Where Elite Went Wrong, or: How NOT to craft a Sandbox Experience

[Seizewell Warrior]

Strange to relate I actually abandoned (or at least put on hiatus) my last playthrough of Skyrim just before Xmas as it was getting, well, grindy. Also coincided with getting ED & Horizons in the Xmas sale.

So been playing for just over a month now and while still generally enjoying the experience am starting to ask myself how much longer I can put off switching to something else. Not after instant gratification but noting the same time put into other games with a sandbox but driven by an over-arching story:-

In GTA SA by six weeks in I was probably in Las Venturas or at least the desert, grinding Flight School.
Fallout 4, probably in second stage, unlocked the Institute and started the DLC.
X-Rebirth, scratching my head in De Vries and reaching for the xna editor to get the mats for the URV Forge (at least pre Home Of Light).
Terran Conflict - certainly done a couple of campaigns, industrial empire under construction and well on my way to owning my Boreas or Tokyo possibly even got the Hub (grindfest!) under way.

If the progression through the ranks to Elite and top of the military rank is the primary pursuit then I've probably got - what - maybe 5% toward that goal as opposed to the 60% or thereabouts completion of the above, in the same time.

Sad to say this (again) is where ED would have benefited from being a "proper" SP game. It could have included more conventional missions, campaigns and quests which would have given the player milestones on the way with, yes, the ability to build your own stations and fabs. So while I've just shifted across to try mining and planetary driving, the process is still very slow and the ever present threat of being AI ganked back to the Rebuy screen. Don't get me wrong, I like ED - a lot - but have to declare after six weeks I'm never going to love it.

 

[krylite]

What a salty post. Claims of not being salt, but still very salty seasoning with almost no suggestions except opinionated marginalization of working gameplay elements. Reports of 60k active players per week of ED on steamspy, roughly the same as EVE does not really indicate a dwindling "niche" playerbase of a doomed mmo, rather ED is a genre leader. People are excited for the materials trader, the tech broker is working in the "right" direction and it looks like there can be further additions (effects) along the way this year. bgs "changes nothing"? folks are having fun altering the bgs for their player factions or powerplay, working well as intended. And of course no mention of the new exciting interactability with megaship spots and other ED structures in the future, basically almost EVA/spacesuit gameplay, or eventually getting there.

Okay, so what specific improvements do you suggest?

Exactly. I only saw one specific suggestion. It was " Hiding in other ships. Stealing them. " ; basically spacelegs gameplay. So OP's main suggestion is predicated on future features that ED can't do now but are working on it. I wonder if OP posted multicrew wasn't worth it either, when it also worked as a major foundational step on the way to spacelegs. Sheez, based on this , OP sounds like he really liked the game, had a lot of good hours of gameplay and as usual it's really just a matter of patience for the next 7 years of updates.

 

[Blackcompany]

What a salty post. Claims of not being salt, but still very salty seasoning with almost no suggestions except opinionated marginalization of working gameplay elements. Reports of 60k active players per week of ED on steamspy, roughly the same as EVE does not really indicate a dwindling "niche" playerbase of a doomed mmo, rather ED is a genre leader. People are excited for the materials trader, the tech broker is working in the "right" direction and it looks like there can be further additions (effects) along the way this year. bgs "changes nothing"? folks are having fun altering the bgs for their player factions or powerplay, working well as intended. And of course no mention of the new exciting interactability with megaship spots and other ED structures in the future, basically almost EVA/spacesuit gameplay, or eventually getting there.



Exactly. I only saw one specific suggestion. It was " Hiding in other ships. Stealing them. " ; basically spacelegs gameplay. So OP's main suggestion is predicated on future features that ED can't do now but are working on it. I wonder if OP posted multicrew wasn't worth it either, when it also worked as a major foundational step on the way to spacelegs. Sheez, based on this , OP sounds like he really liked the game, had a lot of good hours of gameplay and as usual it's really just a matter of patience for the next 7 years of updates.

Hiding in ships is a quote from David Braben. That was something he wanted, not me.

And its nit my job to fix this mess. Thankfully. Not to mention, rngineers proved that fdev dont listen to suggestions, so why give any?

And multi crew is utter garbage. When it works at all.

 

[frostypaw]

Listen to suggestions != do what you say though.

 

[krylite]

proved that fdev dont listen to suggestions, so why give any?

And multi crew is utter garbage. When it works at all.

