What Would Make Most Players Happy?

[Darkphoenix]

I have spent the past few nights thinking about the general gap in how most traders feel about the game and most pirates and the current holes in the crime and punishment that currently exists. The following is of course in my opinion only but these are my thoughts about a course of action that would satisfy a majority of players and do much to equal the field of open play.

The life of a pirate is supposed to be difficult, it's about time it was made that way. When a crime of murder is committed in a high security major faction (Federation, Empire, Alliance) aligned system the consequences for that action should be extremely harsh. One does not simply drop pants and urinate on a presidential lawn without expecting a harsh headache (head slammed against squad car) and significant amounts of "me time" to think about the actions committed.

What if when murder is committed in these systems against a Pilot's Federation member, the Federation immediately revoked insurance for the offending pilot in addition to the persistent bounty that is coming with 1.3? In my opinion, this is a pretty severe penalty for committing murder in these locations and would deter most of the pew pew for the lulz issues that currently exist in game. System response should be heavy and swift with a powerful response in a short amount of time with steady reinforcements streaming in until the situation is taken care of. Ships would be a mix of all types including some heavy hitters with very difficult A.I.

In medium security systems (Dictatorships, Confederacies, Communisms, etc.) that are aligned to a major faction the penalties for murder could also include a revocation of insurance rights after a number of murders have been committed there as the Pilot's Federation would eventually want to take action as these systems are still under the rule of one of the major factions. The bounties would of course remain the same as they are in higher security systems and system response would still be heavy but not as heavy as the high security systems. Mostly difficult A.I. but also mostly in smaller vessels with fewer heavy hitters (but still some).

In low or minimal security systems that are aligned to a major power, the ruling bodies would still be very much against the disruption of law but would also be very limited in terms of how to deal with it. Anarchies or Feudal systems that are still disputed with a major faction being one of the groups disputing the rule of the system. Bounties may or may not be applied depending on how much influence the major faction has in the system and response would be light and take a lot of time to arrive. Response limited to mostly Sidewinders, possibly Eagles and maybe a Viper but the pilots would not be a crack killer squad as the best pilots would be occupied trying to stabilize or retake the system. Several Pilot's Federation kills would be required in such systems for them to take action as these systems are inherently dangerous places to be.

Now at this point you may be thinking......

Why the hell would anyone actually choose to be a pirate under these conditions? Well I will get to part 2 of my thoughts now and that is how to make anarchies actually populated by the people that should be there.

Independent Anarchies and Anarchies in general are pretty much devoid of traffic and I will explain why this is. Simply put there is no reason for anyone to go there, pirates or traders. The markets are no different and in many cases actually worse than heavily traded in high security systems so why on Earth would traders choose to visit them? This should be changed.....

The people that live and need to survive in an Anarchic state should be willing to pay dearly for things to be imported there offering credits well above the average high prices of other more stable systems, also to raise funds for what they need to live they should also be willing to offer great deals on what exports they have in order to raise the revenue for what they need and entice traders to actually go to a zone that is a very dangerous place to be. Let's use Coffee as an example (these are only estimates to show what I mean and not actual values as those would need to be playtested and debated):

Average Import Price:
1500 - 1800 cr.

Average Export Price:
1000 - 1200 cr.

Average Anarchy Import Price (Proposed):
2400 - 2600 cr.

Average Anarchy Export Price (Proposed):
700 - 900 cr.

As I was saying the actual values are not what I am focusing on here, just that there should be vastly superior trades on offer at unstable systems to entice traders to take the risks involved in going there. Traders that accept the risks involved will go to these systems for the better deals and to take advantage of locals that are desperate for the supplies they need. Pirates would then come here for the perks of no repercussions in addition to the traders that take the risks involved trading in these systems for the better profit margins. So far this is happy traders that want risk and happy pirates preying on traders that want to take these risks to maximize profits, but what do we also have under a system like this?

