Why are Fdev so bad at community management?

[Backelaer]

Both the announcement and Will's engagement with the questions in that thread are great IMO. And the update itself is pretty impressive (though I do hope the bug fixes are thorough). Finally I get the autopilot I've been asking for!

Wait, does that mean Frontier does listen to us?

Now don't get your hopes up regarding you-know-what dear Duck

 

[Old Duck]

Today's minor patch has nothing to do with the complaints we articulated in this thread. Hell, even if they dropped spacelegs today the complaints would still be valid. It's not about what they've given, it's about their communication.

Nothing? Not a THING? Well the "me" in "we" is happy to see today's announcement and subsequent engagement.

 

[Lordxenu]

So? He might pop in with a carefully crafted reply, about how they do care, they are working hard to engage with the community, that they are listening, etc. Its all he can really do. And of course, people will say that its a load of rubbish, and go back to their grousing.

I'd guess what he really wants to write involves suggesting some people do something anatomically improbable.

So? He might pop in with a carefully crafted reply, about how they do care, they are working hard to engage with the community, that they are listening, etc. Its all he can really do. And of course, people will say that its a load of rubbish, and go back to their grousing.

I'd guess what he really wants to write involves suggesting some people do something anatomically improbable.

Indeed and I'm afraid that whilst we started this thread strongly it has turned into a bit of a whinge pit so maybe time to request it gets closed the point got made were now just crying to ourselves

 

[Lordxenu]

Oh, yeah, that's the 'go to the forum' kid from their streams. Well, what do you expect from kids? This is probably their first job. Maybe they are very good kids but why they were hired as CMs instead of CMs assistants or interns is beyond my comprehension.

Yeah think this makes my point mods please can you close this!!

 

[Lunahod-1]

Yeah think this makes my point mods please can you close this!!

Or you can just not post here if you don't like it any more.

 

[Viajero]

Both the announcement and Will's engagement with the questions in that thread are great IMO. And the update itself is pretty impressive (though I do hope the bug fixes are thorough). Finally I get the autopilot I've been asking for!

Wait, does that mean Frontier does listen to us?

Indeed. This seems to be precisely the same kind of operating mode FDEV has used in most (if not all) of the previous Elite updates/releases though. Who´d have thunk hey?

 

[TheSynopticVision]

Indeed. This seems to be precisely the same operating mode FDEV has used in any of the previous Elite updates/releases though. Who´d have thunk hey?

To take one approving voice (Duck? what is going on?) as the last word in a thread that has been articulating, in a rather civilised manner, a number of reasonable complaints about Frontier's community management strategy seems a misrepresentation of the general mood.

But OK. Everything is great! They posted something, all is forgiven!

 

[Ralph Vargr]

They started talking. Could have done that weeks ago.

 

[Viajero]

To take one approving voice (Duck? what is going on?) as the last word in a thread that has been articulating, in a rather civilised manner, a number of reasonable complaints about Frontier's community management strategy seems a misrepresentation of the general mood.

But OK. Everything is great! They posted something, all is forgiven!

I mean, be my guest. I´ll leave your judgement and your own opinion to you of course. I have just made a factual remark in that most (if not all) of the FDEV comms on updates/releases has happened in the same manner and it is not a surprise.

 

[Lordxenu]

To take one approving voice (Duck? what is going on?) as the last word in a thread that has been articulating, in a rather civilised manner, a number of reasonable complaints about Frontier's community management strategy seems a misrepresentation of the general mood.

But OK. Everything is great! They posted something, all is forgiven!

So much this heres some valid points but hey what the hell ignore them we've got a new docking computer to play with!

 

[Sugarat]

I tend to lurk and rarely respond to threads.. But, have to say the general tone, sentiment and civility of this thread is refreshing.. Very much agree with the Op on the substance of engagement and feedback levelled at FD policy as a whole and not individual employees..

Discussion like this is what I like to see..

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I tend to lurk and rarely respond to threads.. But, have to say the general tone, sentiment and civility of this thread is refreshing.. Very much agree with the Op on the substance of engagement and feedback levelled at FD policy as a whole and not individual employees..

