What do you think about notoriety?

[Oopsie Daisy]

You are absolutely spot on that there is a whole BGS dimension to npc murder that the C&P addresses. I imagine serial murder of NPC cops can be effectively deterred through the C&P system.

Not at all.

Three of us put a system into lockdown by just killing cops. We all had notorieties of 10 and many 10s of millions in bounties. Not a big deal. Just another Fdev annoyance. The notorieties are easily removed and the bounties don't matter and can be easily paid off and earned back.

 

[Dutchman141]

Imho 2 hours for one point is a bit much.
Dumb ai siddy flies through my line of fire while I'm tangling in a HazRes with a wanted Anaconda in my Vette, it gets one shotted and I'm stuck with a 2 hour penalty.
Ai Asp thinks it's a good idea to attack the Gunship I'm fighting with only 10% hull, it gets killed and another 2 hours penalty is comming my way.

I get that murder will be punished but please fix the suicidal ai!!!

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

See, this is just utter cobblers.

The only reason I ever saw for wanting a "C&P" system was as a deterrent to frivolous, non-consentual PvP - to create consequences for players who commit criminal acts.

Seriously, show me a thread where people are asking for a C&P system in order to regulate BGS/PP related stuff.
I have genuinely NEVER seen one.
The ONLY reason people ever asked for a C&P system is to deter criminal PvP actions.

And now we have a C&P system that doesn't do what people wanted, you're saying that wasn't it's intended purpose in the first place?

Maybe I need to hammer nails into my head until that starts to make sense, or something?

I concur 100% with this. That is what happened then. Basically, there is a loud mouthed group that wanted to be in Open but did not want to own the downside of that choice. They basically wanted Open to be PvE. Fdev caved to the crybabies and the C&P is what we got. Fortunately, it annoys the crybabies too so they can "enjoy" the mess they helped to create.

 

[Jukelo]

It's fine, although I think it should stick to the player for much longer. At level 1 you should be forced to live with the consequences of your actions for a couple days.

Also OP, there is no such thing as accidentally killing friendlies.

 

[A D]

I don't have a problem with notoriety per se. However, having received bounties by accidently killing a clean NPC in a resource site, I would say:

- Notoriety for killing an NPC is sort of nuts, but I get the need for consistency.
- 2 hours down time is way too long for a first kill.

I'd like to see two changes:

- Graduated notoriety scale: 1 = 15 mins, 2 = 30 mins, 3 = 1 hr, 4 = 2 hrs, 5 = 4 hrs, etc. Basically, one kill is a timely (pun ) reminder, whereas a 5 ship murder streak will have you packing up for the rest of the day.
- The ability to clear notoriety X with the bounty at an interstellar factor, but at a much higher cost. The X is the maximum time that can be cleared (e.g. assuming a graduated scale, it may be no more than 15 or 30 mins of time meaning you may be a dirty murdering thug but probably not a murder streak psycho serial killer or, if you are, you receive parole for the last 15 mins for good behaviour ).

 

[Factabulous]

I got my notoriety up to 10 in Beta today (for a good cause https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...mpleting-Data-collection-whilst-Beta-still-up). Even at Notoriety 10 I have little issue with the authorities, and even landed at a base in one of the systems where I was wanted (base was owned by a different faction).

Other times when I've killed and got a 1 notoriety it's also ok, just carry on, and if you happen to get scanned by a clean bounty hunter just run - though that happens rarely.

As with most criminal justice systems, it seems the fear of C&P is worse than its consequences in reality.

 

[Siobhan]

Notoriety from player kills should never wear off. NPC kills can wear off quicker if you like.

 

[A D]

It's fine, although I think it should stick to the player for much longer. At level 1 you should be forced to live with the consequences of your actions for a couple days.

Also OP, there is no such thing as accidentally killing friendlies.

Nope, far too long.

Yes there is. I have accidently killed a clean NPC more than once in my illustrious pilot career.

 

[Stealthie]

You are just biased regarding your expectations.

It is ok though, i will remind you some stuff. Go look back on the forum when 2.4 was about to drop (you can use the search function on the forum)
What was the reaction of a many people regarding fixing the "suicidewinder exploit" only for PvP and not for PvE ?

When 3.0 was discussed and C&P Forum feedback as well :
Many people wanted (FDev included as you can watch it here) the C&P to be applied on criminal activities in general, not toward a specific aspect of the game only. A lot of thread have been made in the FFF section.

The C&P system is exactly what people wanted : that players face consequences for their crimes.

