Discussion What is the most efficient way to crowdsource the 3D system coordinates

[Ozric]

I am hopeful that you will not need to spend a lot of time and effort doing this. The galaxy map is only in it's first iteration and with the addition of the Asp and exploration scanners I am hopeful there will be more ways to do this in the game.

However the galaxy map still has at least a couple of bugs I have ticketed that have not been resolved yet and so it may not all come with the initial Beta 2 release. I imagine the most efficient way for you to proceed would be to organise a group position yourselves in different stations along the area most likely to expand (as we know a system it will extend to) and then all head out together. Pool your data at the end of the first day.

 

[wolverine2710]

I am hopeful that you will not need to spend a lot of time and effort doing this. The galaxy map is only in it's first iteration and with the addition of the Asp and exploration scanners I am hopeful there will be more ways to do this in the game.

However the galaxy map still has at least a couple of bugs I have ticketed that have not been resolved yet and so it may not all come with the initial Beta 2 release. I imagine the most efficient way for you to proceed would be to organise a group position yourselves in different stations along the area most likely to expand (as we know a system it will extend to) and then all head out together. Pool your data at the end of the first day.

Hopefully in SB2 the GM shows the position or some scanner provides it. Then its just a matter of copy/paste the data into a spreadsheet and everyone can use it. If that would be possible I wonder why Michael Brookes could not have said that to the author who asked for the coordinates. 24 hours and we will know!!

 

[Ozric]

Hopefully in SB2 the GM shows the position or some scanner provides it. Then its just a matter of copy/paste the data into a spreadsheet and everyone can use it. If that would be possible I wonder why Michael Brookes could not have said that to the author who asked for the coordinates. 24 hours and we will know!!

Quite probably because he did not ask and you cannot really, I do not believe, expect him to tell you all of the upcoming plans they have in detail so they can be picked apart of the forums before they're even in the game.

Do not forget one of the things in the DDA for the Galaxy Map is

Plotting a hyperspace jump

• Automatic course
  • Origin already selected (current system)
  • Player selects destination system
  • Select plot course
    • Sat Nav style options for configuring route
      • Quickest route
      • Safest route
  • If there is a viable route then this is displayed, the destination is locked into the hyperspace computer so if jump initiated this is the target
• Manual course
  • Origin already selected (current system)
  • Player selects destination
    • If within jump range and has enough fuel then add as hyperspace target
  • Repeat above, but add new points to the jump chain
  • Player confirms last jump and jump is locked

 

[ShadowGar]

Regardless of having or not having everything we wanted in game. I always wanted a feature that I could tag each system and add notes to them.

I was hoping for an out of game design that instead of using a spreadsheet, I could use a 3d map like in game and just label to my hearts content.

But if anyone needs more hands on deck for jump measuring, I'll be glad to help also.

 

[wolverine2710]

What we ALSO really need is a math god who can translate the crowdsourced distances into 3D coordinates for a system. I know that before wtbw was there other commanders were trying to create coordinates as well. Perhaps they can/will help. At almost 49 my math skills are suboptimal....

 

[wolverine2710]

I am hopeful that you will not need to spend a lot of time and effort doing this. The galaxy map is only in it's first iteration and with the addition of the Asp and exploration scanners I am hopeful there will be more ways to do this in the game.

However the galaxy map still has at least a couple of bugs I have ticketed that have not been resolved yet and so it may not all come with the initial Beta 2 release. I imagine the most efficient way for you to proceed would be to organise a group position yourselves in different stations along the area most likely to expand (as we know a system it will extend to) and then all head out together. Pool your data at the end of the first day.

Multiple commanders have pointed out that 4 distances from the new star system suffices AND that 4+ distances would make it more accurate.This is because I the distances in the GM only have 2 decimals.

What I would like to know before we start crowd sourcing with the volunteers.

1. How much more accurate will the 3D coordinate become if we take 5,6,7 distances in the GM.
2. Do the 4+ reference sytem coordinates matter. As in everything close to each other, a far apart as possible.

The time consuming part of crowd sourcing is NOT writing it all down but the flying to the new 500 star systems. So imho it does not matter if we take 4 or 8 distances when we are at a new star system.

 

[Snuble]

We can only hope the galaxy map have a lot of new features - including the coordinates. Also should SOL happen to be in the bubble this time the calculations should be easierish.

Anyway, for anyone taking a day of tomorrow - dont. Or maybe FD have nailed the patch procedures so us european types have not gone to bed when servers are back up.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

We meet again in another thread it seems... Have you by any change flown in a long range ship like a L-6 and have you tried to find your route to your destination in the Galaxy Map - aka spiderweb ? I have and I personally find the navigation route planners a blessing. Hopefully the spiderweb issue is fixed in SB2.

Please can we stay ON topic and not go into the equivalent of the trenches war of WWI, nobody made progress there.

Always with these excuses. How to find route - easily. How to best deal - easily.

Deal with it.

