What is your opionion regarding exiting to the menu and back to collect more material at Dav's Hope and Jameson Crash Site?

[Northpin]

An exploit is not a punishable offence

It is not? How about this?

Notice - A Notice on Rockforth Fertiliser

Hello everyone, As some of you might be aware, an issue with an in-game commodity, Rockforth Fertiliser, was identified on Friday, which allowed Commanders to purchase and sell the commodity from the same station. As this was not intended, the team introduced a server-side fix to remedy the...

forums.frontier.co.uk

That ^ is what i call an exploit.

If you argue it isn't an exploit, you must argue that the developers, while developing the mechanic, intended players to log out and in to refresh materials.

Indeed i'm arguing that.
And even if they didn't intended it initially, they accepted it as a result of certain design choices.

Edit: proof for this ^ is the fact that in an official FD stream they relogged in a Guardian site to reset the instance and get the second blueprint.

 

[Brrokk]

It'll "get fixed" by making the materials not spawn at all, or replacing them with middle to low tier materials just like you'd find anywhere else. Which will make it "fixed" for everyone who has been exploiting it, and "broken" (or at least made irrelevant/pointless) for anyone who might have stumbled across it through organic play.
It won't get fixed by eliminating the relog trick, they'll just make sure that the materials you get for re-logging aren't very good. This is what they've done all the other times so I expect it's what will continue to happen. I don't think material "respawns at login" is a design choice that Frontier WANT to build the game around, it's just a reality they have to deal with due to the limitations of their game engine and network strategy.

TBH I think this fix is already in place at Dav's by default. You don't get G5 mats there, you get mostly G3s and a few G4s. Once the novelty of running around the place wears off, most people realise that it's actually more efficient looking for HGEs or well-rewarded missions for G5s.

At one time Dav's was the only "good player" source of Chemical Maniplulators which are crucial for FSD upgrades, but FD have fixed that by making them drop from destroyed pirates and available by trading down.

 

[Kaocraft]

It may actually be a design choice.
Materials do not respawn at login. Materials respawn at instance initialization
You can achieve that either by relogging or by board-climb_to_2.5km-enter_supercruise_exit-supercruise-land-disembark-collect-repeat.
The later procedure does not involve relogging, but it is a lot more tedious.

I understand what you mean, and I'm aware of the mechanism you're describing. I misspoke by saying "login," because in practice that's what most people do; but I don't think it substantially changes what I'm getting at and my suspicion is still that it's a limitation of the engine rather than a truly intentional design choice (in the sense of it being the designer's preferred way of handling this, not in the sense that they didn't in some way "choose" this outcome by accepting that it was the least difficult thing to implement).

Point is, if FDev had anything against relogging they could had fixed it as they did back in January 2019 with relogging in HGE.

This I don't know anything about, but would be interested to know what you mean if you're willing to explain it. My impression is that Frontier wouldn't have the ability to fix relogging without making substantial changes to the way the game works under the hood. If it would be equally easy to have persistent states for objects within instances, and the devs CHOSE not to have this, then I really don't know what to think.

 

[Kaocraft]

Not sure about that. IIRC there already is a cool down timer for some other stuff.

If that's the case then I'm baffled. Why not set the cool down timer to infinity and be done with it? What possible reason could there be for Frontier to encourage repeat visits to the same sites to pick up the same objects you already picked up previously, which have somehow magically regenerated?

 

[Aashenfox]

For me this issue is simple...the material gathering system is broken, horrible, soul destroying and evil (for some specific data mats). When they address that, it would be a great time to address such exploits. Right now, if you take away my opportunity to refarm certain HGEs or the Jameson Cobra (there is NO situation where it is most efficient to use DAv's Hope for mats, it doesn't even have a single g5), I would be extremely upset and vocal about it.

 

[babelfisch]

If that's the case then I'm baffled. Why not set the cool down timer to infinity and be done with it? What possible reason could there be for Frontier to encourage repeat visits to the same sites to pick up the same objects you already picked up previously, which have somehow magically regenerated?

