What can the devs do to help grow the population?

Um, accidentally? That sounds off, what do you mean by that?

More importantly though, your main point - why wait? - is spot on. There should be nothing stopping anyone from organising another large expedition. In fact, EDSM expeditions happen all the time, and there are always targeted exploration expeditions going on, but the key difference is there's very little (practically zero) marketing for expeditions. (For targeted exploration, this is little wonder: even managing assignments for, say, twenty people can be quite some work, and scaling that up to two thousand would be far more trouble than it'd be worth.) So anyone who wanted an expedition on a similar scale would need to muster as much support from Frontier as DW2 did, which was far more than they gave to any other expedition before DW2 or after it, and do a lot of marketing. Without the established Distant Worlds brand to help with that.

Would it be possible to make it happen? Sure. Would it be a lot of work? Sure. Would it be easier to just ask for the DW organisers to do it? Sure - but they've made their stance on this quite clear, so yes, while just asking for DW3 is easier, it's not going to work.

That said, if we are talking about exploration - much of DW2 was about establishing a presence deep in the galaxy, and this part turned out to be much more popular than the rest of the expedition - there should be a specific goal, specific destination(s) in mind. This one would be a pretty difficult problem to tackle though, especially since these days, there isn't really any area in the galaxy that would stand out, and draw in explorers en masse on its own. (Whereas if Frontier dropped a hint that Raxxla is in, say, Vulcan Gate, you'd see players swarming there without any planned expedition :D)

One more thing: would it be technically feasible to hold large events planetside in Odyssey? That's a good concern that @M_72 has raised, and while I have no personal experience with those, I have seen some videos (from the Buur Pit) showcasing plenty of players doing just that. So it could at least be no more trouble than it already was at DW2's time.


To be frank though, I don't think it's adding new exploration content that could draw in lasting attention from many players, but new mechanics: and more specifically, new mechanics for colonisation. Practical benefit to the exploration data that people sell, because right now it's only credits, rank points, and some BGS effects (that most players ignore anyway). If Frontier gave people more reasons to find new rare planets, stars, spaceborne or planetary life, that would most likely help so much more than just adding new content to scan and be done with.

Great post +1

I think you hit a nail on the head there when you state that expeditions don't get much marketing or virtually no support from Frontier (I've always suspected exploration isn't one of Fdevs favorite past times, and the ones who were interested, Ed Lewis and Will Flanagan, are gone from frontier). That may be an issue.

One point though, if I recall, DW2 didn't get any support from frontier until around 3,000 players had signed up and it began making headlines in the magazines. It was only then that Frontier jumped on board and agreed to give DW2 the Explorers Anchorage CG that Erimus had written as a possible mission goal. Frontier awarding CGs to groups or events isn't unique to DW2, plenty of others got them too. And lets not forget that DW2 was originally written as a Carrier based event, with a Cannon/Gnosis style ship accompanying the fleet, which Fdev denied, then later announced Carriers were delayed. DW2 did get other support once FDev were on board, like GalNet articles, as well as stuff that was after-event content like the tourist beacons and the science array, which appeared in game several months after DW2 had ended.

The point being, I would hope Frontier would support another major community created expedition (doesn't have to be DW3), if that event generated enough interest off its own back, got thousands of players interested, and the gaming magazines on board, like DW2 originally had to. Nothing was given off the bat on DW2s end, it was earned by having great ideas, a clear and concise set of roles and player projects that inspired people to sign up, a great promotion campaign and marketing (if I recall, the organizers themselves invited Polygon and Kotaku aboard very early on). Marketing is the key, and both Distant Worlds expeditions showed how to do it. Frontier should support events that show potential and have good ideas written into them and what they're attempting to achieve, but Fdev won't instigate them imo, as on the whole, they've been reactive, not proactive, when it comes to player events in Elite.

