VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[VR Mr Teatime]

for the sake of a maximum of less than 2% of sales. It would make financial sense not to support it at all now if that's the case as it'll probably be irrelevant soon(ish).

Sorry Stigbob, but again we seem to be missing some more numbers.

In addition to the estimated 1.71 VR Steam users there are the Oculus owners of which from what I can see add another 1.5 million Rift users to the pool (https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/12/27/oculus-devices-sold-out-in-positive-sign-for-virtu.aspx) and then the other Oculus headsets, which if Statista is to be believed account for another 1.8 million (headset sales of 0.7, 0.9 and 1.7 million for years 2017-19 respectively).

If that's true then the total potential market (which is growing all the time) is just over 5 million. That as a percentage of Steam users is 5%.

The big assumption you're making is that because there are 90 million Steam users, that this is the potential market for Odyssey, but I don't think its any where near that, or there would be more than ~2 million Elite Dangerous users out there to date. A pessimist might say that Elite's audience is at its peak currently and it has already sold to all those its going to sell to, but I'd give it half of the 5 million that Modern Warfare 2019 sold on PC (and that's generous). So that's another 2.5 million not the 88.3 million making a projected volume of players of 4.5 million in total (assuming there's no overlap).

The current estimated population of 171,000 to 342,000 VR players in Elite is nothing to lightly throw away, given those numbers (these numbers should also be proportionally inflated by the Oculus numbers above as well I guess).

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

If VR is make or break for you waiting is the sensible course of action.

Given only 1.29% of steam users bother with VR don't confuse yourself with a majority they need to be overly concerned about.

What percentage of steam users play ed tho?

 

[VR jefranklin18]

What percentage of steam users play ed tho?

Given the raving about the concurrent peak recently of 21k or so, I would make that about 0.0002%

 

[Stigbob]

What percentage of steam users play ed tho?

I'd guess the vast majority of gamers use steam, maybe not to launch ED. That doesn't alter the VR uptake stats either way though.

Steam sales are estimated to be between 50 and 75% of all game sales, so pretty much every pc gamer in north america and western Europe is a reasonable conclusion.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Source: https://youtu.be/3LTNwwA8csQ?t=448

Im done with you, you keep trying to equate things that are not the same here's a video from pavlov and at the time stamp the guy does something. please tell me how thats would be fair to a non vr player having to face someone pulling that stunt ... go on I will wait.

The players that got killed in those engagements deserved everything they got by yolo'ing straight into a known enemy position.

I would suggest this is more what you'll see in Odyssey (skip to 8:15 if the timestamp doesn't work):

Source: https://youtu.be/mGih367uTpE?t=495

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'd guess the vast majority of gamers use steam, maybe not to launch ED. That doesn't alter the VR uptake stats either way though.

Steam sales are estimated to be between 50 and 75% of all game sales, so pretty much every pc gamer in north america and western Europe is a reasonable conclusion.

My point is. If 1.5% of steam users use VR
But if 60% of VR users bought ED
And if 5% of steam users bought ED

Then hypothetically VR users are a significant part of FDs customer base.

I have no idea what percentage of steam users own ED but as you are suggesting the percentage of steam users who own VR is important, I am just countering it means nothing without that statistic.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

True. On top of that, Elite still is ofthen being labeled as "the best VR experience available". It's a bit outdated as an opionion, but still works in favor of the VR crowd.

I actually stand by it... Regardless of the fact it may be a simplistic implementation it is still for me the most jaw dropping thing I have ever seen (and I have most of the stand out vr titles).
I am gutted, I love the game so much in VR and it's going to get better still when my HP G2 arrives (possibly being shipped on 15th aug )

 

[Katie Byrne]

I'm still in the no buy without VR camp. Horizons gives me everytihng i need atm anyway though atmospheric landings would be nice. In VR

 

[Stigbob]

My point is. If 1.5% of steam users use VR
But if 60% of VR users bought ED
And if 5% of steam users bought ED

Then hypothetically VR users are a significant part of FDs customer base.

I have no idea what percentage of steam users own ED but as you are suggesting the percentage of steam users who own VR is important, I am just countering it means nothing without that statistic.

Statistically speaking 94.7% of ED VR users will buy the expansion anyway.

On a slightly serious note, if you were even close to being right they'd not be launching EDO without VR. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions are pretty telling.

