VR in ED are a great way to experience the game, what VR do you consider to buy?

[Telc]

I am banking on anything which supports the vive wand will support oculus touch. Time will tell if I am right

Yes you are banking on it (and that's my point) and it will support it but likely not be in roomscale.

Oculus is actively discouraging roomscale so you'll get 180deg playfield in most Touch titles.

As an example Job Simulator for Touch puts everything interactive on one side of the playfield. Vive support has it all around you.

 

[Oheck]

I have no doubt wand control is the future, another matter is when it will be polished enough to be usable. So far everything I've seen was too inaccurate to be playable. Kinect, Wii and ps move are long time here, yet being used for child's toys, no good game ever moved far from regular joystick yet.

That isn't correct though. The wands are actually very accurate, especially with the Vive as it has two sensors. Thing is games have to be made to utilize them fully, otherwise you fall back to common controls like mice, gamepads, flightsticks or steering wheels..etc.

 

[Telc]

I have Oculus DK2 which is a stunning system. Amazing with Elite. I have CV1 pre-ordered. From recent information that came to light after CES we now know the Vive Pre has slightly worse image quality than CV1. The vive room camera is nice but the room tracking is useless dragging that cable around. It only becomes viable if some company releases 3rd party wireless adaptor or if HTC live long enough to bring wireless.

Oculus has a much bigger range of titles.

There are some worrying rumours regarding HTC Vive suggesting that the screens used have some issues with colour cycling and flawed mechanical construction. I'm not anti-vive at all but I'm not one of those people who rush to gush over the vive spec and decided it was the only choice months before release.

Palmer and Oculus are still world leaders in VR and the major reason Sony and HTC decided to jump in to the market.

Again not seen a credible solid actual comparison that said anything beyond the Oculus might have slightly better image.

Every guitar player ever would like to laugh about the cord being a serious problem and generally everyone who has used the Vive. Human beings are very adaptable and cords will just be gotten used to for the next few years.

Oculus has a much bigger range of titles using xbone controllers but far far fewer wand based titles.

Oculus may have world leading technology for their second generation but it's this generation that matters.

In this generation they have failed to set an adequate baseline for VR.

No controllers, no roomscale, no chaperone.

 

[Dirtmuncher]

So far I know Vive and Oculus have nearly the same image quality. As I will only get one and wont experience the other, I will not see or be offended by the maybe lesser visual quality.
Both tracking solutions are adequate for seated elite gameplay.
Ergonomics are better then dk2 for both, as I can play with the dk2 for hours on end, this is not a deciding factor for me.
On board audio, judges are still out (we haven't seen the vive solution), but my current headset is more then adequate.

Differences Rift and Vive cv1.
Roomscale and bundled controllers.
Roomscale in my opinion is walking around with 360 tracked hmd and controllers without occlusion. Oculus Rift can do it with the touch addon, BUT at this time occulus doesn't officialy endorse it and tells developers to develop for the lowest common denominator. So instead of giving this new medium and handing devs all the tools to make stellar experiences. They give you a tracked 3d monitor strapped to the face with the only way of interacting being the xbone controller until touch comes out eventually. Also no chaperone, so be carefull not to break your stuff.

I have the space for roomscale: 3,5mx4m. Its scalable,some people might be inclined to think they don't have enough room while they actually have room.
I want the roomscale with tracked controllers because in my opinion it comes closes to my VR ideal.

I want to map the vive controllers in Elite and see if it works.

 

[grammatonfeather]

Again not seen a credible solid actual comparison that said anything beyond the Oculus might have slightly better image.

Every guitar player ever would like to laugh about the cord being a serious problem and generally everyone who has used the Vive. Human beings are very adaptable and cords will just be gotten used to for the next few years.

Oculus has a much bigger range of titles using xbone controllers but far far fewer wand based titles.

Oculus may have world leading technology for their second generation but it's this generation that matters.

In this generation they have failed to set an adequate baseline for VR.

No controllers, no roomscale, no chaperone.

Wow. You're full of opinions. Are you a VR user? No. Didn't think so. Well I'm an Oculus user and one of your previous statements was:

"It's pretty clear most games using Xbone controllers are mostly bad. Outside of Elite and the driving games there is nothing worth putting a headset on."

To start with I don't use xbox controller unless I can't use HOTAS or mouse+keys. I detest console controllers.

