VR support 'not at launch' for Odyssey

[VR SenseiMatty]

Indeed that would be a far far better fit for ED imo.,..... Destiny or warframe with optional PvP thrown in seems closer to the ED vision to me. That said I don't know how many developers who had input to the original ED vision are still involved in ED

I don't know that game but I hope that legs will not be focus on pew pew only.
Star Citizen is already going that way and I don't even know anymore how many weapons customizations are available.
I hope for some survival and exploration elements too. Stealth is also appealing, if we can choose to complete missions without the need to fire to a complete army I would be happy too.

 

[THECATISDEAD]

VR will still be supported in the base game and Horizons. Just not in Odyssey. Which is why I will remain on the Horizons version. Plus space legs are stupid.

For a while... Until they can't be arsed anymore. See: Mac OS client.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I don't know that game but I hope that legs will not be focus on pew pew only.
Star Citizen is already going that way and I don't even know anymore how many weapons customizations are available.
I hope for some survival and exploration elements too. Stealth is also appealing, if we can choose to complete missions without the need to fire to a complete army I would be happy too.

Oh sure I agree..... The nostromo level of alien isolation is some of the tensest 1st person on foot game I have ever seen and it is terrifying in VR.....in that you don't have a gun at all and whilst you have a flame thrower you can't kill anything with it.. I suspect pewpew will be a huge part of ED:O however. I guess I have just accepted that tho happy to be proven wrong. I just hope it's not only focussed on MP. Given NPC's still don't get SRVs however am not holding my breath

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Obviously, if you take notice of some of the 'tinfoil warriors' on the forum, it is Tencent's massive influence on the Board of Directors that has forced the Devs to drop VR in Odyssey in favour of Loot Boxes...

I just wonder if they are using the newest Cobra engine (say from one of the management games) which was never written from the ground up to support VR (as was our version) and they don't have the experienced Devs to incorporate it any longer.

Not meaning to be contrary here but I genuinely believed it was part of Froniter's corporate identity and one of its guiding principles that every game used the Cobra Engine, and each new game developed added functionality to the engine, and each subsequent game could access the new functionality incorporated in the engine? If that is correct, by that logic, Jurassic World could in theory - but it would be ridiculous to do this - have VR, as it came after Greg added it to Cobra Engine for Elite? Continuing in this vein, Planet Zoo could, therefore, use the foliage and weather and water modelling from Jurassic World. And much more importantly Odyssey should be able to access the weather/water/flaura/fauna from pervious games on the Cobra Engine that came between Horizons and Odyssey?

If they are NOT developing in such a way that each subsequent game can benefit from work done in previous games they made, and thus every game was essentially from scratch, they are really handicapping themselves.

No you do not, it's perfectly possible to use a controller or even KB+M for getting out of the cockpit no need for room scale or even standing up.

Bingo, it is my intention to use KBAM and or Gamepad at my desk seated if there is ever a possibility of playing Odyssey in VR.

I would NOT accept 2D for the walking bit , and there's no need for it.

Correct, whether that be flatscreen or VR virtual desktop type "2d in VR" - either is a botch an totally not necessary

Unfortunately it's obviously the truth. The fluctuation of staff just related to the CM is an evidence that the project isn't in best state. FDEV is prioritizing on Dinos and Zoos with minor player stats.

I've noticed that too, been quietly monitoring the ebb and flow in the community management team, and its all new faces. Longest serving CM on Elite is now Stephen Benedetti with just under one year's experience - July 2019, Bruce and Tim have a couple of months, Bruce - March 2020, Tim - April 2020, Arthur Tolmie - who joined this week as the new head of CM team is, however, an elite player.

Will has been promoted, Zac's silence makes me think that has presumably been abducted by thargoids(?), Ed is away to Bethesda(?), Paige is sadly away (was that medical grounds?), Sally - ditto...

I really do not want to think what the repercussions of the developers having a similar turnover would be.

 

[THECATISDEAD]

Must be fun working at FDev...

 

[Rat Catcher]

Not meaning to be contrary

Oddly enough, I know you weren't
(Read enough of your postings recently to understand that)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

For a while... Until they can't be arsed anymore. See: Mac OS client.

There's literally no reason to remove from the base game or horizons. The Mac OS client is hardly comparable.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Must be fun working at FDev...

Must be fun working at FDev...

I'm sure it is, I'm not an MMO veteran/connoisseur, but even I can see the elite community as being "a pretty tough crowd"...

...Not that we are nasty/abusive to the CM's but the CM's are caught in the middle, or crossfire, between developers making a game going in one direction, and players of that game regularly vehemently disagreeing with the devs, and each other.