 

[Fangrim]

Always with these excuses. How to find route - easily. How to best deal - easily.

Deal with it.

I agree with almost every post of yours Pescisk, but this time I'm afraid I can't ;o)

In my opinion, when having a long-range ship, planning a multiple jump route is simply a nightmare right now. There's lines everywhere, and everything quickly becomes a blur of intertwining lines -> The Spiderweb.

Planning a "best deal" is not so bad, as you can get far with common sense and a bit of knowledge about system economy types and their sells and buys.

For system to system runs it's ok, but if you want to make a trading route with 3+ systems (and maybe multiple jumps between), the current galaxy map and its options are simply not good enough.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I agree with almost every post of yours Pescisk, but this time I'm afraid I can't ;o)

In my opinion, when having a long-range ship, planning a multiple jump route is simply a nightmare right now. There's lines everywhere, and everything quickly becomes a blur of intertwining lines -> The Spiderweb.

Planning a "best deal" is not so bad, as you can get far with common sense and a bit of knowledge about system economy types and their sells and buys.

For system to system runs it's ok, but if you want to make a trading route with 3+ systems (and maybe multiple jumps between), the current galaxy map and its options are simply not good enough.

But we do know that planner is long requested feature and mentioned in DDF. I really doubt it won't come.

 

[Fangrim]

But we do know that planner is long requested feature and mentioned in DDF. I really doubt it won't come.

Yes.

I loved using Slopey's tool, as it saved me a crapload of time, jotting down stuff on paper (read: Excel/Word ;o).

If I could have a tool that only worked locally on my PC, and only on the systems I've visited personally, I'd be more than happy. I don't need global/universal up-to-date figures.

Even better, if an in-game tool was present, I wouldn't use external tools.

I am also sure that Frontier will make some in-game tools, but to be honest, I think that they might as well make an API that dumps the current system data to a text file (kinda like screenshot works). An external program could then use that data for whatever it wants.

No matter how and what they make in-game, someone wants to make a better version of it, and will extract the data from the game.

If someone wants the data, someone will succeed getting it. When that happens, it'll be a cat and mouse game that Frontier cannot win.

If they don't supply the data, someone will make hacks that will extract it. Frontier will have to mess about trying to fix bugs that aren't really there (because some external program is messing up the game).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes.

I loved using Slopey's tool, as it saved me a crapload of time, jotting down stuff on paper (read: Excel/Word ;o).

If I could have a tool that only worked locally on my PC, and only on the systems I've visited personally, I'd be more than happy. I don't need global/universal up-to-date figures.

Even better, if an in-game tool was present, I wouldn't use external tools.

I am also sure that Frontier will make some in-game tools, but to be honest, I think that they might as well make an API that dumps the current system data to a text file (kinda like screenshot works). An external program could then use that data for whatever it wants.

No matter how and what they make in-game, someone wants to make a better version of it, and will extract the data from the game.

If someone wants the data, someone will succeed getting it. When that happens, it'll be a cat and mouse game that Frontier cannot win.

If they don't supply the data, someone will make hacks that will extract it. Frontier will have to mess about trying to fix bugs that aren't really there (because some external program is messing up the game).

I don't talk about *someone* wanting those data. I am talking about viewing such data as harmless versus them actually destroying rather large parts of ED core gameplay. FD should put all effort that it is hard enough so massive data collection automatically can't be done.

 

[Fangrim]

I don't talk about *someone* wanting those data. I am talking about viewing such data as harmless versus them actually destroying rather large parts of ED core gameplay. FD should put all effort that it is hard enough so massive data collection automatically can't be done.

I don't agree, but that's a discussion for another thread ;o)

 

[deMangler]

I don't talk about *someone* wanting those data. I am talking about viewing such data as harmless versus them actually destroying rather large parts of ED core gameplay. FD should put all effort that it is hard enough so massive data collection automatically can't be done.

I am not going to state my opinion on whether this data collection and collation is harmless or destructive of a certain type of gameplay. I will say for my personal gameplay I will try to stick to the in-game tools because I have discovered what I find fun myself. However FD's effort to stop massive data collection would fail. It would be a waste of effort. All I can do to protect myself from data released from procedural mining of the galaxy data and automated mining of the economy data is ignore it myself.
In certain circumstances it may be considered detrimental to certain things, but, can't stop the signal.

 

[Fangrim]

I am not going to state my opinion on whether this data collection and collation is harmless or destructive of a certain type of gameplay. I will say for my personal gameplay I will try to stick to the in-game tools because I have discovered what I find fun myself. However FD's effort to stop massive data collection would fail. It would be a waste of effort. All I can do to protect myself from data released from procedural mining of the galaxy data and automated mining of the economy data is ignore it myself.
In certain circumstances it may be considered detrimental to certain things, but, can't stop the signal.

Well said!

All I want is a tool that will keep the commodity prices of stations I personally have visited. Information does not need to be up-to-date.

