Why are Fdev so bad at community management?

[Viajero]

It was mentioned before, but we've also had developer diaries on the forums, peak of the week in the newsletter and later focused feedback discussions which ceased to be some time ago. So no, the level of communication did degrade indeed. Fact.

I fully agree there is a difference between the comms about the base game, specially in the years leading to release, and the comms about subsequent expansions. But as I mentioned above just keep in mind that the base game was kickstarted, and crowdfunded to a very large extent. The opposite is true for Horizons, Beyond and any further seasons after those.

Please note my original comment here was simply about the fact that most (if not all) update announcements (like today´s) have been deployed and detailed in the same manner and always proportionally to their size and impact. I can probably link and post here all the similar update/expansion announcement posts and subsequent coverage for the past updates in the last 4 years or so, so you can see for yourself but I think it is a bit unnecessary.

The announcement today, and the planned upcoming reveal events, as positive as it seems to have been received, is not too dissimilar, and commensurate to its size, to what we have seen so far in most other similar update announcements or unveilings in these past 4 years.

 

[babelfisch]

This is exactly what happens, and this is one of the reasons why this game has been stagnating. To be a whiny buttorifice is obviously NOT a good choice. But to be on the opposite end of the spectrum -- the "oh thank you thank you Frontier for anything you give us" kind of guy -- is also not good at all. For the game.

I know this will not go down well with most, but (take it as an analogy)....a few days ago I watched a Netflix documentary on the Flat Earth people. Recommended, it's really well done and pretty funny at times. Anyway, do you know what that reminded me of? The Elite fanbase. Obviously, nobody here is batpoop crazy like they are, but it's clear that even among flatearthers there's people who don't really buy into all that, but who are part of the movement because they like the feeling of belonging, and the camraderie with others more than they care about the planet being a sphere or not. The same goes with Elite. For a series of reasons (the long history of the franchise, the nature of the game, the demographics of sci-fi lovers...) Elite has created this incredibly tight and enterprising community. Which is great for those who love this sort of thing, and who enjoy the feeling of belonging to a group of like-minded fans. But it also produces this kind of group thinking, where Elite might have some flaws but ultimately it is the Ultimate Videogame, and critics must be trolls for having complaints about it -- because that's what Real CMDRs must think. And if you, developer, are lucky enough to have this kind of community -- why going the extra mile?



I used to be very active community-wise. I've ran a Discord server for over 2 years, I've created a large Elite survey, I wrote for 9 issues on SagEye, I gave some (minor) help to DW2 organizers, and I even appeared on a livestream. I think that my community credentials are OK. But I've stopped playing a few months back, and since then realized that, really, the game was not giving me enough to justify all that effort, and that I was playing Elite in the eternal expectation of something Big to come, always on the horizon, never really showing up. I now spend my free time in other, more enjoyable, ways. I do still come here fairly regularly, yes, that's my weakness.

Maybe seeing flat-earthers in everyone who likes the game is a flat-earther kind of thing to say? I don't see that group of people that claims Elite is the ultimate videogame and that every critical person is a troll. It's actually claims like that which I consider to be troll like, similar to your flat earther comment.
I've been accused of being one of the worst white knights several times. And yet I could show you several very critical post I created today. In my opinion all this talk about mindless fanboys is probably the most silly thing that is happening on this forum. It just makes people look ridiculous rather than strengthening their arguments.

 

[StuartGT]

I would like to see the Discovery Scanner shows return, and be more frequent. Perhaps once a month, showing the development side of Elite Dangerous' creation.

The new monthly Frontier Xtra shows are great and I hope they continue.

The interim Fridays I'd like to see a new show that discusses bugs and issues (balance, unintended results, etc) encountered in-game (for Elite Dangerous, Planet Coaster, and Jurassic World Evolution) and how the various teams are working to resolve them, whether more info is needed, etc.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

Maybe seeing flat-earthers in everyone who likes the game is a flat-earther kind of thing to say? I don't see that group of people that claims Elite is the ultimate videogame and that every critical person is a troll. It's actually claims like that which I consider to be troll like, similar to your flat earther comment.
I've been accused of being one of the worst white knights several times. And yet I could show you several very critical post I created today. In my opinion all this talk about mindless fanboys is probably the most silly thing that is happening on this forum. It just makes people look ridiculous rather than strengthening their arguments.

Well, we have very different perspectives on this forum and on the people who hang out here. For every excessive critic there are 3 "can I haz your stuff" backpatting gatekeepers.

 

[babelfisch]

Well, we have very different perspectives on this forum and on the people who hang out here. For every excessive critic there are 3 "can I haz your stuff" backpatting gatekeepers.