Happy traders that will accept a lower profit margin to trade in the peace and mostly secure higher systems where the penalties for killing players are quite severe. These are just my thoughts and your mileage may vary but opinions are welcomed whether agreed with or not. I apologize in advance if this is hard to read as I tried breaking up the wall of text and making it readable but when I preview the post it is throwing it all together like a wall of text and I really have no clue as to why it is refusing to add spacing between paragraphs and so forth

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Still reading so prepare for edits but point 1 in gold text is: The Pilots Federation is in no way aligned or working with any of the key factions. They simply rank pilots according to skill (arguably combat skill against other players is even more highly valued than PVE): http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Pilots_Federation


Edit #1: Other than that I agree that pirates need a buff in anarchy systems and such and that harsher penalties for murder should be applied.

Edit #2: Seems crime is a major part of the powerplay update so hold off until then and check out the changes

 

[Sanderson]

What would make most players happy?

Didn't get past this part. Because: Nothing.

 

[Sandmann]

In before "pirates already have it hard" and "if you play in open you're here to get robbed" and "it's your fault for flying a cargo ship, get good".

I agree with (and have in the past also said the same) everything you've said in there. There's gonna be the usual suspects who don't of course (ie: anyone who just wants to shoot up other people without consequences), and the ones in the middle who want trade AND piracy to work and agree that space needs both tools for pirates that they don't currently have to make their job possible AND law enforcement for traders to make their job possible. Ultimately it comes down to whether FD want a role playing game (in which societies, laws, anarchies, the interplay between them etc) actually matter, or if they just want a big spacey backdrop for an airplanes-in-space shoot-em-up. Everything they said when they were starting out seems to lean toward the RPG aspect. A lot of what they've done (or more importantly FAILED to do) since then has leaned toward the shoot-em-up. Will be interesting to see how the crime updates in 1.3 pan out and more so if they are expected to be a panacea in their own right (in which case it's a shoot-em-up with an attempt to fob off complaints) , or if the crime and consequence thing will continue to evolve (in which case it's an RPG).

 

[Darkphoenix]

Still reading so prepare for edits but point 1 in gold text is: The Pilots Federation is in no way aligned or working with any of the key factions. They simply rank pilots according to skill (arguably combat skill against other players is even more highly valued than PVE): http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Pilots_Federation


Edit #1: Other than that I agree that pirates need a buff in anarchy systems and such and that harsher penalties for murder should be applied.

Edit #2: Seems crime is a major part of the powerplay update so hold off until then and check out the changes

I agree with your comments regarding power play and avoided that topic for the most part as I am aware they are making changes to crime and punishment but unsure as to whether or not those changes will be sufficient (time will tell). My post is a what if, and my thoughts on what would work if power play is not enough to fix open play as it stands.

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't get past this part. Because: Nothing.

Amusing and sadly enough you do have a point, but one can dream can't they?

 

[Jackie Silver]

Everything they said when they were starting out seems to lean toward the RPG aspect. A lot of what they've done (or more importantly FAILED to do) since then has leaned toward the shoot-em-up.

My impression is that they play the game in their offices as a shoot-em-up and have been doing so for so long that it's colouring their approach.
What puzzles me is that the RPG systems are so very, very easy to do (i.e. "I can do that stuff") compared to complicated graphics and game engine programming. Hopefully Powerplay will be a big step in the right direction.

@OP I broadly agree, and I think there should be much bigger incentives to move a broader range of cargoes around the galaxy, especially for supplying frontier systems.
I would love to see (heavily populated) Anarchies as truly dangerous hellholes with NPC interdictor wings of roughly SSS strength leaping out from behind every rock.

 

[Ben Ryder]

[h=2]What Would Make Most Players Happy[/h]
Id hazard a guess at trading that wasnt boring

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I'm one of the players hoping that, one day, things like government type and security level will actually matter in terms of crime level/response, trader risk/reward, pirate risk/reward, etc. For me, the galaxy is missing security topology in a big way.

