Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements

[vindicator jones]

Or, you could use your Youtube fame to promote people learning game mechanics and understanding how to play well. Yes, Rinzler did it in a very tongue-in-cheek "can you feel the burn now Mr. Krabs?" kind of way, but he is not wrong at all. An entire rework of C&P would be good, and would benefit the game greatly, but having a player base whose only idea of gameplay isn't farming credits in a shieldless trader is an easier and more efficient start. People can easily save themselves from death, they choose not to. The playerbase of this game, in many ways, is like the average obese American. They are constantly told that they are killing themselves with their lazy habits, but they do nothing. Stop being McDonalds, Mr. Jones, and start being Gold's Gym.

Obviously you have never watched my other videos, especially the ones about evading interdictions.. but anyway, its cool. And since its my channel, I can choose to create whatever content I like, from commentary videos to educational videos. If you dont like my content, dont watch it, simple as that. Many other people seem to find them useful, but hey.. what do they know huh?

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

Don't get me wrong. I think a good crime and punishment system is needed and would make the game more interesting, especially for pirates and other rogueish types. However I think a good number of people are asking for it for the wrong reasons, because they want piracy gameplay gone entirely and not because they want to have it result in interesting player experiences.

 

[vindicator jones]

What I like about Rinzler's video, and Rinzler himself, is that his attitude is rooted in sound principles, management and self awareness, as well as an underlying attitude of "Jesus christ people, if you'd just take a couple simple precautions you'd hardly ever be a "victim.""

Plus, he makes me laugh.

I'm always going to have a lot more respect for the guy who asks that you get better and stronger and more situationally aware in order to deal with aggressors than the guy who's advice is for all intents in purposes "Everybody go complain to mama Fdev and maybe they'll protect us all from the bad 'ol gankers by making it impossible to gank."

No one is suggesting you cant gank.. in fact I said in my video that I have no problems with commanders who want to engage in this activity.. but a balance has to be struck, if you gank, expect to generate heat, just like in the real world. Everyone has to face the consequences for their actions.. The traders have to accept taking the risks of being ganked, and the gankers have to accept taking the risks of paying the price for it. I have no problems educating new commanders into learning how to survive open, but when they dont even get that chance, and they just stick to solo, then I think there is an issue. Its as simple as that.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

My response to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0

Sums it up quite nicely.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

No one is suggesting you cant gank.. in fact I said in my video that I have no problems with commanders who want to engage in this activity.. but a balance has to be struck, if you gank, expect to generate heat, just like in the real world. Everyone has to face the consequences for their actions.. The traders have to accept taking the risks of being ganked, and the gankers have to accept taking the risks of paying the price for it. I have no problems educating new commanders into learning how to survive open, but when they dont even get that chance, and they just stick to solo, then I think there is an issue. Its as simple as that.

Yes this is true and I responded in a very similar way to a previous comment along a similar vain earlier in the thread -

"... well an effective C&P system would naturally need to be carefully balanced - strong enough to act as a deterrent, but not so enduring that you can't escape any past transgressions. Ultimately though, there HAS to be consequences for extreme actions.

The bubble has several hundred thousand systems in it, there is more than enough space for everyone. If you're heavily wanted in one place, go to another. If a specific system is important to you or your operation - behave yourself in it. As VJ pointed out, it does seem strange that you can commit a crime right next to a station and then immediately be granted docking permission.

I don't feel that any reasoned argument out there (VJ's included) advocates extreme action towards any one player group. If CMDRs want to engage in hardcore PvP and really go after live kills then so be it, but let them make the choice in the knowledge that they don't operate under total immunity.

Regardless of trying to prevent griefing and ganking, having substantial, tangible differences between high security and anarchy systems for example just makes for better more dynamic gameplay rather than every location being pretty much the same as the next. This then allows the PvEers to make strategic choices of their own to try and avoid the PvP experience".

 

[Zeeman]

Often forgotten with a crime and punishment revamp, as a piracy revamp that makes it worth a pjrates while to even exist. If you're pirating in an FDL, with A rated engineered goodies, you're not doing it for the money, but there is not really much way to get that far through piracy alone.

Z...