Oculus has a great range of titles even before CV1 launch. The Witness, DCS World, Subnautica, Crystal Rift, Time Machine, No Limits 2, Mind: Path to Thalamus, vector 36, Lunar Flight, Radial G, HL2, TF2 and more. It also has some great educational experiences.

Your comparison to a guitar player is laughable and shows how little you understand the difference between standing on stage with a guitar and being able to see your guitar lead versus being blind and having to take into account where you move in order to avoid wrapping the cable around you or severely twisting the cable.

The room scale videos at CES show journalists wearing HTC and having a HUMAN ASSISTANT following them carrying the cable. Welcome to room scale VR!

While dizzy kids get over-excited based purely on quantity (it comes with VR controllers and it can see your cat and it let's me walk around my room!!!!!!!!!!) - Palmer has nothing to worry about. While laser scanning seems like the most advanced system ever it has long-term deficiencies that Palmer/Oculus are aware of and have already stated where they intend to go with optical camera tracking. Using mechanical motors and lasers to scan is a bodge.

You are clearly over-hyped for a largely untested and un-priced product despite there being some worrying alarm bells with HTC as a company and possible design and manufacturing flaws with Vive (look it up on reddit).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That isn't correct though. The wands are actually very accurate, especially with the Vive as it has two sensors. Thing is games have to be made to utilize them fully, otherwise you fall back to common controls like mice, gamepads, flightsticks or steering wheels..etc.

the rift also has 2 sensors for using the touch. I dunno whether oculus are not marketing correctly (perhaps because they have not really started the sales campain yet) but there is so much misinformation about the rift (possibly the vive too but it seems still to mostly be therift)


the rift comes with 1 camera
but when you buy the touch pack that comes with the 2nd camera, which as well as allowing the use of the touch controllers it also allows comparable(ish) tracking compared to the vive.

a few comparisons, 1 vid and 1 text.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtsRCPNHmg

http://www.gizmag.com/oculus-rift-vs-htc-vive-ces-2016/41361/

 

[Zenith]

I'm not considering a VR HMD of any flavour.
Partly because of the price (I'd rather get a kickass gfx card for the same money), but mainly because of the lack of support for people who don't have perfect vision. It's all well and good to say "But you can wear your glasses with a HMD" but I'm not convinced that putting a HMD on top of your glasses, then headphones on top of that is the way to go. I've got large frame glasses because of my face shape and I doubt they'd fit inside the HMD frame. It goes against the current fashion of small, thin frames which would fit inside the HMD. I can't help having an unfashionable face.
"Why not wear contacts?" I'm one of those people who can't wear contacts AT ALL. I've tried them, but when you consider that NOTHING can touch my eyeball without pain, I'm resigned to a lifetime of glasses.

Now I've not read around the subject, so if I'm repeating something that's been said before then I apologise.
Couldn't the lenses in the HMD be swapped out for ones with your prescription to correct your vision? I understand the idea of standardised lenses for mass production and keeping costs down, but if you wear glasses then you're putting 2 sets of lenses on front of your eyes. Why not get a modified set of lenses for the HMD tailored to your personal vision requirements?

I don't believe VR is ready for mainstream YET, even with these consumer releases. As the tech matures, then I'll revisit my opinion.

 

[Dirtmuncher]

Wow. You're full of opinions. Are you a VR user? No. Didn't think so. Well I'm an Oculus user and one of your previous statements was:

"It's pretty clear most games using Xbone controllers are mostly bad. Outside of Elite and the driving games there is nothing worth putting a headset on."

To start with I don't use xbox controller unless I can't use HOTAS or mouse+keys. I detest console controllers.

Oculus has a great range of titles even before CV1 launch. The Witness, DCS World, Subnautica, Crystal Rift, Time Machine, No Limits 2, Mind: Path to Thalamus, vector 36, Lunar Flight, Radial G, HL2, TF2 and more. It also has some great educational experiences.

Your comparison to a guitar player is laughable and shows how little you understand the difference between standing on stage with a guitar and being able to see your guitar lead versus being blind and having to take into account where you move in order to avoid wrapping the cable around you or severely twisting the cable.

The room scale videos at CES show journalists wearing HTC and having a HUMAN ASSISTANT following them carrying the cable. Welcome to room scale VR!