Timing is also key. You say there's nothing stopping a group setting up an expedition today and marketing it, and you're right, there isn't. But I don't think the timing is right for the reasons I wrote about previously. The game isn't in a state to host a multi-thousand player event, and its not fair to console players if someone does - which I doubt Fdev would be happy to embrace and advertise tbh. (Unless you're talking specifically about an event in Horizons only, which again I doubt Frontier would promote now anyway).

Your point about the galaxy not having the same draw as it once had is spot on too. the reason why the EDSM expeditions don't attract many players these days is because sadly they aren't doing anything new or imaginative. No disrespect to the organizers, but they're reruns of expeditions people were doing 6 or 7 years ago. Sight seeing tours.

DW2 was out of the box in that regard because it incorporated all sorts of projects and events that got thousands to sign up, then was awarded their CG that got thousands more involved. I can't recall any others following in the same vein. The onus really is on Fdev here though, until they give players the content and tools to do more than go sight seeing, there's not much else organizers of events can offer.
 
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Stop putting the grind into the game for engineering mats.
I can't find Lead, Mercury or Tin even on planets that say have them. Or at least implement a way to obtain these via surface mining planets with specialised SRVs or through automated plants.

Allow players to build bases on distant worlds and become self sustainable via allowing them to craft ammo and modules. Of course this would require blueprints and the materials mined/ crafted to make. I would keep ships out this as then it would allow for FCs to ship them in or force players to return to the bubble and buy them.

Stop trying to move into the multiplayer market by implementing more crew for ships and srvs. This is already being done in Star Citizen and it works far better than it does in ED and that game is still in Alpha. Elite was made with the single player in mind in a connected galaxy, multicrew ships were just a really bad idea.

Support VR with Odyssey, and not just a flat screen in the headset. No Man's Sky can do it why not FDev?

What about placing some fauna on some of the worlds? Like huge worms that eat the earth leaving behind cave systems, explore too deep and you end up inside a giant mouth ready to chomp down. Not on all planets just a few, some of the sounds on planets outside of the bubble already get the paranoia going lets take it one step further.
 
I can't find Lead, Mercury or Tin
Try rings rather than surfaces... Works for me 🤷‍♂️
Allow players to build bases on distant worlds and become self sustainable
Leave that to NMS...
No Man's Sky can do it why not FDev?
PSVR quality VR? I don't think ED players would remain very quiet over that :ROFLMAO:
What about placing some fauna on some of the worlds?
Leave that to NMS cartoons too...
 
Um, accidentally? That sounds off, what do you mean by that?
Well, in that DW1 was originally going to be just Erimus showing a few friends around some sights he'd found earlier, and then it ended up considerably more popular than originally expected. Obviously it got much more deliberate and organised as the numbers piled up, but it wasn't originally supposed to be a big thing - as with many of the game's memorable events it started with a "lucky accident".

More importantly though, your main point - why wait? - is spot on. There should be nothing stopping anyone from organising another large expedition. In fact, EDSM expeditions happen all the time, and there are always targeted exploration expeditions going on, but the key difference is there's very little (practically zero) marketing for expeditions. (For targeted exploration, this is little wonder: even managing assignments for, say, twenty people can be quite some work, and scaling that up to two thousand would be far more trouble than it'd be worth.) So anyone who wanted an expedition on a similar scale would need to muster as much support from Frontier as DW2 did, which was far more than they gave to any other expedition before DW2 or after it, and do a lot of marketing. Without the established Distant Worlds brand to help with that.
Agreed - though actually beyond a certain point does the size matter that much. Pulling together a high-hundreds/low-thousands expedition without Frontier support should be practical and I'm not sure anyone would tell the difference once they were on it between that and a much larger one.

That said, if we are talking about exploration - much of DW2 was about establishing a presence deep in the galaxy, and this part turned out to be much more popular than the rest of the expedition - there should be a specific goal, specific destination(s) in mind. This one would be a pretty difficult problem to tackle though, especially since these days, there isn't really any area in the galaxy that would stand out, and draw in explorers en masse on its own. (Whereas if Frontier dropped a hint that Raxxla is in, say, Vulcan Gate, you'd see players swarming there without any planned expedition :D)
Carriers I think have changed the nature of things quite a bit, too. It'd be interesting to see how that affected the "next big" expedition.