Funny, over the two years I've been in ED, i've seen two suggestions I posted indepedently come to implementation. I can't claim those ideas were the only ones posted , as someone else possibly posted the ideas somewhere else on the forum, but occasionally some are pleased to see ideas they wanted actually get worked into the game because they were decent as well as non-game breaking or unbalancing suggestions. Multicrew works well enough. I was able to learn from and help other players with multicrew. The working differentiated player designed avatars all in the same ship with working skeletal movement of neck, and hands. , and branching off into a fighter was a good step forward in the framework yet too many don't recognize the achievements and progress to future spacelegs.

Hiding in ships is a quote from David Braben. That was something he wanted, not me.

Yeah, I know it was. And with nothing else to think of, you mentioned it like it was a suggestion you wished. Now you take that back, so have no suggestions in your OP, except salt, lol. take care.

 

[crushdepth]

Yeah, I know it was. And with nothing else to think of, you mentioned it like it was a suggestion you wished. Now you take that back, so have no suggestions in your OP, except salt, lol. take care.

I didn't find the OP salty.

 

[krylite]

I didn't find the OP salty.

Fine, perhaps I should have said incorrect in calling "rebuttals" and what is working for many players "objectively wrong" and demonstrably impatient in future development rather than "salty" (although it still smells salty), when FD is doing their best in such a massive 400 billion system mmo scope.

 

[Roybe]

/snip
More complicated than it sounds, whether Elite can be fixed is a...difficult, touchy question. Because it can be fixed. But not with the current design ethos.

Changing a design here and there isnt going to bail Elite out of the mess you can plainly see that it is in, if you pay attention to feedback and commentary about the game literally anywhere on the internet besides here. Because the underlying design philosophy of Elite is fundamentally opposed to good, entertaining, fun game design.

The underpinning foundation of Elite design is based on the increasingly inaccurate belief that time sinks retain players.

You have this soo close...but:

Fdev does not believe that time sinks retain players. They have created a game, by design, that can only have time sinks in it...basically, the whole game, is a PVP game based on PVE trophy collection. There is nothing that can be done within this game that does not circle around doing more of something to reach a goal. Then doing something else means doing more of something else until you reach that goal. Of course, this is the problem with a lot of games. You referenced Bethesda games. Honestly, those games are just a lot of doing the same thing over and over to reach a goal until you get bored with the game. I love Skyrim...but I can't be bothered to pick it up much because, well, killing dragons got boring.

The problem I see, is that people get tired of playing a game. This is healthy. You buy a game...you put in a few thousand hours...oh, wait...that doesn't sound healthy....

Honestly, I do not see any problems within this game. If you get bored and play something else for a break...or move on...that is fine.

 

[Darty]

tl;dr - Loot Is Not Fun in Elite because Elite punishes players by forcing them to play in ways they dont want to. This is anathema for a sandbox game. Its a death sentence for a game like this. Play Your Way isnt just the appeal of Elite. Its the primary appeal. The main reason a lot of people enjoy the game. Rob players of this at peril to the longevity of your game.

Whole thing is great but this part alone is worth a rep.

 

[Ambroza]

I got as far as the bit about the BGS, which was full of misinformation. The BGS tick is daily, and system states have a pretty noticeable effect on things like commodity values and what you'll encounter in each system. I generally agree that there needs to be more interactivity and persistence in the galaxy, but you might want to go back and learn some more about the basics of the game before spending this much time critiquing it.

 

[MrFailfactory]

If tonight, I were to write up a huge post that showcases just how ignorant I am, and top it off by trying to tell a successful game developer that one of their very successful titles has been built completely wrong, I'm not sure if I would be able to look at myself in the mirror tomorrow morning.

The best part:

Gamers have more options now than ever before, and a whole lot of them will simply put down a boring, tedious time sink and find other games to spend their money on. ​

​

Except for you, eh?

Riôt​

 

[Adhock]

How Not to Craft a Sandbox Experiance.

Listen to this guy. He clearly has no idea what constitutes a sandbox.

We have the BGS. We have missions. We have ships we can interdict ether to prey on them or bring to justice. We have asteroids for mining. We have faction states that affect the system in various ways and we can ether inflict these states intentionally or work to overcome them.

We have a variety of ships, each for a specialized role or can customize them to go against their design for moderate success. We could even build a jack of all trades master of none ship.

I'd call that plenty of toys in the sandbox for the child to play with. So I have no idea what you're looking at.

What's missing? Is an overarching narrative. The OP continues to refer to Skyrim which while is an open world and many quests are nonliner, STILL HAS AN OVER ARCHING NARRATIVE TO FOLLOW AND COMPLETE. The main storyline being the driving force that many use to play the game. Once the storyline is complete you can do it again with different characters for different reactions.