While dizzy kids get over-excited based purely on quantity (it comes with VR controllers and it can see your cat and it let's me walk around my room!!!!!!!!!!) - Palmer has nothing to worry about. While laser scanning seems like the most advanced system ever it has long-term deficiencies that Palmer/Oculus are aware of and have already stated where they intend to go with optical camera tracking. Using mechanical motors and lasers to scan is a bodge.

You are clearly over-hyped for a largely untested and un-priced product despite there being some worrying alarm bells with HTC as a company and possible design and manufacturing flaws with Vive (look it up on reddit).

In my opinion you can use a xbox controller with the Vive also and DCS world, Lunar Flight, HL2 and TF2 will work on the Vive also.
You are right the roomscale videos from CES shows journalists wearing the vive with human assistance. Dev videos of people spending more time with the Vive show no human assistance for cable management: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai4MCmZz28o . So the argument can be made both ways, but yes cable management is an issue, that could break immersion or it could become second nature like mousing or using a keyboard. The jury is still out.

Camera tracking has the potential for full body tracking, but its not included with the current iteration. With respects to rift cv1 vs vive the tracking is a wash when looking at overlapping officially supported experiences.

And yes we don't know if HTC will bring a working lasting product to market. But that argument could be made both ways. Having custom made stuff could be just as bad, flaws might become apparent after extended use.
At this moment a good comparison is still hard to make because both aren't commercially available for objective review.
You see more potential in the Rift, for me the potential of roomscale makes the coming iteration of Vive pull ahead.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You see more potential in the Rift, for me the potential of roomscale makes the coming iteration of Vive pull ahead.

The more things change the more they stay the same

Speccy vs cbm64
megadrive vs snes
Amiga vs ST
psx vs saturn vs N64
ps2 vs xbox vs gamecube (vs dreamcast)
xbox 360 vs PS3 vs wii
xbox 1 vs PS4 vs Wii U

playgrounds would not be playgrounds ( & forums would not be forums ) without the "my toy is better than your toy" banter

 

[xyphic]

I'm surprised at how willing people are to even consider Oculus at this point.

It's pretty clear most games using Xbone controllers are mostly bad. Outside of Elite and the driving games there is nothing worth putting a headset on.

Using one in a VR game makes you feel like your hands are tied up or something. VR game makers trying to make interactive worlds with tons of objects and you are stuck with thumbsticks? No thanks.

The interesting games will all be either roomscale or at the very least using wand controllers so I don't see why people would buy the Oculus at this point when it has no shipping solution. Six months at least of Xbone controller games until Oculus Touch and then not even roomscale? No thanks.

The image quality has been repeatedly directly compared and I've not seen a credible opinion that they are very different beyond FOV shape.

The ergonomics are described as very good for both with a slight edge to Oculus.

The ergonomics of seeing your glass of beer or your pet walking into the room? Vive with Chaperone wins overwhelmingly, Oculus has no solution whatsoever for Chaperone. Without the camera on the front like Vive, Oculus Touch Chaperone will be second rate.

If the Vive is substantially more expensive I can see people settling for Oculus but that part is TBD.

Games take time to develop. The majority of release-day titles for either system will have been developed with 'traditional' input in mind, and I think this is something that Oculus are banking on. The really compelling motion control experiences will come 6 months or a year down the line, by which point Touch will be available. What remains to be seen is whether Oculus will be able to support room-scale proper, something they're being quite reticent about at the moment. There'll still be compelling experiences that *don't* require motion control; in particular, I'm looking forward to immersing myself in ED, EVE: Valkyrie, DIRT Rally, and Star Citizen when they have something worth playing.

Ergonomically, the reports I've read have Rift CV1 substantially lighter and more comfortable than Vive Pre. Wouldn't surprise me if Vive's consumer version has further improvements there. Vive has longer cable, and cable management for room-scale will be easier due to not requiring the lighthouse units to be connected to a PC.

I'm in two minds about chaperone. If you run SteamVR games with Rift, you can get the basic room boundary chaperone system. The camera system requires you to engage a passthrough mode if you want to see objects around you, so I find the pet detection point a little... pointless. If you're worried about pets, you'll have to have passthrough on all the time which could become distracting. As to your beer, the bigger ergonomic issue is that you can't drink it when you've got a whopping great HMD on! Where the chaperone camera will be useful is orienting yourself with your peripherals, particularly the keyboard for those who can't touch-type.

