Elite / Frontier What would prevent *you* from buying E4?

again what everybody calls "time compression" here, is in frontiers universe a kind of hibernation. by use of drugs or whatever kind of technology, it is easy to imagine and essencial in a possible real scenario for a spaceflight over several months.

sorry st warp is absolute out of sight. think about my "stargate" (something like that is to imagine, only thing is how to generate/control artificial suns :D ), you would have to pack all that into a ship, that's really fantasy (to produce the amount of energy needet for a warp field or a gravital lens). apart from that, it is the only theory which is possible in a "einsteinian" universe, that's true (but no real ftl, you will have to "bend" the space and travel underlight speed, which will cost, like in st, many weeks or months for a average distance. so there is again the problem of the "dead" time).

any else ftl (let's say we can accel ftl), i can't even hardly imagine speed of light, but ok. but then tell me what exactly should be the difference in the talked about game, to a hyperdrive and hibernation (i wont call it time compression anymore). and if there is no difference to the gameplay in the end, no question what i prefere.

but wait... maybe you are lost into a "george lucas singularity" ;)

since there is sci-fi (~100 before gl), there is hyper/sub space and "deep freeze" why should we change it.
 
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i know something what would prevent a lot of gamers from buying e4.
it wont be the possibility of online gaming neither it will be the physics or "universe" used in e4. i think if players get bored like in old fe2 (sorry that i have to state that, but most players like to be forced to do something in a game and it is really boring fighting endless battles just to reach the next "level". everybody who ever plays/played frontier to the end, will agree). :rolleyes:
 
There's not even any need to consider the stardreamer an artificial mechanism.

You can simply view it as you (the player) skipping the waiting bits. Your character is still in his ship, fully conscious, twiddling his thumbs/doing his finances during the two days you are travelling to Li Quing Jao.
 
Well the way I see it. It just a fast forward solution. Boring moment push the FFW button. In X3TC it's a ship device wich enable this FFW button. And it's called SETA Device. Make no sense. As it just a game time accelerator.

This mechanism is a easy solution wich works with singleplayer games.

Not suitable for Multiplayer games. There must be some solution to avoid boring time. This doesn't go well with Vastness of space realism.

So for me its easy. Realism is important but first comes entertaining and interresting and depth gameplay. If Realism brings boredom I'am out.

I don't need to reminded the hardway with excesive boredom the vastness of space. That's not emersive but more a gameplay killer.
Have seen enough Universe Documentary's I know it larger then my comprehention. So need some FTL and extreem FTL solutions. Stargates in save space do well. Warp drive Hyperdriver jump drive can coexist. Like in reallife we have diferent engine solutions.
A Nuclear drive don't fit in a car. And Jet propulsion isn't practical for cars.
 
I completely agree to the above.

turwhitt said:
Once you exit group mode, and leave the group, you are in your own normal calendar.

That doesn't solve anything. You can't have different time speeds in a multiplayer game, period.

potsmoke66 said:
any else ftl (let's say we can accel ftl), i can't even hardly imagine speed of light, but ok. but then tell me what exactly should be the difference in the talked about game, to a hyperdrive and hibernation (i wont call it time compression anymore).

It works with mutliplayer.
 
I completely agree to the above.



That doesn't solve anything. You can't have different time speeds in a multiplayer game, period.
.

Perhaps you should go back and read it all again. You just keep repeating the same thing.

In group mode: Mission timer that is the same for all group members
In solo mode: Normal personal calendar.

I know this wouldn't make for a persistent multiplayer world, but that is not what i am suggesting. It's basically a model for a solo game with multiplayer elements.

I can't be bothered to explain it again. You are welcome to dislike the idea - that is your prerogative. But please stop saying it wouldn't work or wouldn't solve "the problem". It would work, and would solve the stardreamer problem. Whether it is a good solution or a fun one is up to the individual, but it certainly is a workable solution.
 
Perhaps I'm stupid, but for me a multitude of players in the same game where some accelerate time whereas others don't results in a mess. That's all my brain can come up with when thinking about such a scenario.

Example: Players 1 and 2 sit in front of their computers and start from location A. 1 visits locations B, C, D, then moves from D to E using time acceleration. 2 starts at the same time from A and flies directly to E using maximum speed, but does not use time acceleration (or uses it to a lesser extend). Ends up with 1 reaching E before 2 which is against logic and both look at the clock in the bar of the station at E and see something different which is weird as well.

Now solve that. Note: Talking about different "calendars" or "timers" is not accepted as a solution by my poor little brain, please try something else.
 
I have explained all this, but i shall do so again:

In group mode, the leader controls the stardreamer. If he puts it on max, all group members are in max. If he stops it, all group members exit it.