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

Pirates all decide to leave the Pilots Federation and create the Pirates Federation. They rate pirates by giving them Doubloons, collect enough Doubloons and you get to put a parrot on your dashboard, collect even more you can raise the jolly roger, collect them all and you get to destroy your FSD by trying to store rum in it.

 

[Oh Seven Commander]

Obviously you have never watched my other videos, especially the ones about evading interdictions.. but anyway, its cool. And since its my channel, I can choose to create whatever content I like, from commentary videos to educational videos. If you dont like my content, dont watch it, simple as that. Many other people seem to find them useful, but hey.. what do they know huh?

I have watched your videos, but it's funny you suggest that. The griefers produce better content on how to stay alive in Elite. Weird, huh? Pulling the Sean Murray card about your channel is fair game, but it's awful tacky. Sure, you can create whatever content you like, and I can get out if I don't like it, but is that really your response? You stand by your content enough to say "well you can just leave". I still think you are contributing to the obesity epidemic that is poor piloting in Elite (gimballed FDL anyone?), and would love to see you try and use your impressive video skills to improve the community beyond a cry for help from FDev. As for what the people know, since they came to you for help, they only know what you tell them, Colonel Sanders.

 

[Zeeman]

My response to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0

This works - I trade (smuggle) in an Asp X, 3A shields, but boosts to near 500, turning at the attacker and boosting pretty much wraps up the encounter. As in the video, no weapons, I have no illusions of standing a chance against any half capable PvP player in even a half capable Python or FDL. I have my own FDL, Vulture, Python etc. for that stuff...

The advantage is still in the traders court - if the ship is set up to survive, rather than for max cr/hr.

Z...

 

[vindicator jones]

I have watched your videos, but it's funny you suggest that. The griefers produce better content on how to stay alive in Elite. Weird, huh? Pulling the Sean Murray card about your channel is fair game, but it's awful tacky. Sure, you can create whatever content you like, and I can get out if I don't like it, but is that really your response? You stand by your content enough to say "well you can just leave". I still think you are contributing to the obesity epidemic that is poor piloting in Elite (gimballed FDL anyone?), and would love to see you try and use your impressive video skills to improve the community beyond a cry for help from FDev. As for what the people know, since they came to you for help, they only know what you tell them, Colonel Sanders.

LOL.. hilarious... My content is designed to help those who have little, or no combat experience and to help them feel more confident with PVE combat and getting hold of the basics.. it is not designed for end game PVPing as that is a more niche area.

What you "think" is irrelevant to me, because you are not my demographic, and yes, I do suggest new commanders to start off with gimballed, what is wrong with that? Helping new players cope with the learning curve in elite dangerous is what I find rewarding, and if you disagree with my methods, make your own videos, and see how you go as I am all for commanders to make videos on how to improve their game, the more the merrier. All I know is that I have helped many commanders refine their skills thanks to the many messages I get.

The only people I see crying here is people like yourselves, who cannot accept a more balanced approach to open, and get all salty when I suggest that those who wish to kill players for no reason should face in game consequences. You just dont like that I am shinning a light on this subject and exposing the ridiculous limited effects of crime and punishment. Well, to put it bluntly.. stiff.. man up, and get used to someone having a different opinion to yours!

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

I did actually like the video Vindicator Jones, but there's some issues that you raise that are problematic with karma / bounty systems in games:

All Karma systems need a way for players to change their behaviours if they want to if they've decided that they have had enough being the bad guy, good guy or what have you. This is often where the biggest problems lie. In the current bounty system as you've said, death erases your bounty which means that it is ineffective as a consequence especially with insurance costs being so low for players that have been playing for a while. Worse in the rare case that bounties get high enough the pirate themselves, or their friends, can profit from their own criminal record by cashing in their own bounty.

With the brief talk about the Karma system that you had you suggested that possible ways around having bad karma would be to lay low and not shoot at anybody for a while, kind of like the current system where you can avoid systems you have fines in for a while and the fine will eventually be wiped. This sounds good and fair to begin with, but it really depends how long you have to lay low for. If it's too long then pirates who want out will be incentive to just outright quit the game, which is bad for a system which is supposed to encourage more interaction in open, if it's too short then pirates will cause mayhem for brief bursts and simply wait for their karma to neutralise before starting over. This latter part might sound good to people who hate pirates, but the likelyhood is high that there are enough of them around that you won't feel much difference.