The final point, the expense, is the one that will sway most people. Rift without Touch controllers runs to £500, and if Oculus are to be believed, there's no profit to be had there. Vive has similar components and includes two controllers, and they don't have the luxury of a rich uncle willing to fund them, so they need a profit margin. Even if their BOM and production costs for the HMD run to £100 less than Oculus, I can't see them selling the whole bundle for less than £800 and that'll force the consumer to decide whether room-scale is really worth the extra. Another reason why Oculus might have pushed back Touch is to make that price distinction possible, as it's more palatable to buy peripherals after the fact and you're already tied into their ecosystem by that point.

 

[Dirtmuncher]

The more things change the more they stay the same

Speccy vs cbm64
megadrive vs snes
Amiga vs ST
psx vs saturn vs N64
ps2 vs xbox vs gamecube (vs dreamcast)
xbox 360 vs PS3 vs wii
xbox 1 vs PS4 vs Wii U

playgrounds would not be playgrounds ( & forums would not be forums ) without the "my toy is better than your toy" banter

True true, so in that vein:
Vive has bigger tracked controllers and bigger is better. So Vive. And you haven't even seen the HTC teledildonics leak yet, bigger.than.Oculus!

 

[grammatonfeather]

In my opinion you can use a xbox controller with the Vive also and DCS world, Lunar Flight, HL2 and TF2 will work on the Vive also.
You are right the roomscale videos from CES shows journalists wearing the vive with human assistance. Dev videos of people spending more time with the Vive show no human assistance for cable management: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai4MCmZz28o . So the argument can be made both ways, but yes cable management is an issue, that could break immersion or it could become second nature like mousing or using a keyboard. The jury is still out.

Camera tracking has the potential for full body tracking, but its not included with the current iteration. With respects to rift cv1 vs vive the tracking is a wash when looking at overlapping officially supported experiences.

And yes we don't know if HTC will bring a working lasting product to market. But that argument could be made both ways. Having custom made stuff could be just as bad, flaws might become apparent after extended use.
At this moment a good comparison is still hard to make because both aren't commercially available for objective review.
You see more potential in the Rift, for me the potential of roomscale makes the coming iteration of Vive pull ahead.

I wasn't listing games the Vive doesn't have. Just responding to Telc's statement that Oculus has nothing worth playing beyond Elite or racing sims.

I'm actually not hostile towards the Vive... it's more the fact that kiddies have turned the whole thing into a war of superiority and generally begin with cliche regurgitated statements about not touching Oculus now they've been bought by Facebook.

People become myopic very quickly and we see that with the stampede they make towards Vive.

Regarding reliability/design flaws I refer to a specific post on Reddit citing problems within HTC and within Vive Pre. Very specific problems affecting quality. It's 50/50 whether the information is correct.

If Vive can be successful that can only be good for the VR industry as a whole. Same goes for OculusVR especially since Palmer started this whole affordable gaming VR malarky.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

As to your beer, the bigger ergonomic issue is that you can't drink it when you've got a whopping great HMD on!

You probably haven't used an HMD for prolonged periods of time, but I can assure you there's absolutely no problem drinking wine using the DK2 out of exactly these glasses when wearing it:

That's a standard 0.75 litre wine bottle for scaling purposes. I know it works because I do it on a regular basis and I don't need to take it off for pouring another glass either. Beer is even less of an issue.
I don't know how people come up with absurd ideas of what you can and can't do whilst wearing an HMD and my most likely explanation would be they haven't ever used an HMD.

It's not exactly magic - I'm just capable to remember where my glass and my bottle are and apparently I can even do so when being on my second bottle (i.e. drunk).

Sorry if it sounds slightly aggravated but I've had discussions about that particular point since mid-2014 and it's slightly irritating to be told that 'you can't do' this and that when wearing a HMD when you do it on a daily basis and did so for >2000 hours.

Mostly turned out those people haven't used an HMD ever and are merely theorising over something they haven't tried.

Just observe yourself - if you watch or read something interesting, keep eye-contact etc... do you ever look at your glass to take a sip?

 

[MarcusVatta]

Interesting points here.