They probably fear the wrath of the anti nerf committee.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Rocket jumping was an exploit, too. It became official game mechanic in Quake. By the time I played TF2 it was properly cemented gameplay. That's of course different from relogging for 6 hours to fill some coffers for a mundane grind task.
One is proper gameplay and requires skill - the other is a desperate attempt to circumvent gated-off content.

 

[MaxG10]

It's fine with me but how do you feel about it?

Me doesn't like it. Why?

Engineering is a must do in this game to fully enjoy the options. Just by collecting the usual mats via gameplay takes too long to fill up mats required if you go into serious engineering a couple of ships.

Same counts for HGE quit game, start again, super cruise, turn 180, enter HGE again.

It is boring as boring can be, and I wish there would be additional game play that rewards more mats, like taking on missions, but if the max I can get out there is 5, this is way too little to consider, it should have 15 -20 as a reward option for more difficult missions in my view, or another game play aspect to be able to get mats that are required for Grade 5.

That being said, without the re log option I would not have continued playing Elite, because this would have made engineering the ultimate eternally stupid grind.

 

[Factabulous]

Same counts for HGE quit game, start again, super cruise, turn 180, enter HGE again.

Yeah, that's an obvious exploit - they stopped you being able to jump out of a HGE and back in again, so killing the game to do the same was obviously not intended. I wish they would patch that out. Kinda funny in a thread asking about relogs that the more extreme 'kill the client' techniques are being defended.

 

[MaxG10]

Yeah, that's an obvious exploit - they stopped you being able to jump out of a HGE and back in again, so killing the game to do the same was obviously not intended. I wish they would patch that out. Kinda funny in a thread asking about relogs that the more extreme 'kill the client' techniques are being defended.

I think I remember that Exigious said somewhere that he asked Frontier if this would constitute breach of TOS, it is not was their reply.

 

[MaxG10]

I think I remember that Exigious said somewhere that he asked Frontier if this would constitute breach of TOS, it is not was their reply.

This:

 

[Factabulous]

This:

View attachment 162052

C'mon - apply common sense - anything that involves exiting to desktop (like, say combat logging) is not in the spirt of the game. Sure, support agree they won't ban you, but it is not intended behaviour. These types of logical hoop jumps remind me of the ones we see every time a goldrush exploit is stopped - people trying to justify game breaking actions because it's useful.

But hey - if you think that games should be played by killing them repeatedly then go ahead, a 'fluencer says it's ok so all good

 

[babelfisch]

I think I remember that Exigious said somewhere that he asked Frontier if this would constitute breach of TOS, it is not was their reply.

Just because it doesn't breach the TOS it doesn't stop being an exploit.

By definition, an exploit is everything that benefits you without being intended gameplay.

 

[GonzTheMalificent]

If they nerf'ed Dav's, meh. If they nerf'ed Jameson's, I'd stop playing. Seriously. And I love this game...………...

 

[Northpin]

Point is, if FDev had anything against relogging they could had fixed it as they did back in January 2019 with relogging in HGE.

This I don't know anything about, but would be interested to know what you mean if you're willing to explain it. My impression is that Frontier wouldn't have the ability to fix relogging without making substantial changes to the way the game works under the hood. If it would be equally easy to have persistent states for objects within instances, and the devs CHOSE not to have this, then I really don't know what to think.

it used to work like this: drop into a hge, collect, exit to menu, reconnect, enter supercruise - find the hge behind you, drop into hge, collect and so on until the HGE timer would expire.
Then they patched it in January 2019 so the HGE would disappear after exiting to menu.
So it was doable for a transient POI as a HGE. [1]

Seeing @MaxG10 post above, it appears to still be working by exiting to desktop - so not task kill, but a clean exit - which technically means no violation of rules here.

Some will frown on this as they are frowning on relogging at Dav's.
As far as i'm concerned, it's basically the same as quit to menu during combat to save the ship that has toasted fsd/drives and cannot wake out of the combat.
The later is confirmed by FDev as legitimate gameplay, but frowned upon by pvp community.