Add to that the ability to have multiple Elite dangerous accounts, all in 'karma kooldown' (With a k because it's kool) and you haven't really done much to change the problem, merely moved it to a different measuring system.

Another thing is the idea that only positive Karma players could be 'legitimate bounty hunters', something that could be exploited by pirate player groups for profit, especially if negative karma players are always a money bag for bounty hunters. Player factions would only need to employ one or two of these bounty hunters and farm their own members for financial gain and exploiting the system.

Ultimately no system will be free of exploitation, and I hate to be a negative nancy when people are trying to make positive changes to the game, but these were just some of the criticisms that I had in mind when I watched the video.

 

[vindicator jones]

I did actually like the video Vindicator Jones, but there's some issues that you raise that are problematic with karma / bounty systems in games:

All Karma systems need a way for players to change their behaviours if they want to if they've decided that they have had enough being the bad guy, good guy or what have you. This is often where the biggest problems lie. In the current bounty system as you've said, death erases your bounty which means that it is ineffective as a consequence especially with insurance costs being so low for players that have been playing for a while. Worse in the rare case that bounties get high enough the pirate themselves, or their friends, can profit from their own criminal record by cashing in their own bounty.

With the brief talk about the Karma system that you had you suggested that possible ways around having bad karma would be to lay low and not shoot at anybody for a while, kind of like the current system where you can avoid systems you have fines in for a while and the fine will eventually be wiped. This sounds good and fair to begin with, but it really depends how long you have to lay low for. If it's too long then pirates who want out will be incentive to just outright quit the game, which is bad for a system which is supposed to encourage more interaction in open, if it's too short then pirates will cause mayhem for brief bursts and simply wait for their karma to neutralise before starting over. This latter part might sound good to people who hate pirates, but the likelyhood is high that there are enough of them around that you won't feel much difference.

Add to that the ability to have multiple Elite dangerous accounts, all in 'karma kooldown' (With a k because it's kool) and you haven't really done much to change the problem, merely moved it to a different measuring system.

Another thing is the idea that only positive Karma players could be 'legitimate bounty hunters', something that could be exploited by pirate player groups for profit, especially if negative karma players are always a money bag for bounty hunters. Player factions would only need to employ one or two of these bounty hunters and farm their own members for financial gain and exploiting the system.

Ultimately no system will be free of exploitation, and I hate to be a negative nancy when people are trying to make positive changes to the game, but these were just some of the criticisms that I had in mind when I watched the video.

Oh, I complete agree, like I said, I dont have all the answers, and there are most likely many balancing issues that need to be looked at. These are just ideas that have come to me, and some may not work at all. I guess I am just trying to get everyone talk about it in a positive way without getting into all the silly nonsense and name calling.

Piracy is a profession that really needs a massive boost. I actually enjoy being a pirate sometimes, and I had a heap of fun pirating other player commanders recently in a video I am working on. But it did show the massive limitations associated with this profession. I dont want to negatively impact this profession at all, in fact I would love to make it more lucrative.

My only real concerns is those players who kill for no reason, they need to be held more accountable for their actions and face in game consequences for what they do. Do I want them to stop what they are doing? nope.. but I want there to be a lot more risk for them, if they do decide to act that way, which is really only fair.

But yes, I dont have all the answers, and some of my ideas may not work at all.. but I am just one guy!

 

[Oh Seven Commander]

LOL.. hilarious... My content is designed to help those who have little, or no combat experience and to help them feel more confident with PVE combat and getting hold of the basics.. it is not designed for end game PVPing as that is a more niche area.

What you "think" is irrelevant to me, because you are not my demographic, and yes, I do suggest new commanders to start off with gimballed, what is wrong with that? Helping new players cope with the learning curve in elite dangerous is what I find rewarding, and if you disagree with my methods, make your own videos, and see how you go as I am all for commanders to make videos on how to improve their game, the more the merrier. All I know is that I have helped many commanders refine their skills thanks to the many messages I get.

The only people I see crying here is people like yourselves, who cannot accept a more balanced approach to open, and get all salty when I suggest that those who wish to kill players for no reason should face in game consequences. You just dont like that I am shinning a light on this subject and exposing the ridiculous limited effects of crime and punishment. Well, to put it bluntly.. stiff.. man up, and get used to someone having a different opinion to yours!