To be frank though, I don't think it's adding new exploration content that could draw in lasting attention from many players, but new mechanics: and more specifically, new mechanics for colonisation. Practical benefit to the exploration data that people sell, because right now it's only credits, rank points, and some BGS effects (that most players ignore anyway). If Frontier gave people more reasons to find new rare planets, stars, spaceborne or planetary life, that would most likely help so much more than just adding new content to scan and be done with.
Certainly for exploration in general - perhaps less so for organised expeditions, though.
 
If we only could ignore engineering and play without it.
OH YAY.
We can.
Practically everything outisde pvp is in range of unengi ship, it is only matter how far and "effective" you want to do some things.
Can you kill hydra without engineering?
No.
But cyclops are doable.
 
Your point about the galaxy not having the same draw as it once had is spot on too. the reason why the EDSM expeditions don't attract many players these days is because sadly they aren't doing anything new or imaginative. No disrespect to the organizers, but they're reruns of expeditions people were doing 6 or 7 years ago. Sight seeing tours.
Well, yes, EDSM expeditions are this way because that's what the tool is designed for. There have always been expeditions that were more focused on searching specific areas, but the EDSM expedition page isn't very good for coordinating that. (On the other hand, the network itself is great, as you can also see what others have uploaded already, which is another way to avoid accidentally treading over others' systems.) I wouldn't knock on everyone because there are always some imaginative expeditions going on, but in the end, EDSM's expedition functionality is a tool to help with some stuff, and not something to organise around.

DW2 was out of the box in that regard because it incorporated all sorts of projects and events that got thousands to sign up, then was awarded their CG that got thousands more involved. I can't recall any others following in the same vein.
See? That's the relative lack of marketing. There have been others in the same vein, but you haven't heard about them. To be fair, there's also that for most specific goals, you don't need hundreds nor thousands of players to achieve them, and as I touched upon before, coordinating that many players' exploration might be more trouble than it's worth. (Unless "just upload everything to EDSM and we'll sift through it later" is an option, of course.) So often, there isn't really a need for marketing, if you think you have enough people signed up already.

You also wrote earlier that timing is key, and I think that's an excellent point. I find it hard to believe that I missed on this, too: DW2 had excellent timing, one that couldn't be replicated nowadays. Namely that it was scheduled to launch soon after what was promised to be The exploration update. I believe a lot of players signed up for the expedition because they knew Frontier said there was going to be new kinds of things to find out there (the Codex and all it was supposed to bring) and new mechanics, and wow, we're all going on an adventure! At least, many players I spoke to said stuff along these lines - but this is an anecdote, not reliable data. It's not like there were polls about "why did you decide to join DW2" or such. Anyway, my point here is that DW2's launch was certainly great timing, and unfortunately, with no exploration update on the horizon now, this aspect of it could not be replicated today.
But how much that would actually matter for a new expedition would be, well, let's just say difficult to estimate.


Carriers I think have changed the nature of things quite a bit, too. It'd be interesting to see how that affected the "next big" expedition.
Fleet carriers turned out to be very useful for group exploration, even if moving them can be quite costly in playtime and credits. They are commonly used, most surveys and other group exploration activities that come to my mind have used at least one: so, I expect that any large expedition will include fleet carriers as well. Most likely several, not just one. (In fact, I suspect that if DW2 were to be held today, the organisers would have to deal with dozens or hundreds of players wanting to bring their own carriers along :D)

Certainly for exploration in general - perhaps less so for organised expeditions, though.
Perhaps, but I was more thinking about what the devs could do to help with player growth. In any case, what would be good for exploration in general would (or at least should) also be good for organised expeditions as well.
 