Discussion like this is what I like to see..

That is partly because CMDRs who are complaining here were labelled as white knights not so long ago... Which speaks volumes I think.

 

[Sugarat]

That is partly because CMDRs who are complaining here were labelled as white knights not so long ago... Which speaks volumes I think.

.. like I said, refreshing that this thread had on the whole avoided this kind of polarising and remained a frank exchange of views.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

So much this heres some valid points but hey what the hell ignore them we've got a new docking computer to play with!

This is exactly what happens, and this is one of the reasons why this game has been stagnating. To be a whiny buttorifice is obviously NOT a good choice. But to be on the opposite end of the spectrum -- the "oh thank you thank you Frontier for anything you give us" kind of guy -- is also not good at all. For the game.

I know this will not go down well with most, but (take it as an analogy)....a few days ago I watched a Netflix documentary on the Flat Earth people. Recommended, it's really well done and pretty funny at times. Anyway, do you know what that reminded me of? The Elite fanbase. Obviously, nobody here is batpoop crazy like they are, but it's clear that even among flatearthers there's people who don't really buy into all that, but who are part of the movement because they like the feeling of belonging, and the camraderie with others more than they care about the planet being a sphere or not. The same goes with Elite. For a series of reasons (the long history of the franchise, the nature of the game, the demographics of sci-fi lovers...) Elite has created this incredibly tight and enterprising community. Which is great for those who love this sort of thing, and who enjoy the feeling of belonging to a group of like-minded fans. But it also produces this kind of group thinking, where Elite might have some flaws but ultimately it is the Ultimate Videogame, and critics must be trolls for having complaints about it -- because that's what Real CMDRs must think. And if you, developer, are lucky enough to have this kind of community -- why going the extra mile?

That is partly because CMDRs who are complaining here were labelled as white knights not so long ago... Which speaks volumes I think.

I used to be very active community-wise. I've ran a Discord server for over 2 years, I've created a large Elite survey, I wrote for 9 issues on SagEye, I gave some (minor) help to DW2 organizers, and I even appeared on a livestream. I think that my community credentials are OK. But I've stopped playing a few months back, and since then realized that, really, the game was not giving me enough to justify all that effort, and that I was playing Elite in the eternal expectation of something Big to come, always on the horizon, never really showing up. I now spend my free time in other, more enjoyable, ways. I do still come here fairly regularly, yes, that's my weakness.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

Classic example from just today: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/april-update-coming-23-april-2019.508239/post-7725223

Tonedeaf, and proven incorrect.

 

[Viajero]

This is exactly what happens, and this is one of the reasons why this game has been stagnating. To be a whiny buttorifice is obviously NOT a good choice. But to be on the opposite end of the spectrum -- the "oh thank you thank you Frontier for anything you give us" kind of guy -- is also not good at all. For the game.

I know this will not go down well with most, but (take it as an analogy)....a few days ago I watched a Netflix documentary on the Flat Earth people. Recommended, it's really well done and pretty funny at times. Anyway, do you know what that reminded me of? The Elite fanbase. Obviously, nobody here is batpoop crazy like they are, but it's clear that even among flatearthers there's people who don't really buy into all that, but who are part of the movement because they like the feeling of belonging, and the camraderie with others more than they care about the planet being a sphere or not. The same goes with Elite. For a series of reasons (the long history of the franchise, the nature of the game, the demographics of sci-fi lovers...) Elite has created this incredibly tight and enterprising community. Which is great for those who love this sort of thing, and who enjoy the feeling of belonging to a group of like-minded fans. But it also produces this kind of group thinking, where Elite might have some flaws but ultimately it is the Ultimate Videogame, and critics must be trolls for having complaints about it -- because that's what Real CMDRs must think. And if you, developer, are lucky enough to have this kind of community -- why going the extra mile?

I also enjoyed that flat earthers documentary. Loved how one of the conclusions in the end is that the best way to convince them they are wrong is to let them realize it on their own, with their own experiments (as long as the experiments are fairly constructed that is).