I'm sort of surprised that no one has pointed out what will probably be the best and cheapest way to get into VR specifically for ED: Used Oculus DK2s. While I personally think that the CV1 is beyond my price range, I have noted that many of the people pre-ordering them already owned Dk2s (and sometimes DK1s). Once they start arriving, the DK2s are going to start collecting dust. And then, they're going to land on Ebay.

I can, from my own experience, say that the DK2 is good. Not as good, perhaps, as the CV1, or the Vive, but it's good. And it should be cheaper than its purchase price of $500.

 

[lysan]

Indeed. There's a deleted post you can't see, as it was deleted. Deleting them does that.

Ok, sorry I was being a bit too fast on my respond trigger walks away slowly.. .. ..

 

[lysan]

You probably haven't used an HMD for prolonged periods of time, but I can assure you there's absolutely no problem drinking wine using the DK2 out of exactly these glasses when wearing it:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2687/4324915322_9642c54fb4_m.jpg

That's a standard 0.75 litre wine bottle for scaling purposes. I know it works because I do it on a regular basis and I don't need to take it off for pouring another glass either. Beer is even less of an issue.
I don't know how people come up with absurd ideas of what you can and can't do whilst wearing an HMD and my most likely explanation would be they haven't ever used an HMD.

It's not exactly magic - I'm just capable to remember where my glass and my bottle are and apparently I can even do so when being on my second bottle (i.e. drunk).

Sorry if it sounds slightly aggravated but I've had discussions about that particular point since mid-2014 and it's slightly irritating to be told that 'you can't do' this and that when wearing a HMD when you do it on a daily basis and did so for >2000 hours.

Mostly turned out those people haven't used an HMD ever and are merely theorising over something they haven't tried.

Just observe yourself - if you watch or read something interesting, keep eye-contact etc... do you ever look at your glass to take a sip?

Hardcore VR users wear these between game sessions.

Spoiler

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hardcore VR users wear these between game sessions.

Spoiler

https://drwsxce6xtjnu.cloudfront.net/guides/image1s/3858/large/5bQ4L9B3R9GvPT2eup2X

lol you joke but ski mask / scuba mask is how explain away the reduced FOV when playing.
in a car, its my crash helmet
in space its my space suit
in a plane my biggles goggles....
and in time machine VR my scuba goggles (tho I am in a submarine so bit of a disconnect there... tho, it may spring a leak, so I get the last laugh then )

 

[Soda Popinski]

lol you joke but ski mask / scuba mask is how explain away the reduced FOV when playing.
in a car, its my crash helmet
in space its my space suit
in a plane my biggles goggles....
and in time machine VR my scuba goggles (tho I am in a submarine so bit of a disconnect there... tho, it may spring a leak, so I get the last laugh then )

I got to try the CV1 and Vive Pre last weekend. I'm not sure if the lenses were properly set, but I did notice the Vive had a slightly wider FOV, but that seemed to spread out the same number of pixels, leading to a perceived lower resolution.

The CV1 (pre-ordered) was incredibly comfortable compared to the DK2 and Vive Pre. I didn't get a chance to try Oculus Touch, but played 2 demos with the Vive. Before, I wasn't even considering room scale (being mostly a VR pilot), now... At this point, I think I may get the next generation of Vive if the Oculus CV1 / Touch combo doesn't provide decent room scale.

 

[grammatonfeather]

I got to try the CV1 and Vive Pre last weekend. I'm not sure if the lenses were properly set, but I did notice the Vive had a slightly wider FOV, but that seemed to spread out the same number of pixels, leading to a perceived lower resolution.

The CV1 (pre-ordered) was incredibly comfortable compared to the DK2 and Vive Pre. I didn't get a chance to try Oculus Touch, but played 2 demos with the Vive. Before, I wasn't even considering room scale (being mostly a VR pilot), now... At this point, I think I may get the next generation of Vive if the Oculus CV1 / Touch combo doesn't provide decent room scale.

Vive has a taller FOV apparently.

 

[Telc]

Here are the Vive games showcased

http://uploadvr.com/these-are-the-htc-vive-titles-valve-is-showing-in-seattle/

They will eventually work for Touch but probably in 180deg and I think several of these titles show why that won't be a great experience.

Edit -

Particularly like the look of Budget Cuts

As another example, I'm far more likely to play VRMiniGolf in Vive then sit in a chair with an xbox controller playing arcade racers or Lucky's Tale.

I really look forward to these games and their successors maturing, they look fun and with even more potential ahead.