I've said on a number of occasions, once players feel they should actually check system security levels before flying there, we'll be making progress.

Of course, right now, you have to explain to someone how to even find that information ("no, no, you have to move the cursor onto a blank part of the map if you want to see the security level... unless it's a double star system..."). So it's obviously not a priority from FD's point of view.


Way back when, I had hopes that players could suddenly find themselves on a slippery slope of criminality, with a minor infringement in a safe region leading to a forced relocation to somewhere more rough-and-tumble... which could then lead gradually to a spiral into full-on outlaw status if the player made certain choices. Until now, though, we've just had WANTED->CLEAN as a single click option anywhere.

The 1.3 revisions sound like they are a (tiny) step in the right direction. It's not enough to create the kind of "wrong turn" gameplay directions I was thinking of (which an RP pilot can obviously do themselves), but it's got promise. At least we're no longer capable of WANTED->CLEAN with a handwave.

 

[Greyhawk]

I'm already happy. I've accepted Elite: Dangerous' shortcomings and had nearly 3 months of fun so far (many more to come I hope). Well worth the price of admission.

Everything else is a bonus. I guess a Tori Amos soundtrack maybe might put icing on the cake?

 

[Cody]

A ship's cat!

 

[khaitom]

The devs being able to force players who have been repeatedly reported for annoying behaviour into instances with skilled bounty hunters instead of letting them reload the instance to be paired with new players in haulers. That way I'd get a chance to blow them to smithereens rather than never being able to find the buggers.

A ship's cat!

..and a cat.

 

[Tiger Bill]

A ship's cat!

Right on!

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

You know, I think you have a fantastic idea! As a pirate, I would prefer to gain a bounty and thus would operate near to anarchy systems as well as within, but we need to address a serious problem, that may or may not be fixed in 1.3: the limpet.

The Hatch Breaking Drone, otherwise known as the Limpet, is a pretty horrible device to use at any level excepting the Sidewinder, Eagle and Viper. All of the Limpet Computers that you can buy have different amount of limpets able to operate at any given time and how quickly and effectively the Limpet can hack a cargo hatch, but this is worthless when each and every Limpet controller siphons cargo so slowly, and only releases 8t maximum. How is a Python Pilot, or even an ASP Pilot, for that matter, to fill his hold in a matter of hours? That would take days!

I understand that the developers are implementing a cargo collection drone computer, which will allow us to program the drones into not limpets, but cargo collectors. This is worthless to me, however, if I can only get my grimey, piratey hands on 8t of cargo. Now, this new cargo computer is all fine and dandy for PvP piracy, where you can actually DEMAND the cargo, but the only communication we currently have with NPCs is through the laser fire.

Thus, one of the following needs to happen:

Path 1:
>NPCs need to carry the correct amount of cargo for their ship/setup, if they are traders.
>The Limpet needs to siphon a reasonable amount of cargo

Path 2:
>NPCs need to carry the correct amount of cargo for their ship/setup, if they are traders.
>We need to be able to declare ourselves pirates. If it's solely within an instance and not persistent, the NPC could determine the combat rank of himself/his wing versus the rank of ourself/our wing, and either try to escape outright, "comply" and then run using countermeasures, actually comply, or fight. Then, his hull % left would determine his compliance. If he decides to fight, and he hits 40% hull, he might decide to power down the guns and meet your demands. Here's some speculation:

Trader flies Hauler, you fly Cobra. He'll Comply.

Trader flies Type 9, you fly Cobra. He'll run, most likely. ---> If your rank is Deadly/Elite, I think he might want to reconsider his escape.

Trader flies Cobra, you fly Cobra. It'll be completely down to rank. Now, for rank (assuming same ship):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're Harmless, Trader is Elite. Unless you're a Python stopping a Hauler, good luck.