The ONLY people who are not satisfied are those who were expecting the C&P to affect a specific part of the game only because they can't accept that anyone other than themself can play the game the way he wants within the framework of its rules and mechanics.

You know what I don't see there?

I don't see you linking to a single example of a thread where people are asking for a C&P system to regulate PP/BGS stuff.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[Ethaidan]

See, this is just utter cobblers.

The only reason I ever saw for wanting a "C&P" system was as a deterrent to frivolous, non-consentual PvP - to create consequences for players who commit criminal acts.

Seriously, show me a thread where people are asking for a C&P system in order to regulate BGS/PP related stuff.
I have genuinely NEVER seen one.
The ONLY reason people ever asked for a C&P system is to deter criminal PvP actions.

And now we have a C&P system that doesn't do what people wanted, you're saying that wasn't it's intended purpose in the first place?

Maybe I need to hammer nails into my head until that starts to make sense, or something?

Well that's some pretty fine reading comprehension bias there.

I never referred to what some people may or may not have requested, wanted, whinged about. I simply reminded the poster I was responding to that the changes to C&P were never presented as anything other than "addressing the complete lack of punishment for criminal actions ingame" - that tackling PvP was not the purpose.

The recurrent threads complaining that the updated C&P fails to address PvP are not wrong, but that's because addressing PvP was never the point of the changes to C&P, no matter how much some people may have wanted or expected it to be. The part of my post you quoted has nothing to do with why different people may have wanted changes to the old C&P in any way, but your words do nicely illustrate some common reductionist bias - that all PvP can be considered frivilous and non-consensual, so needs to be dealt with .

So go on, tell us exactly how the C&P could be programmed to recognize the difference between a PvP attack based on BGS conflict, good old fashioned piracy, attempting to take control (for whatever reason) of all traffic through a system, attacking Xeno hunters, attacking Xeno allies, opposing a CG goal, etc. etc. vs frivilous, non-consensual - or is all of that frivilous and non-consensual PvP?

That, imo, is why the C&P changes did not, and may never be able to, target the broad of spectrum of PvP actions with any real degree of consistency, rational, or effectiveness. Real criminals don't seem to be bothered by the changes, the casual criminals who took advantage of the previous absurdly toothless system are suffering, and the PvP whingers will carry on until PvP is completely eradicated outside of pre-arranged duels.

 

[Ethaidan]

You know what I don't see there?

I don't see you linking to a single example of a thread where people are asking for a C&P system to regulate PP/BGS stuff.

Gee, I wonder why?

Because nobody in this thread claimed that - you've done some fancy mis-reading all by yourself.

I used BGS murder as an example of a soft exploit that could be exploited under the previous system. Seriously, go back and actually read my post. No, wait, you need to be spoonfed, so here it is:

I disagree. The C&P changes were explicitly not about PvP, rather about addressing the complete lack of punishment for criminal actions ingame. One of the most abused of which was the unfettered ability to commit murder (vs NPCs) in an effort to quickly affect a systems BGS. Given that, any PvE server would need the same system - to prevent a PvE exploit, nothing to do with PvP.

The sentence after the underlined part is an 'example' of the types of criminal activity that could be carried out without consequence and had tangible effects on other players. I could have just as easily cited attacking T-9's for mat gathering as an absurdly consequence free criminal activity, but using it as an 'example' does not mean I am saying that is why people asked for changes. Do you see the difference?

As for the part of my second post that you quoted, well interpreting those words as me suggesting that people were asking for a C&P system in order to regulate BGS/PP related stuff... if that's what you got from that, I can't help you.

 

[Chaparral]

Not at all.

Three of us put a system into lockdown by just killing cops. We all had notorieties of 10 and many 10s of millions in bounties. Not a big deal. Just another Fdev annoyance. The notorieties are easily removed and the bounties don't matter and can be easily paid off and earned back.

That is unfortunate to know. I have been very disappointed with C&P as any kind of meaningful deterrent for PK behavior, and to find out that is not effective as a deterrent to BGS cop killing makes one wonder what the upside is.

 

[Chaparral]

Notoriety from player kills should never wear off. NPC kills can wear off quicker if you like.

I think this is the second time I repped you today.

 

[Zarek Null]

In a way, notoriety 10 made the so-called "problem" of noob-ganking "worse".

This is because if you have notoriety 10 in a high security system, and you try to attack another commander, then within seconds the supercops show up with their insta-shield-killer weapons. This means that there isn't enough time to properly fight anyone that is engineered, because the overpowered cops will cripple your ship in seconds, but a fair “match” normally takes minutes.