This is clearly designed for traditional space formation groups - i.e. groups that stay together in the same system and roughly the same area for the purpose of a communal mission. Not for members who are hyperspacing off doing their own thing. In fact, you are unable to hyperspace or stardream unless you are the group leader.

I think what is stopping you from understanding it is that you don't get the temporary nature of this system. It is not designed for long-term group play, but for quick and fun group missions.

I will walk you through an example, and if you still don't get it then just ignore it or re-read this post. I've had enough of explaining what really is a simple concept:

-Player has been trading robots between Epsilon Indi and Delta Pavonis. He has just earned enough to buy a new ship and wants to get in some group combat.
-He hypers to Sol and travels to Li Quing Jao (as it is a popular meeting place for groups)
-He accesses the group terminal, and looks for other players who also want to play a group mission.
-He sees a group with two other members, and joins. One of the other members is the leader. The player's calendar date is Feb 23, 2345. The group leader's calendar date is Mar 02, 2367. The other player's calendar date is Apr 15, 2328.
-The mission is to destroy a heavily defended communications platform in the Arcturus system. The group has 5 days to complete the mission.
-As soon as they enter group mode together, their calendars are replaced with a mission timer, starting at T minus 5 days. This is the time measure that all players will work off as long as the group remains together.
-They exit LQJ and the leader hyperspaces to Arcturus. All group members will also hyperspace with the leader by default.
-The leader selects the planet that the comms platform is orbiting, and autopilots to it. When he engages his autopilot, the group members' autopilots follow suit.
-The leader puts his stardreamer to maximum until they are close to the planet. The group members' stardreamers automatically follow suit.
-When the leader exits stardreamer and disengages autopilot, the group members have full control and split up to follow whichever attack plan they have agreed for the mission.
-The mission is successful. The group disbands and the members go their seperate ways.
-The player's calendar is restored, and as the group mission took 4 days it now says Feb 27, 2345.


Think of it like a leader/wingman system. Wingmen are usually expected to stay in formation while travelling, so it's not like it's unrealistic. A group leader in a military mission will always be the one to call the shots on an overall strategy and movement level.
 
Of course the problems can be avoided if time compression is only used simultaneously by all players (which means all players who are online always must form one group before time compression = deep space travel can be allowed for anyone), but you said several times that groups can be left while the remaining group is still doing time compression. As a result the problems I described and gave an example can arise and you never answered to that.
 
Of course the problems can be avoided if time compression is only used simultaneously by all players (which means all players who are online

No, ALL PLAYERS WHO ARE IN THE GROUP!
Players who are not in your group do not truly exist in your world
LAST TIME!
 
Turtwhitt & Bungarus (and anyone else)
Let me solve your discussion, Time Compression (aka FFW) won't work. Here's why :
I don't recall mentioning about the stardreamer, but here's my opinion on it :
It won't work.
For this example I am going to talk about only two ships, bear with me, this get complex.
Ship a is going in a straight line, no deviation
Ship b is heading for ship a.
Ship a is using stardreamer time compression
Ship b isn't using stardreamer
Ship b decides to change course
because ship a's time is going faster than ship b's,
ship a would need to know what ship b is going to do before ship b does it.
otherwise ship a would only know of ship b's actions long after it's meant to have happened.


But feel free to try to convince me otherwise. :D
 
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mostly unknown players
Like your real life friends or, at worst, internet ones.

everyone of them has to be online at the same time
Which is in stark contrast with MMO players with whom you can play when they aren't.

the result is just an arena, a temporary common playground, which has to be strictly distinguished from a persistent universe where things really matter.
Not if you can use the same character for SP and MP, though some limitation in terms of universe altering would be necessary in case of SP/MP characters in SP (but nothing stops you from being able to choose whether your character would be dedicated SP one or an SP/MP one).

A MMOG is a parallel universe that can be entered any time, that you inhabit for months or years, where you can become famous or infamous within a big community, where long term relationships and the self-organization of sub-communities can be experienced, where the players evolve the "storyline". (In a sandbox game where only the setting is fictional whereas the events taking place are real actions by real people, the better word actually would be: history.) It is a much richer experience overall.
Also where multiple sacrifices in terms of realism and mechanics have to be made to actually attract enough players to make the whole thing commercially viable, and where people talk and behave out of character, and where it is profitable for the creators to actually pad the gameplay as much as possible with grind and whatnot to make players sacrifice the maximum possible amount of time to the game.

Also, if Frontier was an MMO, I wouldn't in all probability be able to play it today.

1) I'm sure this has been explained to you on a number of occasions. It's not a time machine. Time flows at the same rate. It's just a way of speeding up your consciousness to miss out the boring bits.
Well, it's a question of personal taste - some prefer to speed up their consciousness to omit the boring stretches of time in a computer game, others - to pass-by the points made by their opponents in a discussion.

:rolleyes:

3) And of course you're welcome to think what you like (until the Emeror grants me control of whichever planet it is you're hiding on).