Starting off combat in an FDL? That's a niche demographic. I don't mind you having a different opinion than me, or playing different than me. I'm not the one calling for massive reform because other people play different than I do. I'm asking that people actually learn the mechanics of the game they are so dedicated to, that they go on forums for. I simply think you are talented and could help people adapt to Open, instead of feeding the already huge monster. You are assuming a lot about me, and my playstyle, based on what? Me saying that maybe the answer is player education instead of restricting gameplay? I would say Open is rather balanced. There is zero reason to die in Open once you are educated, which takes less time than learning to dock, and everyone has access to the same stuff, equally.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

I have watched your videos, but it's funny you suggest that. The griefers produce better content on how to stay alive in Elite. Weird, huh? ....

... in your opinion.

This is just one of many other threads like it that clearly shows that many CMDRs opinions don't coincide with your own here.

Now that's not to say that you're wrong ... but where I would disagree is that you're only looking at the game form one very specific perspective and that's being competent in any combat situation, however many players approach this game in very different ways and not all are interested in 'Gettin Gud'.

They make their choices to be traders, explorers, scientists etc, etc and do that with the knowledge that they always run the risk of being attacked, and in the worst case scenario griefed or ganked. Combat orientated PvPers, specifically griefers and gankers make their choices with the knowledge that can operate with virtual immunity and under no active and meaningful in game deterrents.

The current in game mechanics may not bother you, but it does to many others. This is where the balance is required.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

I think a real boon for piracy would be a complete rebalance of how ship tank currently works.

Right now in PvP the focus is on amping up your shield as high as it will go to survive encounters, but this means that limpets don't really get to be used. Instead the focus should be shifted to armour tanking with the shield acting more akin to a stamina bar for damage. Usually right now if your shield is broken then it's time to just leave the fight because you're pretty much guaranteed to lose at that point.

A shift toward armour as the main tank of the ship with shield being a secondary, rapidly recharged (Relative to right now anyway) source of tank would mean there is more incentive to hatch breaking rather than just straight up killing the target. Give cargo holds a high resistance to ship weapons but a vulnerability to limpets and there's an incentive to bringing limpets to cash in on the goods.

Maybe shields could still be a primary tank on military ships, but I think transport ships really need to emphasise their bulkiness and be armour plated like gigantic security vans.

 

[NW3]

While I agree with this, I do think there's something fundamentally wrong in griefers and gankers hanging around the latest exploration discovery, knowing they can dish out their griefing and the game will basically ingore it? Isn't this kind of what we're trying to address?

I agree. One idea might be that anarchy systems must have at least 1 station or outpost. Uninhabited systems might be treated differently, at least from a karma standpoint. Also, it's possible that when an exploration discovery becomes known, some authority ships might be dispatched to investigate (and prevent a "wild west" scenario). This could be automatically handled by the game, by noticing that a lot of clean ships are congregating in an uninhabited system.

 

[vindicator jones]

Starting off combat in an FDL? That's a niche demographic. I don't mind you having a different opinion than me, or playing different than me. I'm not the one calling for massive reform because other people play different than I do.

Having a far more effective crime and punishment system is hardly a massive reform of the game. Everything is already there, high security systems to anarchy systems, It just makes players face consequences of their actions

I'm asking that people actually learn the mechanics of the game they are so dedicated to, that they go on forums for. I simply think you are talented and could help people adapt to Open, instead of feeding the already huge monster.

I can appreciate that, and that is something I am consdering, making more PVP and Open related content. But the truth is, a lot of commanders, especially newer commanders are only interested in Solo or private groups due to being constantly ganked for no reason in open. I am not just making all of this up, I get a LOT.. and I mean A LOT of mail in regards to this subject. This isnt just some random rant, there is a problem, even if most people cant see it.

You are assuming a lot about me, and my playstyle, based on what? Me saying that maybe the answer is player education instead of restricting gameplay? I would say Open is rather balanced. There is zero reason to die in Open once you are educated, which takes less time than learning to dock, and everyone has access to the same stuff, equally.