Part of this is on Frontier's management though, their policy of corporate radio silence between slow coming major content reveals means they deprive themselves the opportunity for continuous feedback and dialogue with their players. This often means they don't really know what we want Z new feature to look like, so they try to guesstimate what will be a success, and by the time they are ready to unveil a mostly complete new feature, its often too far down the road to veer off into a direction more in keeping with what players would like Z to look like.

I often think of the CM's position as being akin to a child in a domestic dispute: Mum - "tell your dad blah blah blah" - Dad - "What -tell your mother I said Yak yak yakety"*

*child thinks - "my parents need to go to a speech therapist, blah blah blah indeed?"

 

[THECATISDEAD]

So FDev needs counselling xD

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

There's literally no reason to remove from bad game or horizons. The Mac OS client is hardly comparable.

You are right, MacOS and VR's separation from elite are chalk and cheese, because the reasons behind each are completely different. With MacOS, it was apple who pulled the rug from under the (majority of) game developers feet, removing the standard gaming API's from their OS in an attempt at forcing games to switch to apples proprietary "Metal" API. With VR however, all the supporting software infrastructure such as VR API's are still there and available to Frontier, yet they are choosing to ignore/remove/disable them from their engine. Ergo if it is within their powers to abandon VR it is within their powers to overturn that decision, where as with MacOS, it was not decisions outwith their influence that needed overturning to continue supporting the game on that platform.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

So FDev needs counselling xD

Yes, they do, and we are giving them therapy:

Spoiler: Typical Frontier therapy session

Look at the centre of the picture and repeat after me:

"Elite Dangerous Odessy needs VR!"

 

[Dooguk]

Obviously, if you take notice of some of the 'tinfoil warriors' on the forum, it is Tencent's massive influence on the Board of Directors that has forced the Devs to drop VR in Odyssey in favour of Loot Boxes...

I just wonder if they are using the newest Cobra engine (say from one of the management games) which was never written from the ground up to support VR (as was our version) and they don't have the experienced Devs to incorporate it any longer

Don't know anything about the Cobra engine, but wouldn't it make sense to add the effects and suchlike as plugins?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You are right, MacOS and VR's separation from elite are chalk and cheese, because the reasons behind each are completely different. With MacOS, it was apple who pulled the rug from under the (majority of) game developers feet, removing the standard gaming API's from their OS in an attempt at forcing games to switch to apples proprietary "Metal" API. With VR however, all the supporting software infrastructure such as VR API's are still there and available to Frontier, yet they are choosing to ignore/remove/disable them from their engine. Ergo if it is within their powers to abandon VR it is within their powers to overturn that decision, where as with MacOS, it was not decisions outwith their influence that needed overturning to continue supporting the game on that platform.

They're not disabling them at all, they are still there in the base game or horizons. For reasons it is not being added into Odyssey. Most likely time based. While the base game and horizons works well with a very basic implementation, I am assuming the elite feet part of Odyssey doesn't, so will take some time to implement it, hence the reason why it's no in.

Personally I would prefer if they went full in with the VR implementation with the base game and horizons as well as Odyssey. But that will take some work to do I suspect.

 

[THECATISDEAD]

You are right, MacOS and VR's separation from elite are chalk and cheese, because the reasons behind each are completely different. With MacOS, it was apple who pulled the rug from under the (majority of) game developers feet, removing the standard gaming API's from their OS in an attempt at forcing games to switch to apples proprietary "Metal" API. With VR however, all the supporting software infrastructure such as VR API's are still there and available to Frontier, yet they are choosing to ignore/remove/disable them from their engine. Ergo if it is within their powers to abandon VR it is within their powers to overturn that decision, where as with MacOS, it was not decisions outwith their influence that needed overturning to continue supporting the game on that platform.

OpenGL hasn't been a standard API for nearly a decade.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Don't know anything about the Cobra engine, but wouldn't it make sense to add the effects and suchlike as plugins?

I know nothing of the Cobra engine either - just commenting from the snippet from a shareholder (posted in the forum a few months back) who indicated an engine upgrade was on the horizon for 'Next Era'.

As we do know, from the Braben interview, DK2 VR support was added to ED very early and very quickly - and we know from the CM comment it doesn't exist in Odyssey in its current form, I was essentially wondering aloud if it is sitting on a new engine which has yet failed to support VR (which might explain away the "No VR at launch").

It wasn't an informed comment, trust me

 

[Dooguk]

Maybe it's because whatever they are doing with space legs tanks the framerate. Have you ever seen the lag in Chris Roberts' masterpiece Star Marine? Now there IS a game you wouldn't want to play in VR.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

They're not disabling them at all, they are still there in the base game or horizons. For reasons it is not being added into Odyssey. Most likely time based. While the base game and horizons works well with a very basic implementation, I am assuming the elite feet part of Odyssey doesn't, so will take some time to implement it, hence the reason why it's no in.

