimately "declaring war" on your opponent so combat wouldn't be considered a criminal activity.

Simply duke it out in an anarchy system.

Unless of course the one asking for it actually wants a way to pursue and harass small squadrons, which might not be interested in such a challenge...
 
Simply duke it out in an anarchy system.

Unless of course the one asking for it actually wants a way to pursue and harass small squadrons, which might not be interested in such a challenge...

Nah,

If it was implemented properly, you'd declare war and the opponent would have to accept before it was considered legitimate.
Once that's done, members of the opposing squadron would be legitimate targets anywhere, like opposing PP faction members are now.
If a big squadron declared war on a small one, they'd just ignore or reject the declaration and any attacks would be considered criminal.

Could make for some interesting gameplay if members of both squadrons were brave enough to conduct operations in Open.
 
Out of interest what is stopping you from doing it in Open at the moment?

O7

There is no proper squadron battle system yet. A decent squadron PVP battle mechanic needs imo:
  1. Option to enable PVP for the squadron (indicator) by the leader (top management)
    1. If your squadron is PVE-only then you cannot participate in battles and won't be attacked.
  2. A base of operations for the guild / player group (that's the Squadron Carrier)
  3. Park the Squadron Carrier in a disputed star system to claim influence.
  4. The opposing squadron will be notified of your presence.
  5. The opposing squadron can choose to defend the disputed star system.
  6. Notification if the opposing squadron arrives in the disputed star system.
  7. They can negotiate, roleplay, or fight for influence in the star system.
    1. Option to declare war on another PVP-enabled squadron
  8. If a battle starts, the game (ED) should count the number of destroyed ships of each squadron.
    1. Damage the opposing Squadron Carrier for extra points / loot.
  9. If a Squadron Carrier leaves prematurely they will lose the battle.
  10. The squadron with the most kills wins the battle after 1 week.
  11. The winning squadron receives credits / a system influence boost
That's about it.
 
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Nah,

If it was implemented properly, you'd declare war and the opponent would have to accept before it was considered legitimate.
Once that's done, members of the opposing squadron would be legitimate targets anywhere, like opposing PP faction members are now.
If a big squadron declared war on a small one, they'd just ignore or reject the declaration and any attacks would be considered criminal.

Could make for some interesting gameplay if members of both squadrons were brave enough to conduct operations in Open.
Saw that. And when something really big and important comes then one of them cancels the war and can do the Thing uninterrupted.
 
Nah,

If it was implemented properly, you'd declare war and the opponent would have to accept before it was considered legitimate.
Once that's done, members of the opposing squadron would be legitimate targets anywhere, like opposing PP faction members are now.
If a big squadron declared war on a small one, they'd just ignore or reject the declaration and any attacks would be considered criminal.

Could make for some interesting gameplay if members of both squadrons were brave enough to conduct operations in Open.
There is no proper squadron battle system yet. A decent squadron PVP battle mechanic needs imo:
  1. Option to enable PVP for the squadron (indicator) by the leader (top management)
    1. If your squadron is PVE-only then you cannot participate in battles and won't be attacked.
  2. A base of operations for the guild / player group (that's the Squadron Carrier)
  3. Park the Squadron Carrier in a disputed star system to claim influence.
  4. The opposing squadron will be notified or your presence.
  5. The opposing squadron can choose to defend the disputed star system.
  6. Notification if the opposing squadron arrives in the disputed star system.
  7. They can negotiate, roleplay, or fight for influence in the star system.
    1. Option to declare war on another PVP-enabled squadron
  8. If a battle starts, the game (ED) should count the number of destroyed ships of each squadron.
    1. Damage the opposing Squadron Carrier for extra points / loot.
  9. If a Squadron Carrier leaves prematurely they will lose the battle.
  10. The squadron with the most kills wins the battle after 1 week.
  11. The winning squadron receives credits / a system influence boost
That's about it.
Agree with what you are asking in principle but Fdev are never going to introduce PvP activity's when it can easily be done now and there was nothing implemented in PP2.

O7
 
Agree with what you are asking in principle but Fdev are never going to introduce PvP activity's when it can easily be done now and there was nothing implemented in PP2.

O7

That's a similar stance as the people who said we'll never get system colonization, guild banks etc. This cannot be easily done atm. There are no Squadron VS Squadron battle machanics like this yet. So it is possible and it's needed for a deeper sandbox. This could be an addition to the Squadron rework in the future.
 
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If it was implemented properly, you'd declare war and the opponent would have to accept before it was considered legitimate.
Once that's done, members of the opposing squadron would be legitimate targets anywhere, like opposing PP faction members are now.
It's still not really doing anything which turning crime reporting off wouldn't already do, which is hardly a barrier to this sort of arranged brawl.

(The sort of person who keeps crime reporting on for an arranged fight is the sort of person you don't want to arrange a fight with anyway, after all)
 
It's still not really doing anything which turning crime reporting off wouldn't already do, which is hardly a barrier to this sort of arranged brawl.

(The sort of person who keeps crime reporting on for an arranged fight is the sort of person you don't want to arrange a fight with anyway, after all)

Oh, for sure.

In my head, if it worked properly it'd create a situation a bit like Powerplay, but between squadrons, where attacking an opponent anywhere you stumbled across them, week after week, would be considered legitimate warfare.
Course, even then, there's no reason one squadron couldn't sign up to one PP power and the other picks a different one to create the same dynamic.

I suppose the one thing direct conflict between squadrons might have going for it is to limit hostilities to the faction you're at war with.
If a squadron signed up to a PP faction so they could wage war on a squadron pledged to a different PP faction, they're opening themselves up to the possibility of attack by up to 10 other factions as well as their intended opponents.
 
We already have the in-game methods and mechanics to allow squadrons to own territory, get into wars with one another, even involve other players via missions etc. It's called the BGS.

If squadrons could have been promoted to factions (as originally hinted in the Vanguards interview), we wouldn't even need to have this conversation. This is all that's missing.

Unfortunately it seems this feature has been silently dropped.
 
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