Fleet carriers turned out to be very useful for group exploration, even if moving them can be quite costly in playtime and credits. They are commonly used, most surveys and other group exploration activities that come to my mind have used at least one: so, I expect that any large expedition will include fleet carriers as well. Most likely several, not just one. (In fact, I suspect that if DW2 were to be held today, the organisers would have to deal with dozens or hundreds of players wanting to bring their own carriers along :D)
Oh, definitely any large expedition would contain Fleet Carriers whether the organisers wanted it too or not, plus would either deliberately make use of the DSSA network or just find it hard to avoid.

I'm thinking more along the "imagination/spectacle" lines ...
- DW1 was a big thing in part because back then Beagle was pretty difficult to reach even for an optimised build, there were huge amounts of survey work needed to help people get FSD boosts, so hundreds of players spending several months to cross the galaxy was a major thing, and there were side stories out of getting some of the ships there (or back...) at all.
- By DW2 engineering (and neutron boosting) meant that even a fast multirole could plough across the Abyss like it wasn't there, but it still takes someone who's not rushing and maybe is somewhat new to the whole thing a fair bit of effort to cross the entire galaxy, and thousands of players doing so all at once over several months is still huge, and once past Sag A* there was still the inability to checkpoint data or location making it somewhat tense

...when you can pack the entire expeditionary fleet onto a single carrier and get that to Beagle (and probably at least back to Colonia) without really needing to refuel it, you can go at a much faster pace because there's less need to make sure slower/occasional players can catch up, and everyone can check in their data and position constantly and doesn't technically need to fly there themselves as well as bringing more variety of ships ... well, on the one hand you could probably get big numbers pretty easily; on the other hand it's less epic an achievement.

So how does one redesign the "expedition" concept to be less about the travel and the isolation, and more about something else?
 
Embrace the 'COD / Halo player base' with oddessy - free to play (no pilots loicense), restricted to single 'warzone' battle planet.

Ship interiors.

I've just dropped £60 on star citizen and I cannot describe how big a difference that makes.
 
Embrace the 'COD / Halo player base' with oddessy - free to play (no pilots loicense), restricted to single 'warzone' battle planet.

Ship interiors.

I've just dropped £60 on star citizen and I cannot describe how big a difference that makes.

I think trying to compete against established franchises is a mistake. Adding FPS is a mistake, as will adding ship interiors (which Star Citizen is blowing ED away with, even in its alpha state).

Frontier lead the way for years but never capitalized on it, instead they tacked on shallow feature after shallow feature, and now lots of other space games are leaving ED in their dust.

Frontier would be better sticking to what Elite Dangerous has always traditionally done best - that's its 1:1 scale galaxy, its spaceships, and exploration. Exploration is the one thing that Elite Dangerous has made its name off - look at how the Distant Worlds expeditions brought massive press coverage to the game like nothing else has. Games rarely get write ups in prestigious magazines like the New Scientists, but Elite did thanks to the Distant Worlds expeditions, and those other kinds of events that are still talked about today years after they finished.

If Frontier want to get more people back playing their game, they should take this game back to its roots, bring back the original authors, bring back the great mysteries akin to the Thargoid probe events that gave birth to Canonn, the Formidine Rift mystery that was brilliantly overseen by Drew Wagar. Bring back the massive scale events like DW, Premonition, Gnosis. Build the mysteries and stories and exploration around those kinds of events as well as the official books like Premonition, Mostly Harmless, Out of Darkness, Tales from the Frontier. These are the heart of Elite that brought the game alive, and they're something that no other game in this genre has going for it, yet frontier just tossed them all aside as if they never even happened in favor of the on rails and sterile galnet narrative and the shoot people in the face tacked on fps.

Its no surprise the playerbase has began drifting away, its ever since the shift in focus moved from what made Elite great, into territory that's just about trying to grab new players from different game genres, like the fps pew pew kids. That's not working and it never will with the amount of growing competition Elite has in the space game / fps genres now.
 
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Port the game to ARM based macOS or have it ported by someone able to do it well.
I can't be bothered much longer with Windows, and a hardware update is due which will no longer allow me to run Windows natively.
Apple has now highly efficient systems on a chip which are capable to eat a chunk out of the console and VR markets.
The API will probably become more uniform across devices.