I actually think Elite´s community and forums have an incredibly high and excellent level and volume of critique posts, much better (or at least as good) than most. This very thread, among many similar others that you can see constantly up there are a good proof of it. Now inevitably you will be confronted with views diametrically opposite, on all sides. Surely you would not be issuing the fiercest of critiques (or the fiercest of defenses as the case may be) and not expect at least some reasonable counters.

I used to be very active community-wise. I've ran a Discord server for over 2 years, I've created a large Elite survey, I wrote for 9 issues on SagEye, I gave some (minor) help to DW2 organizers, and I even appeared on a livestream. I think that my community credentials are OK. But I've stopped playing a few months back, and since then realized that, really, the game was not giving me enough to justify all that effort, and that I was playing Elite in the eternal expectation of something Big to come, always on the horizon, never really showing up. I now spend my free time in other, more enjoyable, ways. I do still come here fairly regularly, yes, that's my weakness.

That is perfectly understandable. There are very few games that can manage that level of player fidelity or attention span. But inevitably at some point all of us get tired of certain games. Sometimes for ever, sometimes we come back. Either way it is something normal and you should not try, imho, too hard to assign guilt.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

I also enjoyed that flat earthers documentary. Loved how one of the conclusions in the end is that the best way to convince them they are wrong is to let them realize it in their own, with their own experiments (as long as the experiments are fairly constructed that is).

I actually think Elite´s community and forums have an incredibly high and excellent level and volume of critique posts, much better (or at least as good) than most. This very thread, among many similar others that you can see constantly up there are a good proof of it. Now inevitably you will be confronted with views diametrically opposite, on all sides. Surely you would not be issuing the fiercest of critiques (or the fiercest of defenses as the case may be) and not expect at least some reasonable counters.



That is perfectly understandable. There are very few games that can manage that level of player fidelity or attention span. But inevitably at some point all of us get tired of certain games. Sometimes for ever, sometimes we come back. Either way it is something normal and you should not try, imho, too hard to assign guilt.

Thanks for the considerate response. Sure. It might simply be that I'm not the "Elite kind of guy". And I respect, really, the fact that so many are genuinely happy with Elite, that it makes their life better. I just have this, perhaps misplaced, belief that it could have done much more, and consequently made many more people happy. But we're OTing.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

I mean, be my guest. I´ll leave your judgement and your own opinion to you of course. I have just made a factual remark in that most (if not all) of the FDEV comms on updates/releases has happened in the same manner and it is not a surprise.

As a Kickstarter backer, you know that is not the case. The communications void started in the run up to Horizons and has continued in the same vein and got worse since.

 

[Viajero]

As a Kickstarter backer, you know that is not the case. The communications void started in the run up to Horizons and has continued in the same vein and got worse since.

The base game was kickstarted, and crowdfunded to a very large extent. The opposite is true for Horizons, Beyond and any further seasons after those.

Nevertheless I think the Horizons unveiling and in depth streams and posts that followed are probably as detailed as can be. Comparable probably to the Beyond details when it was unveiled. My guess is that the same level of detail, if not more given its expected size, will go into the announcement for the new season sometime next year (hopefully). Every update in between has received a similar treatment to what we have seen today with a level of detail usually proportional to its size, including a mix of forum posts, articles, livestreams etc.

 

[rootsrat]

The base game was kickstarted, and crowdfunded to a very large extent. The opposite is true for Horizons, Beyond and any further seasons after those.

Nevertheless I think the Horizons unveiling and in depth streams and posts that followed are probably as detailed as can be. Comparable probably to the Beyond details when it was unveiled. My guess is that the same level of detail, if not more given its expected size, will go into the announcement for the new season sometime next year (hopefully). Every update in between has received a similar treatment to what we have seen today with a level of detail usually proportional to its size, including a mix of forum posts, articles, livestreams etc.

It was mentioned before, but we've also had developer diaries on the forums, peak of the week in the newsletter and later focused feedback discussions which ceased to be some time ago. So no, the level of communication did degrade indeed. Fact.[/QUOTE]