Many of the complaints regarding the Thargoids are that you can't interact with them and shape the Thargoid storyline.

People are still wondering whether or not Raxxla has been found.

Others are calling Cannon and other groups looking for something foolish for buying into the narrative and seeking for something that isn't there in specifically named deep space sectors for certain phenomina.

And here's my final driving point home. All the original Elite/Frontier games people are saying are better then Elite Dangerous?

THE OVERARCHING NARRATIVE OF DEALING WITH THE THARGOIDS.

Everybody is convinced that Aegis are INRA and that they need to be destroyed. Why? They want a bad human group to attack. They want to attack INRA again. That's the new overarching narrative at this point. Everyone is searching for and coming up with reasons why Aegis needs to be put down.

Elite Dangerous already has the sand and the tools needed to make amazing sand sculptures. I point to a massive effort lead by player to flip a trade hub that was used by everybody over to an Alliance system just because of some flavor text. There was a story there and people wanted to be a part of it.

This is why the most common counter to this sort of of naysaying is "You just aren't getting it." Because you're looking for a narrative to give you the reason behind why you have to use the tools provided to you to shape the sand.

Elite doesn't. Or in the case of those interested in the Thargoid attacks it doesn't deliver a narrative very well.

Mark my words. If Frontier ever designs a standalone Themepark experience similar to some of the more hidden quests in SWG that gave you achievement badges, majority of this gloom would evaporate. They allow it to be repeatable and people would be set for a few months until they got bored and demanded more themeparks.

I point to WoW in which each expansion drives the story of that universe forward. That's why it's so successful and everyone demands more.

 

[Lanceor]

To this day, I'm still flummoxed why OP continues to play Elite Dangerous despite his litany of complaints about it.

 

[relayer]

Replying to some things, as I have just reloaded both Oblivion and Skyrim with a ton of mods to flex a new computer's muscle:

=======================

Why, then, is it NOT fun and engaging in Elite? I mean, Skyrim players LOVED obtaining material for crafting their "modules." So...why do Elite players NOT enjoy it nearly as much?

Well, er, I'm not sure mining ores and hunting innumerable wolves to make 1,000 Iron Daggers is that great either. [Skyrim]
Insert [killing tons of mudcrabs for materials] into the above sentence. And those hundreds of bad, useless potions & poisons just to raise Alchemy isn't really a thrill ride.

In Skyrim, a Stealth character, a warrior...even a mage or trader/explorer can obtain the materials needed to craft rewarding loot, by playing the game the way they choose to play it.

<snip>


Unfortunately, Elite does NOT reward you for playing the game your way. Want to be a trader? An Explorer? Strictly a miner or combat pilot? You are going to miss out on key materials needed to improve your ships. Period. Because certain mats are locked behind mandatory play styles, playing your way means missing out on content.

<snip>

While Skyrim awarded both the Stealthy thief/assassin and the fierce warrior with the materials they needed for high end weapons, Elite punishes strict combat or trader or role players by withholding key materials in a desperate attempt to justify play styles that otherwise would turn out to be the wasted dev time they in fact were. If people wanted to do it, you wouldnt need to make them do it.

<snip>

Elite needs to provide all players with methods for obtaining the mats they require. Reliably. Regularly. Skyrim does this, and people love it. Elite...does not.

I can't really get your point here, because I am still Mostly Harmless in Combat, after several years in E|D. Stuff like pharmaceutical isolaters? They are available in both Signal Sources and on the floor in cz's and res spots. Just don't join a side and pick up as much junk as you need. I've done both and never fired on a trade ship.

And this is why people were just fine with needing to level every sword and shield in Skyrim from Tier 1 to the highest tier, one at a time...while (rightly) despising the same system in Elite. Because Skyrim awarded those players for playing their way, while Elite punishes them for doing the same.

The only "leveling" you do with Rusty Iron Swords, Leather Shields and that beginning stuff is to carry hundreds of items at a time to sell when your Encumberance is at beginner's levels, all for a measly gold reward to buy that fabled Steel Longsword or Mace. Do you really go back and "level" your beginner's weapons and armor? What would be the point of that? By the time I reach Glass Armor in Skyrim or Oblivion, I've far-outgrown it either in Enchanted Armor or Mage Shield. It isn't even worth it to pick it up.




Whatever mats you think are behind some "you must play this way to get this material," I'd like to see a list - I may be able to help you find them an easier way

 

[Darty]

So whatever mats you think are behind some "you must play this way to get this material," I'd like to see a list - I may be able to help you find them an easier way.