:D

Turtwhitt & Bungarus (and anyone else)
Let me solve your discussion, Time Compression (aka FFW) won't work. Here's why :



But feel free to try to convince me otherwise. :D

At your service.
 
the problem (which would prevent from playing e4) is not the time that can be ffwd with a stardreamer.
it will be by; repetive cargo travels, repetive military missions in the same manner. something that annoyes players since fe exists, if your'e not a complete sci-fi addicted (like us). this cant be fast forwardet, there has to be a good balance between ships and their equipment (which leaks in fe partially) as well as a fluid ascent in ranks and related missions, not to let the player get bored of repetition. i know us addicted ones, we go for bounty hunting, mining, exploration (the game) or whatever pleases us to do in frontiers universe. but average gamers, i repeat, like to be forced to do something (stupid i know), so they don't have to think to much, imho ;).
also (this was mentioned for a ffe hack too), there should be a new balance between earned money by trade and the pay for military missions, so military missions will become more lucrative.

in case for a single player game, this would mean a much faster ascent and the game (storyline) will be prob. played in a few weekends, average gamers will appreciate that, even if we fe freaks wouldn't like it.

in case for a mmog this means, possibility of a players ascent in a "safe" space and of course never let the player get bored of repetive missions/cargo runs, if it's not his choice to do so.

btw, does somebody knows where scumkikka lives? i will blast him out of space, with my courier :D , isn't their a bounty on his head?

to the ffe hack; ideas, own experiences welcome, i'm still working on a "ffed3d+" (it will have a new balance, the whole gamplay will be speeded up and hopefully attract new players to ffed3d).
which should be as customizable as possible (i will add a list of the proper addr. to edit ffed3d in your own way).
but it's a long way and i still wait for buffet2 to check what has not to be solved (i.e. it makes no sense to alternate ships specs, if you can do with buffet and store your settings to the game somewhere).
 
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DraQ said:
Which is in stark contrast with MMO players with whom you can play when they aren't.

In an MMOG somebody is always online, and after playing for a while in a persistant world it is likely that somebody you know is always online.

DraQ said:
Also where multiple sacrifices in terms of realism and mechanics have to be made to actually attract enough players to make the whole thing commercially viable

If Frontier want to make E4 out-and-out commercial to attract as much players as possible - which I hope they don't - they will do that with the singleplayer version as well.

DraQ said:
turwhitt said:
It's not a time machine. Time flows at the same rate. It's just a way of speeding up your consciousness to miss out the boring bits.

Well, it's a question of personal taste - some prefer to speed up their consciousness to omit the boring stretches of time in a computer game, others - to pass-by the points made by their opponents in a discussion.

:rolleyes:

Bungarus said:
It makes no difference if you call it time machine or speeding up of consciousness, it won't work in multiplayer because it leads to asynchronus timing. Oh, and if not my ship but my consciousness is controlled by another pilot it makes things even more bizarre.
 
the problem (which would prevent from playing e4) is not the time that can be ffwd with a stardreamer.
Yes. that would be just a convinient feature for Singleplayer or optional Coop side of a game.
it will be by; repetive cargo travels, repetive military missions in the same manner. something that annoyes players since fe exists,
It wouldn't prevent me from playing. Wenn it feels fresh and there are cool things to do. I play till repetiveness strikes and this means you quit the game at some point, altho much to soon. And that means less bang for the buck. Less game value. So I will deside if there would be some value left for me to play it.
Dev's have a easy solution to this. Adictive gameplay. RPG leveling archievments ranking. Such games tend to be very repetive but gamers like leveling and unlock things. I hope they don't solve repetiveness this way. But some RPG features are nice to have. but if you strip it off you still need something decent, to stand out.
if your'e not a complete sci-fi addicted (like us). this cant be fast forwardet, there has to be a good balance between ships and their equipment (which leaks in fe partially) as well as a fluid ascent in ranks and related missions, not to let the player get bored of repetition.
I'am also a Scifi fan watch lot of TV shows and movies. Mostly they are soft scifi. Where it's more aktion entertainment then focus on realism. And cool alien stuff like advanced spaceships, far beyound earth tech. In some there is very rarely fighter combat. They are more character based. And battles are often done with bigger ships. So it more in a bigger vessel. So to me RPG the character and RPG his vessel in a not to repetive way leveling both up.