[1]
And it is doable for persistent POI's as well.
For example for Crystalline Shards one can empty a site (they will slowly refresh, but no idea about the timeframe) then he will have to use next site and so on.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It is not? How about this?

Notice - A Notice on Rockforth Fertiliser

Hello everyone, As some of you might be aware, an issue with an in-game commodity, Rockforth Fertiliser, was identified on Friday, which allowed Commanders to purchase and sell the commodity from the same station. As this was not intended, the team introduced a server-side fix to remedy the...

forums.frontier.co.uk

That ^ is what i call an exploit.

An exploit can be different from a cheat when it doesn't break any rules. And that's what we're talking about.

And exploit can be a cheat, if it breaks rules. If it doesn't, it's not a cheat.

Indeed i'm arguing that.
And even if they didn't intended it initially, they accepted it as a result of certain design choices.

If they didn't intend it initially, it's an exploit.

Edit: proof for this ^ is the fact that in an official FD stream they relogged in a Guardian site to reset the instance and get the second blueprint.

How is that proof they intended it? It's proof they accepted it as a valid play. But whether it's an exploit is determined while developing, not after the fact.

 

[Nadreck]

While I understand the "exploit" argument, Frontier seem to take action when a reward can be gained "too quickly", and Dav's Hope doesn't break that rule, because of the low quality of the stuff you get. Harvesting Dav's Hope is simply not a time-efficient way to gather significant quantities of materials.

HGE's and mission rewards are. Hence, relogging on HGE's is a more serious concern. Gaining high-grade mats "too quickly" that way could be genuinely unbalancing.

 

[RedVee1917]

To me it's an exploit which devs should have closed and/or punish cmdrs who take advantage of it repeatedly. After all you are gaining an advantage over cmdrs who don't know about this loophole.

If combat logging is a punishable exploit then all exploits should be

 

[babelfisch]

To me it's an exploit which devs should have closed and/or punish cmdrs who take advantage of it repeatedly. After all you are gaining an advantage over cmdrs who don't know about this loophole.

If combat logging is a punishable exploit then all exploits should be

Personally I couldn't care less how much time someone spends with gathering materials. I just think it should be closed because it's stupid.

 

[MaxG10]

it used to work like this: drop into a hge, collect, exit to menu, reconnect, enter supercruise - find the hge behind you, drop into hge, collect and so on until the HGE timer would expire.
Then they patched it in January 2019 so the HGE would disappear after exiting to menu.
So it was doable for a transient POI as a HGE. [1]

Seeing @MaxG10 post above, it appears to still be working by exiting to desktop - so not task kill, but a clean exit - which technically means no violation of rules here.

Some will frown on this as they are frowning on relogging at Dav's.
As far as i'm concerned, it's basically the same as quit to menu during combat to save the ship that has toasted fsd/drives and cannot wake out of the combat.
The later is confirmed by FDev as legitimate gameplay, but frowned upon by pvp community.

Yeppers Northpin! Here is another observation, once you find a spot with multiple HGE, and one of them with a high clock count, say 36 minutes, and others low, of course use the 36 minutes HGE. Quit game proceedure until bucket full, visit Trader, go back to the same system and one HGE now will also have a high clock count. So it is worth it revisiting.

I can say I had that effect three times, might not always be this way, but when I stumbled across it, I paid attention and ever since it works.

@ To whom it may concern

Horses for courses, right?

First, no one has any disadvantage because I choose the most efiicient method to collect G5 Manufactured, no one. Second, everyone else is free to do the same, that's your choice to not use this method, and fwiw I play solo exclusively until I have ships engineered to a point that I see fit for Open Play purpose, and because I like to go open play, I engineer as quickly as possible. Would I do it in open play too?

You betcha!

Apart from that, personally I find it risible to moralise on a game feature, ymmv, of course.

Best
MaxG10