 

[VR Golgot]

Well... The only thing I can find on Xbox VR is linked below. it was posted in June though (It is not on the roadmap)

No VR on new Xbox planned

Xbox head Phil Spencer elaborated further on the 1000th episode of GamerTag Radio (which is awesome by the way), offering some more details on the reasons why Microsoft isn't jumping head-first into VR for Xbox Series X.

Yep that’s the kind of stuff I’m still seeing from Spencer.

I’d expect MS to get into console VR at some point. They’ve got the platform to jump from with their WMR headsets and plenty of VR design experience in their dev houses. It just seems that Xbox X launch won’t be the time.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I think VR may become a bit like 3D TV/movies in that it becomes the next big thing every ten years or so without ever going mainstream.

Whilst it is true 3dtv has died on its rear (crying shame, with the right telly it's great) I don't think VR will die. HLA has been a big seller, 2 new headsets are launching later this year (I know i hsve one of them coming)
Sure not everyone will use them just like not everyone uses a hotas , 3 screens or a wheel in racing games but I think VR will sell enough to do ok. Christ valve and oculus literally can't make their headsets fast enough at moment. Last I looked there is 8 weeks lead time on the index and when quest stock levels go up, they drop down again as fast as knickers in a knocking shop......
So I think VR will do ok with or without elite. For me it would be much better with elite tho.

 

[VR Golgot]

On a slightly serious note, if you were even close to being right they'd not be launching EDO without VR. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions are pretty telling.

There can be greyscale in this. VR users could be a significant slice of the veteran ED community, but that wouldn’t make VR Legs dev any less involved, or change the fact that flatscreen represents more unit sales amongst new players. (And EDO is being deliberately targeted at expanding the player base as much as servicing the existing players).

There are lots of scenarios where a chunky loss (of cash and community goodwill) could be superseded by greater gains elsewhere from fresh players & alternate markets (such as the new consoles etc).

If they feel they can either win those lost players back with later VR deployment (or live without them in the bigger picture), then the decision could still make strategic sense.

Personally I wonder if part of the conundrum is purely that their in-house VR expertise is tied up in guys who have other primary roles. And hence are working to the max on EDO already. A passion play may still come down the line in that sense. (And I’m certainly of the opinion that if we see VR, it’ll be as much a passion play as a pragmatic one).

But in the meantime, if you want another VR thread to bump, come be snarky in the suggestion thread in my signature

 

[Stigbob]

Whilst it is true 3dtv has died on its (crying shame, with the right telly it's great) I don't think VR will die. HLA has been a big seller, 2 new headsets are launching later this year (I know i hsve one of them coming)
Sure not everyone will use them just like not everyone uses a hotas , 3 screens or a wheel in racing games but I think VR will sell enough to do ok. Christ valve and oculus literally can't make their headsets fast enough at moment. Last I looked there is 8 weeks lead time on the index and when quest stock levels go up, they drop down again as fast as knickers in a knocking shop......
So I think VR will do ok with or without elite. For me it would be much better with elite tho.

I'll happily wait and see with VR there's no rush, the longer I wait the better the gear gets.

There can be greyscale in this. VR users could be a significant slice of the veteran ED community, but that wouldn’t make VR Legs dev any less involved, or change the fact that flatscreen represents more unit sales amongst new players. (And EDO is being deliberately targeted at expanding the player base as much as servicing the existing players).

There are lots of scenarios where a chunky loss (of cash and community goodwill) could be superseded by greater gains elsewhere from fresh players & alternate markets (such as the new consoles etc).

If they feel they can either win those lost players back with later VR deployment (or live without them in the bigger picture), then the decision could still make strategic sense.

Personally I wonder if part of the conundrum is purely that their in-house VR expertise is tied up in guys who have other primary roles. And hence are working to the max on EDO already. A passion play may still come down the line in that sense. (And I’m certainly of the opinion that if we see VR, it’ll be as much a passion play as a pragmatic one).

But in the meantime, if you want another VR thread to bump, come be snarky in the suggestion thread in my signature

I have signatures turned off .

 

[VR Golgot]

I have signatures turned off .

Just for you

'Experimental' VR branch for Odyssey launch

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'll happily wait and see with VR there's no rush, the longer I wait the better the gear gets.



I have signatures turned off .