Every single HGE mat.

Every element that doesn't drop from mining.

I'll be charitable and leave out all wake scan data, but that could also fall under the "you must play this way to get this material" category.

 

[relayer]

Every single HGE mat.

Every element that doesn't drop from mining.

Well... here's a couple handy links:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/382797-HGE-where-art-thou

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...llecting_engineer_materials_without_actively/

... and countless others. Google the mats you need. There's a lot of advice on obtaining them, and none of them made me shoot another ship to obtain.

 

[babelfisch]

After such a compelling argument based on a cogent, sophisticated thesis, your post seems childlike, gainsay at best.
And
I’ve been gaming from commadore 64 to Windows 10. Lot’s of Skyrim, lots of Dungeons and Dragons with lead figurines on a table top.
You sir are no Jack Kennedy.
The OP is so very very thoughtful and Dead right.

However, I do believe there are enough dedicated Lovers of the Grind to keep Elite afloat, and new players who stay for awhile.

Now that i better understand, I actually know many people that are self limiting, enjoy limits, are more comfortable with them.
Totally legitimate actually.
Fah on corporate FDev for not making it transparent, but why should they, that’s business.
and really when they try to
Make a type 7 jump across the Galaxy PLayers Complained!!!!!! Hahahaha oh my,sigh.

So, Elite D, what a great VR and Video creation platform, camera system is awesome.

So instead of adressing the valid point Sleutelbos made you just call his post childlike? Isn't that... childlike?

 

[Whitehair]

They really need to fix the language on some of the marketing material and it would scupper so many of the stupid arguments we see again and again.

If you believe that...... I have exclusive rights to parcels of land on Mars, to be used for homesteading.... would you be interested?

 

[Franc Kaos]

@OP: You have eloquently put into words what I have been so long thinking. This game does two things well, combat & space flight - what does it need? a living economy, a choice of one: Federation or Empire naval rank climbing. Powerplay to be rolled into the BGS and made a critical component of gameplay - basically some choice & consequence. And an orrery (personal preference only).

Come to think of it, there is a distinct lack of dragons in ED. Maybe I need to explore more[smile]

That's the problem with exploration in this game, unless Fdev put it in there (to be discovered 5 minutes later by Canon), there's nothing to discover.

This is incorrect on a number of levels.
1) The tick is daily/roughly 24 hours, not weekly. You're thinking of PowerPlay
2) Station announcers change, stations change lighting and marker text. Security levels can change (certainly when involving an anarchy). Black markets may open or close. Particular commodities become legal or illegal. Some ships may or may not be available. Certain states shut down mission board and outfitting, nav beacons can get compromised or uncompromised, etc.
3) Ever been to Ross 128? The Federation permit system you can go to once you got enough rank for a FAS? "Welcome to Alliance Space, CMDR"
4) You can see here: https://eddb.io/faction and sort on Controlling. The top 10 factions in the game all rule over 30+ systems. That only happens because of concerted and sustained focused player activity

Oh Wow! (heavy sarcasm). In a galaxy of over 4 billion systems and 4 years of development, this is the extent of what we can manipulate... in a supposed sandbox?

OP, what a cow ploink wall of text...

What an intelligent rebuttal. Reading is teh hard

[well crafted argument] - OP sounds like he really liked the game, had a lot of good hours of gameplay and as usual it's really just a matter of patience for the next 7 years of updates.

That's about where I am, putting the game away on hiatus until the end of the year (or Q4 updates at least), hopeful for atmos DLC but not much expectations.

I got as far as the bit about the BGS, which was full of misinformation. The BGS tick is daily, and system states have a pretty noticeable effect on things like commodity values and what you'll encounter in each system. I generally agree that there needs to be more interactivity and persistence in the galaxy, but you might want to go back and learn some more about the basics of the game before spending this much time critiquing it.

When the BGS is tirelessly promoted as being the defining proof of EDs interactivity, I personally expect more - like system wars lasting months with space battles (not gamey combat zones of neverending waves of enemies) and asteroids put on collision course with habitated planets, diseases that ravage systems and placed into quarantine (maybe with well paying missions to deliver meds), etc etc etc... (this is where an orrery would come in useful, showing at a glance the state of the system, with persistent hotspots, battles that flare up and end, pirate bases and so on).

 

[Ambroza]

The "outbreak" system state represents a medical outbreak of some disease. It does indeed generate high paying missions to deliver medicine, and the prices for medicines on the market skyrocket. Really, you should actually look into the BGS sometime, it's pretty cool.