You're Expert, he's Expert. Either down to ship setup or a roll of the dice.

You're Elite, he's Harmless. Expect him to drop all of his cargo in an instant.

Now, aside from writing a really long post and my thoughts being jumbled, I do see a problem. Pirates, if they stick to full-on piracy, they won't go anywhere from Harmless, as far as I know. This can be amended in two ways. The first, allow all kills, not just bounty/merc kills, to count towards your combat rank. This creates another problem which I will get to. The second, create a criminal rank which progresses by gaining fines, assault bounties, and murder bounties. The higher your piracy rank, the more chance you will be contacted by piratical/smuggling/anarchist organizations.

The problem with the first option is that, although it being closer to the lore (read "The Dark Wheel" novella), it could get you, a PIRATE, access to the Founder's World. No. The second option might be a problem by bounty farmers who have bad aim in the various RES, but I think a more controlled trigger finger is all it takes to fix that.

Alright, so I wrote a lot, and my thoughts were jumbled, and thus I apologize. Thoughts?

 

[jmg]

pirates should be hunted down, shot in the back of the head, and their remains used as kitty litter.

at the very least, if you turn to a life of piracy, you lose your insurance. I mean, really, even today, does state farm insure mass murdering scumbag freeloading serial killers? no.

remove insurance for pirates, and I be a lot of the cowards we see today greifing would show their true colors and either leave the game or go back to trading (probably not, they probably couldn't handle real work)

 

[Darkphoenix]

You know, I think you have a fantastic idea! As a pirate, I would prefer to gain a bounty and thus would operate near to anarchy systems as well as within, but we need to address a serious problem, that may or may not be fixed in 1.3: the limpet.

The Hatch Breaking Drone, otherwise known as the Limpet, is a pretty horrible device to use at any level excepting the Sidewinder, Eagle and Viper. All of the Limpet Computers that you can buy have different amount of limpets able to operate at any given time and how quickly and effectively the Limpet can hack a cargo hatch, but this is worthless when each and every Limpet controller siphons cargo so slowly, and only releases 8t maximum. How is a Python Pilot, or even an ASP Pilot, for that matter, to fill his hold in a matter of hours? That would take days!

I understand that the developers are implementing a cargo collection drone computer, which will allow us to program the drones into not limpets, but cargo collectors. This is worthless to me, however, if I can only get my grimey, piratey hands on 8t of cargo. Now, this new cargo computer is all fine and dandy for PvP piracy, where you can actually DEMAND the cargo, but the only communication we currently have with NPCs is through the laser fire.

Thus, one of the following needs to happen:

Path 1:
>NPCs need to carry the correct amount of cargo for their ship/setup, if they are traders.
>The Limpet needs to siphon a reasonable amount of cargo

Path 2:
>NPCs need to carry the correct amount of cargo for their ship/setup, if they are traders.
>We need to be able to declare ourselves pirates. If it's solely within an instance and not persistent, the NPC could determine the combat rank of himself/his wing versus the rank of ourself/our wing, and either try to escape outright, "comply" and then run using countermeasures, actually comply, or fight. Then, his hull % left would determine his compliance. If he decides to fight, and he hits 40% hull, he might decide to power down the guns and meet your demands. Here's some speculation:

Trader flies Hauler, you fly Cobra. He'll Comply.

Trader flies Type 9, you fly Cobra. He'll run, most likely. ---> If your rank is Deadly/Elite, I think he might want to reconsider his escape.

Trader flies Cobra, you fly Cobra. It'll be completely down to rank. Now, for rank (assuming same ship):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're Harmless, Trader is Elite. Unless you're a Python stopping a Hauler, good luck.

You're Expert, he's Expert. Either down to ship setup or a roll of the dice.

You're Elite, he's Harmless. Expect him to drop all of his cargo in an instant.