You may THINK open is balanced from your perspective, but the large majority would disagree. I cant imagine how anyone can think open is balanced when a wanted criminal who has been blowing up traders in a system, can then land at a local station, re-arm and re-fuel, take off and continue on their rampage. Balance is when gankers face the same dangers as traders. Right now gankers face no danger at all other than a re-buy when they want to clear their wanted level..

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

I agree. One idea might be that anarchy systems must have at least 1 station or outpost. Uninhabited systems might be treated differently, at least from a karma standpoint. Also, it's possible that when an exploration discovery becomes known, some authority ships might be dispatched to investigate (and prevent a "wild west" scenario). This could be automatically handled by the game, by noticing that a lot of clean ships are congregating in an uninhabited system.

I feel that wholly uninhabited systems should be free pickings as far as crime goes. You can easily see them on the galaxy map and have a filter to avoid them if you want to avoid any sort of risk.

The exploration discovery thing is an interesting idea, especially as right now Merope is full of capital ships that are supposedly quarantining the system and patrolling to keep civilians away but you can fly up to them despite those warnings and they don't seem too fussed about it.

 

[Oh Seven Commander]

... in your opinion.

This is just one of many other threads like it that clearly shows that many CMDRs opinions don't coincide with your own here.

Now that's not to say that you're wrong ... but where I would disagree is that you're only looking at the game form one very specific perspective and that's being competent in any combat situation, however many players approach this game in very different ways and not all are interested in 'Gettin Gud'.

They make their choices to be traders, explorers, scientists etc, etc and do that with the knowledge that they always run the risk of being attacked, and in the worst case scenario griefed or ganked. Combat orientated PvPers, specifically griefers and gankers make their choices with the knowledge that can operate with virtual immunity and under no active and meaningful in game deterrents.

The current in game mechanics may not bother you, but it does to many others. This is where the balance is required.

You also didn't read or didn't comprehend anything I have typed so far. I have not indicated being a PvP player or otherwise. Let me put this IRL terms because you are painting your picture on my canvas. If you roll through Compton, you either have a gun, or a way to not get shot. In Elite, you either have a combat ship, or a ship outfitted good enough to escape. I don't think you should stay and fight if you don't want to, but I do think people should have defenses and stop blaming combat players because they can't read or 'theory craft" ships at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Having a far more effective crime and punishment system is hardly a massive reform of the game. Everything is already there, high security systems to anarchy systems, It just makes players face consequences of their actions




I can appreciate that, and that is something I am consdering, making more PVP and Open related content. But the truth is, a lot of commanders, especially newer commanders are only interested in Solo or private groups due to being constantly ganked for no reason in open. I am not just making all of this up, I get a LOT.. and I mean A LOT of mail in regards to this subject. This isnt just some random rant, there is a problem, even if most people cant see it.



You may THINK open is balanced from your perspective, but the large majority would disagree. I cant imagine how anyone can think open is balanced when a wanted criminal who has been blowing up traders in a system, can then land at a local station, re-arm and re-fuel, take off and continue on their rampage. Balance is when gankers face the same dangers as traders. Right now gankers face no danger at all other than a re-buy when they want to clear their wanted level..

And as Rinzler demonstrated, traders with a brain face no danger either. They just need to think a little and stop being like an obese American. (I am American, it's killing this country. It's really bad.)

 

[vindicator jones]

You also didn't read or didn't comprehend anything I have typed so far. I have not indicated being a PvP player or otherwise. Let me put this IRL terms because you are painting your picture on my canvas. If you roll through Compton, you either have a gun, or a way to not get shot. In Elite, you either have a combat ship, or a ship outfitted good enough to escape. I don't think you should stay and fight if you don't want to, but I do think people should have defenses and stop blaming combat players because they can't read or 'theory craft" ships at all.

- - - Updated - - -




And as Rinzler demonstrated, traders with a brain face no danger either. They just need to think a little and stop being like an obese American. (I am American, it's killing this country. It's really bad.)

I agree 100% players do need to get better.. but when you have gank squads sitting out newbie stations killing them for no reason, then again, you need a system that can help them develop their skills so they can get good.

Killing for no reason in Elite Dangerous in its current form means there is no risk to the people who do these actions. Adding crime and punishment that actually works will make it more fair for everyone. Elite Dangerous is not just about PVP combat.