Also, I'd like a route planner (shortest amount of jumps from A to B with a specific ship and load).

Profitable routes I'll figure out myself, don't need a tool for that.

 

[Chromatix]

How much more accurate will the 3D coordinate become if we take 5,6,7 distances in the GM.
Do the 4+ reference sytem coordinates matter. As in everything close to each other, a far apart as possible.

Ideally, you want each of the reference systems as far from each other as possible, *and* as close to the target system as possible. The perfect situation is when the target system is inside the convex hull formed by the references, but it's also acceptable for the target to be a shortish distance outside that.

What would be unacceptable is for the measurements to all end up being taken in the same general direction - ie. if the target system is much futher from the references than they are from each other. Then the angular position of the target becomes much more uncertain than the radial position.

Accordingly, if the precision of the distance measurement remains constant with distance, then it would be sensible to use well-known, distant stars as our primary reference. Sol and Polaris are obvious candidates, then we need a couple more to close the volume around us. OTOH, if precision varies with distance, we'll need to use more local references to refine the general position given by the distant stars.

In real-world astronomy we usually have the opposite problem; it's much easier to measure the angular position of an object with a telescope than its distance. That's why there are several "streaks" in the ED skybox - they are star clusters whose positions are accurate as measured from Earth, but are being seen "side on" from the Bootes cluster, revealing the distance errors in those measurements.

If we could take additional angular measurements *from* Bootes, it would result in a corresponding improvement in accuracy. Only two observation points are needed, but each observation yields two coordinates. The distance errors we presently have occur because we can at best observe from opposite sides of a 93-million-mile radius circle, which is tiny in interstellar terms.

As for the *number* of measurements, I think those would mostly be useful for catching errors. Typos and malicious interference can and will happen. I don't think they'll have a very large effect on the precision of the result, which in any case should turn out good enough for navigational purposes.

 

[ShadowGar]

What we ALSO really need is a math god who can translate the crowdsourced distances into 3D coordinates for a system. I know that before wtbw was there other commanders were trying to create coordinates as well. Perhaps they can/will help. At almost 49 my math skills are suboptimal....

Where would we find someone that would know ?

Ideally, you want each of the reference systems as far from each other as possible, *and* as close to the target system as possible. The perfect situation is when the target system is inside the convex hull formed by the references, but it's also acceptable for the target to be a shortish distance outside that.

What would be unacceptable is for the measurements ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzz

^^ I think someone elected themselves? haha!

Maths I can do but those maths.. nope. I'd be more than willing to burn a ton of time to donate towards a project like this.

 

[Chromatix]

I did actually just sit down and algebraically solve the equations involved. The results are quite complex to write down, but should be somewhat easier to turn into program code. However there is still a chance that I've botched a sign or two somewhere, so I'd have to test it on known data (say from a star catalogue).

Now, let me see if I can identify some good reference stars...

 

[RedWizzard]

Could you eloborate on the 4 distances and the "don't lie all in a plane" part of your post. Very curious in the math behind it.
Some in short: for 500 sytems only 4*500 distances have to be read from the Galaxy Map? That I believe less then what needed to be done for SB1.

A couple of people have already answered but I'll give you a geometric explanation as it might be easier to visualise. And explain the "don't lie all in a plane" bit.

Say you know one point in 3D space and the distance to another point with unknown coordinates. The unknown point could lie anywhere on a sphere centered on the known point with radius equal to distance between the points. There is known way to know where on the sphere the unknown point is located.

Now say you know two points and the two distances to a third point with unknown coordinates. The three points define a triangle but we don't know the orientation. Since two of the points are fixed the triangle is free to rotate around the line defined by those two points. Thus the third point lies on a circle (whose centre lies on the line) but we can't tell where on that circle.

Now three known points: with the unknown point we can define a tetrahedron (like a 4 sided dice but not necessarily regular). Since three of the points are fixed there are only two possible orientations, but again we can't tell the correct orientation. Think of the triangle defined by the three known points: the triangle lies in a plane and the unknown point will either be above the plane or below the plane (it could also be on the plane in which case we can locate it exactly with just the three known points). Now add one more known point. The distance from the unknown point to this fourth known point will tell us whether the unknown point is above or below the plane. But there is one case where it won't work: if the fourth known point also lies on the same plane as the other three then again we can't tell which of the two orientations is correct as the distance to both possible locations for the unknown point will be equal.

 

[RedWizzard]

I did actually just sit down and algebraically solve the equations involved. The results are quite complex to write down, but should be somewhat easier to turn into program code. However there is still a chance that I've botched a sign or two somewhere, so I'd have to test it on known data (say from a star catalogue).

Now, let me see if I can identify some good reference stars...

Why don't you test it out on some of the 55 stars we have coordinates for? E.g. use Aulin as the unknown and run your code using i Bootis, Eranin, Danan, and LP 98-132 as the known points. See if the results matches the known coordinates for Aulin.