X3 for example have main story mission they are like quest. but you have also lot of side missions. This is where repetiveness can strike. Story's arent good. And side mission follow a simple script. The main story's aren't to the level Like Mass effect something. But the free roam missions found, they are repetive. This a dev problem, to spend game budged to prof bigshot game writers. No problem for a triple A game but budged restricted one it is.
Solution would be a complex mission system with lot of option to be able to make wide variety of mission type. Wide plot variation. So no tight rules lot of freedom in mission mechanics.
i know us addicted ones, we go for bounty hunting, mining, exploration (the game) or whatever pleases us to do in frontiers universe. but average gamers, i repeat, like to be forced to do something (stupid i know), so they don't have to think to much, imho ;).
also (this was mentioned for a ffe hack too), there should be a new balance between earned money by trade and the pay for military missions, so military missions will become more lucrative.
Yes this is what I like about X3. There is a alternative play to get lot of cash without trading. How ever if you like to play with missile frigate you need your own missile fabs. Because you need a lot of them. For the rest trading can be automated. Universal or sector traders. So you don't depend to much on trading gameplay.
And I like the free roam game play. And dislike that main story missions yield some unike stuff like excotic must have ships. Like they force you to play those missions as must to do things. Because of uniek things to get from them. I have no problem with this but these main story line is doing lot of a little bit more complex little missions tied together in a long lineair scheme. Wich feels sometime like. Grinding. You know you getting some good stuf. So you just push trough. While the hub mainmission shows some uniek sector and it feels fresh. It's something uniek that you get wich doesn't fit within the game objects of things. A special base. The rest is just to keep you bussy and you et something or not in the end. Or exces to restricted sectors.
in case for a single player game, this would mean a much faster ascent and the game (storyline) will be prob. played in a few weekends, average gamers will appreciate that, even if we fe freaks wouldn't like it.
Some gamers seek more story and other like to be free doing there own thing in such game. If story is important you need something like a Mass effect story system. This large effort would take all dev resources to do right. A dev would choose to focus on a story driven game. And drop the free roam. So you get a ME clone. If game is free roam I would concentrate on side mission systen, make it more advance so that side mission have a uniek feel. Way better attach uniek objects and characters to it. Find a way to generate even plots with a wide variety of posibilities. It would give free roaming lot more depth. While a large story dev effort will also take resources of roaming part of the game. Both features compete for dev focus. Often there is not enough to do both well.
Do both on a low budged you get a medicure result on both and a bugfest feature creep like X3.
in case for a mmog this means, possibility of a players ascent in a "safe" space and of course never let the player get bored of repetive missions/cargo runs, if it's not his choice to do so.
MMO use repetive addictive play to keep the gamer playing for long time. The grinding solution. The urge to have a edge over other players.

Save space is just as common like time compression is for singleplayer space games. It is just a way to avoid early gameplay killer, to start neer a Alien base of a very advance species who want terminate everything lesser. EndGame will be soon and agian after each restart. So save space is a solution for low level start. Unless you start with Elite battle armada. And the game focus on bigship tactical combat.

What I like about X3 is the option to do different thing any time to get money. Trade hunt pirate and cap there fighters. Later boarding big ships to get lot's of profits. If you totaly depend on trading and it slow and boring those gamers would quit fast. So gameplay options would be off lot value. For all games, SP Mplay and MMO games.
 
In an MMOG somebody is always online, and after playing for a while in a persistant world it is likely that somebody you know is always online.
No, player are mostly idle and periodicly active a few hours a day. I think player in guild go online to gether at a meeting agreed time. Wenn they are avaible, doing team stuff. Because not all member can, it's just a part off members of a guild. That is avaible at that time. So you go on where you left. And communicate with fellow friend gamers to go online at the same time. Or solo grind in save regions.
Actualy the same as in singleplayer but without the socializing. And as sole player you just save and load your pesonal persistant world wenn you play further with your save game.
If Frontier want to make E4 out-and-out commercial to attract as much players as possible - which I hope they don't - they will do that with the singleplayer version as well.
A MMO tends to be as commercial as it can get. They trive on adictive gameplay. And put them those junks on a fee leech.
 
Jumpgate Classic is around for years and is a hardcore space sim with Netwonian flight physics. It proves you wrong.

As I said before I think there is a market niche for a contemporary hardcore sandbox space sim MMOG. Jumpgate Evolution will probably fail to conquer that niche because it seems to go for arcarde gameplay and scripted content.
 
Players who are not in the group but are also online may meet those in the group and that will result in a mess. Any time.

Already answered:

I
I think what is stopping you from understanding it is that you don't get the temporary nature of this system. It is not designed for long-term group play, but for quick and fun group missions.

Players who are not in your group do not truly exist in your world
 
I think what is stopping you from understanding it is that you don't get the temporary nature of this system. It is not designed for long-term group play, but for quick and fun group missions.

You said single pilots can leave the group and the rest can stil use time compression. There you have several times out of sync. How "quick" must people do thier business in your concept to avoid these problems? The problems can arise within minutes. By the way not everyone associates "quick" with more fun, not only in sex.

Players who are not in your group do not truly exist in your world

You said peole can leave groups and go out of sync and still play in the same session = same game world.
 
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