I guess by excessive critic you mean 'Frontier your game is CRAP, I am gone!!!'? Because that's what summons the "can I haz your stuff" comments. If people don't manage to write intelligent constructive criticism they shouldn't expect intelligent constructive replies.

 

[Wildcard]

I really do feel that if Frontier were to be much more open, honest and forth coming with details, interests, ideas, disappointments and plans for and with Elite Dangerous the Community as a whole would breathe a collective sigh of relief and not feel as a majority do so worried about the future of the game we all have come to love.

As the OP has said this is the very reason why DE (Warframe) has the community that it does, because DE is so forth coming about any and all information when it comes to their game, their approach is widely different then most if not all other developer teams in recent history.

I for one do worry about the future of Fdev as well as ED. Mostly because they tend not to listen to the vocal community, from removing engineering specs from logging for some 14months and finally readding it after a community protest, adding more grind to exploration by adding a mini game that can be extremely fustrating adding a 4th level of scan, moving the ranking bar for Elite, to adding even more ship modules that we dont need instead of ship functionality. These instances give the impression that Fdev doesn't listen to the community if or when they do it takes them 14000 signed signatures and more then a year. If Steam Charts is any idication Fdev is in fact in trouble if things dont start to not just change but improve.

 

[Old Duck]

I really do feel that if Frontier were to be much more open, honest and forth coming with details, interests, ideas, disappointments and plans for and with Elite Dangerous the Community as a whole would breathe a collective sigh of relief and not feel as a majority do so worried about the future of the game we all have come to love.

I suspect some of their reservation is due to being a publicly-traded company. If Adam comes on and says, "Yeah, we really screwed up with this module bloat. Sorry about that! We'll figure something out, right now we're still brainstorming." and then stocks take a hit, well, you see where I'm going with this. Stocks rise and fall on single Tweets (just as Elon Musk), so...

FWIW, I really wish Frontier had stayed a private company. When did they go public, anyway? Was it after the ED Kickstarter?

 

[Lordxenu]

I suspect some of their reservation is due to being a publicly-traded company. If Adam comes on and says, "Yeah, we really screwed up with this module bloat. Sorry about that! We'll figure something out, right now we're still brainstorming." and then stocks take a hit, well, you see where I'm going with this. Stocks rise and fall on single Tweets (just as Elon Musk), so...

FWIW, I really wish Frontier had stayed a private company. When did they go public, anyway? Was it after the ED Kickstarter?

I don't think Fdev is that volatile that a single comment about the fact CQC might've worked better if it were linked to the main game or Powerplay would benefit from being open only would crash them in the stock market. Yes Elon did lose a huge amount of value but loosing a million off a billion isn't loads.

But it's not just about them saying all the things they did wrong it's making them feel like players not employees.

For example if you ever see a dev answer the question "what's your favourite ship?" the immediate response is nearly always "well they're all great"

No.... they're not they're specifically designed to not all be great it was the core foundation of the original release progression. Stop saying annoying corporate things and talk to use like you are players and we are players there's nothing wrong with saying "I just hate flying the anaconda" it doesn't make it a bad ship it means you have a view.

 

[StuartGT]

I suspect some of their reservation is due to being a publicly-traded company. If Adam comes on and says, "Yeah, we really screwed up with this module bloat. Sorry about that! We'll figure something out, right now we're still brainstorming." and then stocks take a hit, well, you see where I'm going with this. Stocks rise and fall on single Tweets (just as Elon Musk), so...

FWIW, I really wish Frontier had stayed a private company. When did they go public, anyway? Was it after the ED Kickstarter?

FDev went public the summer of 2013, 6 months after the Kickstarter ended:

https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/frontier-ipo/1/

 

[Factabulous]

there's nothing wrong with saying "I just hate flying the anaconda" it doesn't make it a bad ship it means you have a view.

Which ships do you 'hate flying' - I like them all - for different tasks. I certainly 'prefer' some.

And the devs do express preferences, e.g. a couple of days ago:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1115383959679053824

Source: https://twitter.com/DRGCorner/status/1115383959679053824


but carry on, start time to get started on 'they don't even play...'

 

[Kubicide]

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/64pp4c/_/dg42x3y

9

Nice try but no. This is DB's poor excuse years after they changed the season model. And it's an excuse. There is no evidence of customers ever saying they didn't like the annual model. FDev didn't like the annual model because it meant they had to commit resources to develop something worthwhile for Elite each year, and so they didn't.

And lol this is the feedback and response to Horizons. Nice huh? Major disappointment like where's the rest of the promised stuff? Lol it had nothing to do with not liking a seasons model!