Out of curiosity..... And no judgements either way have your tried ED in a high quality VR headset? It transforms ED from a game to an experience.
It's easy to pooh-pooh things you have never tried so cannot miss. I do the same myself for some things but it does not take the sting away from those who have.

 

[Darkeyed]

The players that got killed in those engagements deserved everything they got by yolo'ing straight into a known enemy position.

the point of the clip is not about the players death its about how vr can do thing that cannot be recreated by a player that is playing with just a keyboard and a monitor. how is it fair that a player can drop 400+ for a vr set and have an advantage over a player that does not have a vr set?
there is a reason why vr and montor play has been seperated when it comes to multiplayer. say you playing a sword and shield pvp game a vr player can attack and block in wild and unpedictable angles. as were a keyboard and mouse player will can only attack and block at programmed angles, is it fair to the moniter player to put him up against the vr player who can easly strike at and angle that the monitor players programed block cant block?

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

Update to earlier posts: Out of curiosity I just ran the Hardware Survey on my Elite install and funnily enough the display device is listed as Unknown and there does not appear to be a VR section on there.

The closest the Hardware Survey gets is to identify an input device as a Pimax P2A, but that's in the same section as my TM Cougar, Leo Bodnar BU036A etc.

My conclusion is, that unless Frontier are parsing that data into a database and checking against an up to date and maintained list of known VR HMD models specifically and able to recognise them against a massive list of "Input Devices", then there is every chance they are missing a chunk of VR users in their stats (there are 6+ Pimax HMD models out there for example) and possibly have a skewed view of the numbers out there (or no idea at all other than industry stats, which anyone can look up, as I have done).

I'm also pretty certain this is the first time I've run the Hardware Survey since I have had my Pimax (Rift owner before that). Mrs Teatime I don't think has had the Hardware Survey run as well (Pimax 8K+ user).

 

[Kelster87]

Out of curiosity..... And no judgements either way have your tried ED in a high quality VR headset? It transforms ED from a game to an experience.
It's easy to pooh-pooh things you have never tried so cannot miss. I do the same myself for some things but it does not take the sting away from those who have.

Mike makes a good point here. I was not a VR player until a week or so ago, and until then, I really didn't care about VR in EDO. Now I've felt the scale of being next to my Python in a hanger.. Felt and seen the size of a Coriolis Starport.. It's almost a night and day difference - at least on moderate hardware. I bought the Rift S mostly for HLA, Elite is a bonus, albeit one that looks nice on a Rift S.

I now find myself prepared to push FDev about VR in EDO, but I won't be withholding my dollars, I'll buy EDO anyway. However, I cannot find it in me to support the protests of some around here, as I prefer to debate/protest in a mature manner, and well, the tantrums, foot stamping, none of it strikes me as mature or particularly effective. Admittedly, my attempt to attract manglement attention by manipulating stock price didn't work - I just ended up owning some reasonably priced shares.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

the point of the clip is not about the players death its about how vr can do thing that cannot be recreated by a player that is playing with just a keyboard and a monitor. how is it fair that a player can drop 400+ for a vr set and have an advantage over a player that does not have a vr set?

In the same way PC players can drop serious coin on a decent keyboard/mouse setup (mine for example cost over £200) and play some titles against folk with game controllers, or spend many hundreds on HOTAS/HOSAS/Cockpit setups (again mine cost well over £2,500 if you factor in designing and building my own CNC machine to make some of the kit) and have a massive advantage over those without such equipment, because I have all my primary flight and combat controls on both hands and don't take them off. Or drop several thousand on Titan GPU's to get more frames and therefore better "reflexes" when shooting opponents.

Should all of those be removed as well?

How low of a common denominator do you want to settle on?

VR in the scenario you envisage and demonstrate in that video, would only be an advantage in CQB against players who are running into a situation they should not be running into and as for the clipping through walls, anyone can do this with the external camera right now. I very much doubt any engagement in Odyssey, where players have whole planets to run around in is going to result in the kind of combat you see in arena/corridor shooters. Its just not going to happen unless you have a death wish.

We haven't seen any melee combat, so do we know if that's an issue?

Even if melee combat was included the moves and collision detection would have to be coded in for the VR player with motion controllers and we know that is not the case currently (and probably won't be, as I expect the most VR players are likely to get from Frontier at this point is VR in the seated portion of the game and be locked out of legs).

 

[VR Golgot]

manglement

And the tread coins a new term