Now, aside from writing a really long post and my thoughts being jumbled, I do see a problem. Pirates, if they stick to full-on piracy, they won't go anywhere from Harmless, as far as I know. This can be amended in two ways. The first, allow all kills, not just bounty/merc kills, to count towards your combat rank. This creates another problem which I will get to. The second, create a criminal rank which progresses by gaining fines, assault bounties, and murder bounties. The higher your piracy rank, the more chance you will be contacted by piratical/smuggling/anarchist organizations.

The problem with the first option is that, although it being closer to the lore (read "The Dark Wheel" novella), it could get you, a PIRATE, access to the Founder's World. No. The second option might be a problem by bounty farmers who have bad aim in the various RES, but I think a more controlled trigger finger is all it takes to fix that.

Alright, so I wrote a lot, and my thoughts were jumbled, and thus I apologize. Thoughts?

As far as limpet goes I agree it does need an overhaul to be more useful. I don't pirate but do trade and bounty hunt and even given that I completely agree it needs to be made more useful. Maybe work off of a percentage of cargo rather than a static number (8t). As far as the issue with stray shots in RES goes that would be fixed by just making stray shots a fine instead of a bounty.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

pirates should be hunted down, shot in the back of the head, and their remains used as kitty litter.

at the very least, if you turn to a life of piracy, you lose your insurance. I mean, really, even today, does state farm insure mass murdering scumbag freeloading serial killers? no.

remove insurance for pirates, and I be a lot of the cowards we see today greifing would show their true colors and either leave the game or go back to trading (probably not, they probably couldn't handle real work)

Disagreed. I think it's pretty silly lore-wise that anyone with a bounty gets 95% of their ship's value handed to them, however if we completely took away insurance from pirates, it would throw so many people off of the role that it would never become widespread, and thus bounty hunters would suffer.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

As far as limpet goes I agree it does need an overhaul to be more useful. I don't pirate but do trade and bounty hunt and even given that I completely agree it needs to be made more useful. Maybe work off of a percentage of cargo rather than a static number (8t). As far as the issue with stray shots in RES goes that would be fixed by just making stray shots a fine instead of a bounty.

On the cargo amount, percentage is a great idea, but I don't know how it would be implemented with the current A-E 1,3,5,7 Limpet Computers. Perhaps:

Works only on Small Ships:
1E 20%
1D 30%
1C 40%
1B 50%
1A 60%
Works only with Small/Medium ships:
3E 20%
3D 30%
3C 40%
3B 50%
3A 60%
Works with all ships:
5E 20%
5D 30%
5C 40%
5B 50%
5A 60%

And the Class 7's will be Class 5 Limpets with a hack-time decrease. Now, this works because a medium/large ship wouldn't stop a small ship and thus wouldn't equip the cheap computers. Also, Limpet hack-speed would need to be severely increased to compensate for the sheer amount of cargo taken from the traders. Piracy isn't (shouldn't) be a quick event!

As for stray shots being made a bounty, well, how would the game decide what was stray and what was not? We already have friendly-fire mechanics, and they will be extended to players in 1.3. If I do not target a police ship but fire at him until he is at 1%, will I receive no bounty?

 

[jmg]

Disagreed. I think it's pretty silly lore-wise that anyone with a bounty gets 95% of their ship's value handed to them, however if we completely took away insurance from pirates, it would throw so many people off of the role that it would never become widespread, and thus bounty hunters would suffer.

I can think of no rational reason why pirates should be given insurance. Romanticize the life as much as you want, its criminal. If you want to throw off the downside of society by ignoring rules and laws, you shouldn't be given the benefits of society .. like insurance. And Obamacare.

Seriously, think aobut it... the games allows psychos to kill people for sport, yet offers them insurance? give me a break. Turn to a life of crime, you lose your insurance.

 

[Mal604]

A ship's cat!

My cat is my copilot.

 

[jmg]

My cat is my copilot.

My copilot is a thairgod.
Meat is meat.