Sorry but no.

 

[StuartGT]

Nice try but no. This is DB's poor excuse years after they changed the season model. And it's an excuse. There is no evidence of customers ever saying they didn't like the annual model. FDev didn't like the annual model because it meant they had to commit resources to develop something worthwhile for Elite each year, and so they didn't.


And lol this is the feedback and response to Horizons. Nice huh? Major disappointment like where's the rest of the promised stuff? Lol it had nothing to do with not liking a seasons model!

Sorry but no.

Ok.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Well, Frontier kept it's word on focusing on new players.

They identified the biggest barriers to entry, and came up with the most reasonable solution that they thought they could.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I hope they put on a big warning about open, because these harmless restricted systems will be a gankfest.

How about a rebuy screen right after selecting "Launch", while taking off for the first time in open?

 

[Viajero]

I suspect some of their reservation is due to being a publicly-traded company. If Adam comes on and says, "Yeah, we really screwed up with this module bloat. Sorry about that! We'll figure something out, right now we're still brainstorming." and then stocks take a hit, well, you see where I'm going with this. Stocks rise and fall on single Tweets (just as Elon Musk), so...

Indeed some of the reasons for FDEV communication practices no doubt are related to that. Maybe not really from a single comment about a ship though! But this weighs heavily on any comment related to any upcoming relatively important update, especially if it is one that may impact sales and revenue significantly. If I am not wrong (need to verify sources) companies trading in the LSE have obligations to disclose such impactful news first there for example.

But that is just one element, another element that can explain FDEV communication practices and difference with before Horizon is probably related to the fact Elite and related products have not been crowdfunded for a long time now, 4 years and change. Those products (Horizons, Beyond, the current updates, and the upcoming season etc) are fully financed by FDEV as opposed to the base game crowdfund. Crowdfunded products (especially if those are a cornerstone of a future franchise) put the developer in a very different position and information obligation towards its clients/backers than self financed products (for which they owe nothing to the market).

The way FDEV has been marketing its products since Horizons is essentially no different from the way other companies out there that are not crowdfunded market their own products too (there are always exceptions). Optimizing the news cycle and maximizing the marketing impact as they see fit to integrate those efforts with the rest of their portfolio all the while keeping an eye on the competition etc. I.e. no earlier and no later than absolutely necessary.

As a gamer I would love if gaming companies gave me meaningful news every week. As a professional I understand why FDEV has full right to control their comms campaigns and to decide the best timing and level of details of its communication efforts.

FWIW, I really wish Frontier had stayed a private company. When did they go public, anyway? Was it after the ED Kickstarter?

That is a double edged sword. If they had not gone public and investors had not injected the cash they did after the Kickstarer we would have not probably got the game we have today in our computers

 

[VR jefranklin18]

I fully agree there is a difference between the comms about the base game, specially in the years leading to release, and the comms about subsequent expansions. But as I mentioned above just keep in mind that the base game was kickstarted, and crowdfunded to a very large extent. The opposite is true for Horizons, Beyond and any further seasons after those.

But as I said in the thread that got locked yesterday, Frontier can't put the genie back in the bottle and expect the user base to be happy with it (especially the forum which was so active during the Kickstarter days). And as I've said before, Dale engaged in the forum, he didn't necessarily share any information but he did engage with us beyond a once a month post and a couple of replies. Again that is not an attack on any member of the CM team, I suspect that it is purely down to an edict from on high.

I guess by excessive critic you mean 'Frontier your game is CRAP, I am gone!!!'? Because that's what summons the "can I haz your stuff" comments. If people don't manage to write intelligent constructive criticism they shouldn't expect intelligent constructive replies.

I refer to my earlier post, 10% of the people will always hate the game (and will come in an post rubbish, etc.) but they can be ignored. Personally, I would hope that the majority of my criticisms are balanced and not seen as tanty chucking.

I suspect some of their reservation is due to being a publicly-traded company. If Adam comes on and says, "Yeah, we really screwed up with this module bloat. Sorry about that! We'll figure something out, right now we're still brainstorming." and then stocks take a hit, well, you see where I'm going with this. Stocks rise and fall on single Tweets (just as Elon Musk), so...