In this situation, the only way left to destroy another commander is to obliterate them within those few first seconds before the cops show up (which is not difficult to do against especially weak ships). Thus, the notoriety system leaves a violent criminal with no choice but to focus on new pilots exclusively, whereas before they still had the option to focus on more challenging opponents.

 

[M00ka]

In a way, notoriety 10 made the so-called "problem" of noob-ganking "worse".

This is because if you have notoriety 10 in a high security system, and you try to attack another commander, then within seconds the supercops show up with their insta-shield-killer weapons. This means that there isn't enough time to properly fight anyone that is engineered.

In this situation, the only way left to destroy another commander is to obliterate them within those few first seconds before the cops show up (which is not difficult to do against especially weak ships). Thus, the notoriety system leaves a violent criminal with no choice but to focus on new pilots exclusively, whereas before they still had the option to focus on more challenging opponents.

Or you know, you could grow some balls and actually go after ships of equal capability and not bother the new pilots at all!

 

[Kaocraft]

See, this is just utter cobblers.

The only reason I ever saw for wanting a "C&P" system was as a deterrent to frivolous, non-consentual PvP - to create consequences for players who commit criminal acts.

Seriously, show me a thread where people are asking for a C&P system in order to regulate BGS/PP related stuff.
I have genuinely NEVER seen one.
The ONLY reason people ever asked for a C&P system is to deter criminal PvP actions.

And now we have a C&P system that doesn't do what people wanted, you're saying that wasn't it's intended purpose in the first place?

Maybe I need to hammer nails into my head until that starts to make sense, or something?

You are just biased regarding your expectations.

It is ok though, i will remind you some stuff. Go look back on the forum when 2.4 was about to drop (you can use the search function on the forum)
What was the reaction of a many people regarding fixing the "suicidewinder exploit" only for PvP and not for PvE ?

When 3.0 was discussed and C&P Forum feedback as well :
Many people wanted (FDev included as you can watch it here) the C&P to be applied on criminal activities in general, not toward a specific aspect of the game only. A lot of thread have been made in the FFF section.

The C&P system is exactly what people wanted : that players face consequences for their crimes.

The ONLY people who are not satisfied are those who were expecting the C&P to affect a specific part of the game only because they can't accept that anyone other than themself can play the game the way he wants within the framework of its rules and mechanics.

You're both right.

 

[AP Birdman]

Notoriety is pretty pointless in my opinion.

I'm a dirty griefer and have notoriety on my pvp ships almost all the time and it doesn't stop me from doing anything.
It's also kind of ridiculous because it doesn't matter if you're a "good guy" or a "bad guy" because anyone can run crimes.

You could be completely justified in killing a "bad guy" player but if that player has crimes on, you're gonna get notoriety.

I personally think the whole notoriety system is a joke.

 

[Hacker#451563]

Ever heard of "trigger discipline"?

Every single one of my unintentional brushes with notoriety has been cause by turrets on my ship and not me.

How do I make my hardware pay the price?

 

[Morbad]

Previously been suggested that Criminals with notoriety should be visible on Galmap. Which would be nice.[up]

With the shiptypes and ranks of their last 5 player kills... We'd soon see who the sealclubbers really are.

There are probably thousands CMDRs with notoriety at any given time...95% of them in Solo killing skimmers.

Ever heard of "trigger discipline"?

Shoot first and let Interstellar Factors sort it out.

Notoriety from player kills should never wear off. NPC kills can wear off quicker if you like.

Pilots' Federation has far too many absurd privileges already.

I'd be all for more persistence, but C&P should apply equally to CMDRs and NPCs.

I don't see you linking to a single example of a thread where people are asking for a C&P system to regulate PP/BGS stuff.

The whole 'murder monkey' thing was a fairly big deal and significant reason why C&P improvements were needed.

Each NPC murder is it's own transaction and was/is by far the fastest way to push negative states through the BGS. Improved C&P, while far from a perfect solution to this, has long been advocated by the BGS aware and has helped mitigate the issue somewhat.

 

[Marra Morgan]

What do you think about notoriety?

I think it's okay, no problems with it here.

but when we are in combat like in Conflict zone or in HAZ this kind of thing happend that we accindently shoot a clean vessel , I think the notoriety in those 2 area is really annoying, because we have to wait to play about 1 hour or 2 hours, to be able pay the fine,
just to go to station is already annoying, so what do you think commanders? do we need this in conflict zone or in HAZ.

You don't get Notoriety for merely shooting a clean vessel - you have to actually destroy it, which is a pretty deliberate criminal act and deserving of the penalty. So no, there is no special case to be made for CZ or HAZ-RES.