Personally I would prefer if they went full in with the VR implementation with the base game and horizons as well as Odyssey. But that will take some work to do I suspect.

They have said that there will be NO VR in Odyssey but it is available in base + horizons, which to me means that "they have disabled the current level of VR support that is present in the previous games (base + horizons) within the odyssey client".

I am genuinely curious what you mean by "full in with the VR implementation with the base game and horizons" as without the player being able to get out of the seat, space legs, I cannot think of anything more to add to VR in base game or horizons? Maybe a few QOL things like on screen keyboard in galaxy map, or improvements to certain interface modules like FSS, but even the summation of those to me wouldn't constitute a "full in VR implementation".

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I know nothing of the Cobra engine either - just commenting from the snippet from a shareholder (posted in the forum a few months back) who indicated an engine upgrade was on the horizon for 'Next Era'.

As we do know, from the Braben interview, DK2 VR support was added to ED very early and very quickly - and we know from the CM comment it doesn't exist in Odyssey in its current form, I was essentially wondering aloud if it is sitting on a new engine which has yet failed to support VR (which might explain away the "No VR at launch").

It wasn't an informed comment, trust me

You might not have insider information on the engine, but you certainly got me thinking, between what you've said and a comment from @THECATISDEAD about OpenGL not being a standard API, I'm now wondering if the Cobra engine has been "ported" to Vulkan from OpenGL and or DirectX? From what I understand, and remember I'm an enthusiastic gamer who is primarily a mechanical engineer, not a games/software engineer, but from what I've read were cobra being rewritten to be vulkan native it would certainly be easier for frontier to release new titles to multiple platforms, so it would commercially make sense to put most if not all the eggs into that one basket.

But what I'm less clear on is how Vulkan plays with VR? As far as I can discern, and remember that I am a mechy - not a software engineer, if an HMD runtime is written in one API, but the games are written in other APIs, such as DirectX then some interoperability between Vulkan and DirectX is required. I don't know if that falls on the HMD runtimes to cover the interoperability, or if it falls on the individual games to be "bi-lingual"? If its the latter, that could be the reason the plan for Odessy doesn't feature VR?

But given that way back when at GDC 2018, Oculus announced that Oculus Go would get Vulkan support I'd imagine that will have propagated onto their rift & rift S software libraries by now, and valve software have a GitHub for Vulkan support with SteamVR/OpenVR I genuinely don't think that implementing VR in a Vulkan version of the Cobra engine would be an insurmountable challenge?

This is not an authoritative post, this is me doing some tinfoiling and engaging in trying to see things WRT Odessy +/- VR from frontiers point of view, but I think it has presented an interesting possible insight as to why Odessy may not get VR support.

 

[VR Golgot]

You might not have insider information on the engine, but you certainly got me thinking, between what you've said and a comment from @THECATISDEAD about OpenGL not being a standard API, I'm now wondering if the Cobra engine has been "ported" to Vulkan from OpenGL and or DirectX? From what I understand, and remember I'm an enthusiastic gamer who is primarily a mechanical engineer, not a games/software engineer, but from what I've read were cobra being rewritten to be vulkan native it would certainly be easier for frontier to release new titles to multiple platforms, so it would commercially make sense to put most if not all the eggs into that one basket.

But what I'm less clear on is how Vulkan plays with VR? As far as I can discern, and remember that I am a mechy - not a software engineer, if an HMD runtime is written in one API, but the games are written in other APIs, such as DirectX then some interoperability between Vulkan and DirectX is required. I don't know if that falls on the HMD runtimes to cover the interoperability, or if it falls on the individual games to be "bi-lingual"? If its the latter, that could be the reason the plan for Odessy doesn't feature VR?

But given that way back when at GDC 2018, Oculus announced that Oculus Go would get Vulkan support I'd imagine that will have propagated onto their rift & rift S software libraries by now, and valve software have a GitHub for Vulkan support with SteamVR/OpenVR I genuinely don't think that implementing VR in a Vulkan version of the Cobra engine would be an insurmountable challenge?

This is not an authoritative post, this is me doing some tinfoiling and engaging in trying to see things WRT Odessy +/- VR from frontiers point of view, but I think it has presented an interesting possible insight as to why Odessy may not get VR support.

From a totally amateur perspective, I'd be surprised if this is an ultimate stumbling block. But it could be on a 'one more thing to do' list for sure, in getting VR compliant with a new engine build.

 

[Rat Catcher]

But what I'm less clear on is how Vulkan plays with VR?

You'll hate me for this

NMS ported from OpenGL to Vulkan prior to the VR release - In my own biased way I thought it looked excellent in OpenGL - with very minor differences in Vulkan.
Apparently the performance overhead handed back by Vulkan permitted VR implementation as resources were freed up. (I did compare GPU utilisation prior to the initial changeover)