Apple is a lost cause for gaming. Always was.
Apple keeps their ecosystem too tight and this drives away a lot of devs.

Sure Apple is competitive in the mobile gaming, but that's all.
PC and the Consoles have the icing in terms of gaming,
 
Embrace the 'COD / Halo player base' with oddessy - free to play (no pilots loicense), restricted to single 'warzone' battle planet.

Ship interiors.

I've just dropped £60 on star citizen and I cannot describe how big a difference that makes.

Well, i got more than 3000 hours of fun by dropping 20€ on ED+Horizons+CommanderPack on XB at the end of 2018.
Will you be able to get the same amount of fun? Proportionally you'd have to get around 10000 hours of fun 😂
 
Then why can't console players share the same galaxy in Elite: Dangerous? Consoles are the closed-est ecosystems.
They do share the same galaxy, it's just that things like crossplay netcode might be too big of a hurdle for FDev (and not just for FDev, there are to my knowledge still relatively few games which successfully implemented crossplay).
 
They do share the same galaxy, it's just that things like crossplay netcode might be too big of a hurdle for FDev (and not just for FDev, there are to my knowledge still relatively few games which successfully implemented crossplay).
There are plenty of older threads about this. The console producers don't want their turf to be open and simply disallow it.
 
What's this?

Open is chock full of people. At least that's what I've heard anyway. Why would they need to figure out how to increase the population?

They couldn't possibly be lying about that... Right?
 
What's this?

Open is chock full of people. At least that's what I've heard anyway. Why would they need to figure out how to increase the population?

They couldn't possibly be lying about that... Right?
It's been so full of people for so long that the complaints that there are no targets players in open for the last few years are purely imaginary... It is so overcrowded they had to force players into solo to make room...
 
It's been so full of people for so long that the complaints that there are no targets players in open for the last few years are purely imaginary... It is so overcrowded they had to force players into solo to make room...
Well the developers are actively looking for ways to entice more people to play in open so they think the open population is still a problem.

as for the original OP…. I have watch the kick starter dev diaries from years back, and up to a year that followed after launch of the game…. Truth be told, if I was one of those early backers, especially the ones that paid the life time pass for updates, I would be pretty angry about where the game is now after all this time.

those early players were basically shown a vision… that Horizons didn’t seemingly have any interest in fulfilling. Then those backers see the game they were told they were going to get, being created by an entirely different company.

folks rail about the space legs of odyssey not because players could walk around, but because they attempted to add a very very bad FPS aspect to go with it. What the players wanted I gather, was the added threat of alien critters on planets, leggy thargoid and the like. Another material grind, for combat scenarios no one asked for was not going to be a winning combination. That fact that it has been broken trash for a year with pointless game play that few cares about was just icing on an undesirable cake. Lighting and atmospheric “upgrades”? Simply a joke. Honestly, it’s like painting lipstick on a pig. Literally no one cared that a dusty moon looked slightly more colorful. They all look the same! Especially now that the planets with all the high mountains and deep valleys were skinned to look the same as the rest.
So what could they do to get numbers up? Do what they set out to do! Stop throwing out broken updates. Have people intimate with developing the game, actually play customer account copies of the game. The “new” combat SRV took an entire year to develop and be least be released? Why? It makes zero sense. New ships instantly generate curiosity for the game, where are they? Where are the “huge” class of ships? Where are the REAL ship battle conflict zones with something more than just a variety of faction ships facing off?

i honestly think people would love to see this game live up to the potential it has right now, instead of just add more pointless, half way crap to try and generate buzz. Seriously… a YEAR for a single SRV variant? In ALL of the vastness of human civilization through out the Galaxy… we are supposed to be thrilled to have 2 SRV to choose from, a handful of guns, 3 different armor types, 3 different slf and the only attempt to add variety is to slap an engineer grind to it.
I do not know who the person at frontier is that murders all these great ideas from the earliest dev diaries to the players that spend tons of hours living in this game is…. But they need to be handed their coat and hat and sent directly to lunch and asked never to return. They are literally killing this game.
 
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