I don't think so. Adam is very enthusiastic about the game (both on streams and Twitter) but he does not have the same following as Elon Musk plus Frontier's portfolio is broad enough that module inflation is not going to cause massive amounts of investor panic

 

[krylite]

FDev went public the summer of 2013, 6 months after the Kickstarter ended:

https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/frontier-ipo/1/

Nice summary of the problems Frontier had with GameTek back then with FFE. Frontier had suffered and since learned and saw that it should get bigger and established yet still stay an independent publisher not tied to other third party distributors or partners. And not have a potential fiasco like what happened with HG & Sony for NMS initial debacle of a release. As a legit small cap with good finances and a history of very little short term debt, Frontier can support their business infrastructure with ensured stability for all their games including ED. I'd think it's an achievement by Frontier that they have significant investing from tencent and multiple venture capitalist funds, yet still stay independent and able to upgrade and steer the direction of their games on their own schedule and when updates are ready to be released and not before. Hope Braben stays ceo for a long while to come as ED could otherwise, very well be changed to something very different (wormhole interstellar travel, vistable systems shrunk down to 20 or so, back to static paint backrop again, static planets, etc.) if someone like Todd Howard from Bethsesda took over, who had dumbed down the rpg mechanics of the ES series progressively since Morrowind.

I guess by excessive critic you mean 'Frontier your game is CRAP, I am gone!!!'? Because that's what summons the "can I haz your stuff" comments. If people don't manage to write intelligent constructive criticism they shouldn't expect intelligent constructive replies.

Some of the excessive critics stay and lurk around until another opportune to strike at FD per the cycles as usual. The ones that leave usually come back when a new update is released (because other space games don't last or are never as unique and special as ED) and may say the same thing , game is crap, ragequit again etc.

 

[babelfisch]

I refer to my earlier post, 10% of the people will always hate the game (and will come in an post rubbish, etc.) but they can be ignored. Personally, I would hope that the majority of my criticisms are balanced and not seen as tanty chucking.

Sure, that's my point. As long as you don't make ridiculous posts you will most likely not get ridiculous anwers. TheSynopticVision claimed that criticism is always met by fanboy trolls who try to shout it down, but that's really not what is happening. Take a look at this thread for example:

New disciplinary action for my Kids, mining rocks in the SRV

I love Elite, I do, in fact, I love most of the activities in this game, but guys, seriously, mining rocks planet side in the SRV is an absolute snooze fest. I have literally woken up many times with my SRV at a standstill with no idea how long I've been asleep. in fact, this activity could be...

forums.frontier.co.uk

There is not a single fanboy response in this thread. People just claim that this forum is full of mindless white knight because they can't accept that someone has a different opinion or that sometimes their arguments are just bad.

 

[Viajero]

But as I said in the thread that got locked yesterday, Frontier can't put the genie back in the bottle and expect the user base to be happy with it (especially the forum which was so active during the Kickstarter days). And as I've said before, Dale engaged in the forum, he didn't necessarily share any information but he did engage with us beyond a once a month post and a couple of replies. Again that is not an attack on any member of the CM team, I suspect that it is purely down to an edict from on high.

Yes indeed, as consumers we are all perfectly entitled to dislike a company decision, any company’s decisions.

I don’t think anyone is expecting everyone to be happy about those. The most obvious answer you have to it if you don’t like something is to vote with your wallet.

But let’s not confuse that with some kind of misplaced demand or entitlement based on a generalization of a very different marketing/funding period of the game history.

Horizons and every expansion that comes after has been and is, so far, under the full finance and responsibility of a company that has complete control on its decisions and owes us nothing in that regard (some of those products have even been, and still are, free!).

But with that “power” also comes great “responsibility” and if those decisions are wrong or a too large chunk of the market vote with their wallets then they will be punished for it. It is up to them entirely to succeed or fail based on their own actions. We are not owed much at all in that picture (communication-wise or otherwise, and with the exception probably of a minority of LEPers). We have a different kind of “power” though. The wallet one.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Yes indeed, as consumers we are all perfectly entitled to dislike a company decision, any company’s decisions.

I don’t think anyone is expecting everyone to be happy about those. The most obvious answer you have to it if you don’t like something is to vote with your wallet.

But let’s not confuse that with some kind of misplaced demand or entitlement based on a generalization of a very different marketing/funding period of the game history.

Horizons and every expansion that comes after has been and is, so far, under the full finance and responsibility of a company that has complete control on its decisions and owes us nothing in that regard (some of those products have even been, and still are, free!).

But with that “power” also comes great “responsibility” and if those decisions are wrong or a too large chunk of the market vote with their wallets then they will be punished for it. It is up to them entirely to succeed or fail based on their own actions. We are not owed much at all in that picture (communication-wise or otherwise, and with the exception probably of a minority of LEPers). We have a different kind of “power” though. The wallet one.

Well, we LEPers are kind of unable to vote with our wallets short of not buying cosmetics And I have Planet Coaster and JWE in my Steam library already

As I am a project/programme manager by profession so stakeholder communications are important with me. So when I see a company that could do better, I do find it a little frustrating