Why are we still arguing about open v solo, ganking, griefing, etc.?

I can see for example PGs getting better option tools to create the specific environments they want like removing PvP abilities at the technical level to 100% guarantee no mode invaders, or limiting any live violence to non-random occurrences like warzones. Do you have any concepts you think could apply solely to Solo, for example?
Repped - especially for the logical statement bolded above. It's really not "too much" to ask. And it's a much better solution than "MFE" or Mode Feature Exclusivity which only starts a slippery slope of imbalance with regard to "improvements" for the game. Instead of take away from others to give to some- let's give to everyone. Same principle as "nerfing vs buffing".

TL;DR - ^ this guy "gets" it.
 
Repped - especially for the logical statement bolded above. It's really not "too much" to ask. And it's a much better solution than "MFE" or Mode Feature Exclusivity which only starts a slippery slope of imbalance with regard to "improvements" for the game. Instead of take away from others to give to some- let's give to everyone. Same principle as "nerfing vs buffing".

TL;DR - ^ this guy "gets" it.

I appreciate it. I am not your enemy in here, I am a Pretend Spaceman who wants to share pizza.

Unfortunately the pizza FD has provided us has pineapple, olives and sardines on it. @____.

Nobody's getting their optimal za here, and I think FD has finally realized that. It may be because I've heard the UK has the worst pizza places on the earth. :D

We need a 3-4-1 deal like one of those good pizza places so everyone gets the same amount of pizza with their own fave toppings. All different but all nam for each type of player. But we gotta start somewares.
 
I appreciate it. I am not your enemy in here, I am a Pretend Spaceman who wants to share pizza.

Unfortunately the pizza FD has provided us has pineapple, olives and sardines on it. @____.

Nobody's getting their optimal za here, and I think FD has finally realized that. It may be because I've heard the UK has the worst pizza places on the earth. :D

We need a 3-4-1 deal like one of those good pizza places so everyone gets the same amount of pizza with their own fave toppings. All different but all nam for each type of player. But we gotta start somewares.

I don't see anyone as an "enemy" here.

I see some with agendas- and some who obviously view objectively. Those with agendas vary from "all or nothing" to "something for everyone".

Personally I veer toward the latter, as I believe we all win with more choice, as opposed to less. I've always advocated for more choice.

I loath and despise tyrannical dictators.
 
As an aside, as I've lost my belief completely in True Mode Equality in terms of "all modes exactly the same in practice" because they just really aren't; I've come around as a few others recently to the idea of accentuating and enhancing the differences in mode to provide positive draws instead of negative separations.

That is a good idea. Unfortunately, it is a new idea, so naturally we fear it. Therefore, we must reject it.
 
I don't see anyone as an "enemy" here.

I see some with agendas- and some who obviously view objectively. Those with agendas vary from "all or nothing" to "something for everyone".

Personally I veer toward the latter, as I believe we all win with more choice, as opposed to less. I've always advocated for more choice.

I loath and despise tyrannical dictators.

Agendas are boring. I want more Pretend Spaceman stuff! I guess that technically counts as an agenda but still. >__>

Well, let's do some positive brainstorming then. What would be a good gameplay addition for Solo players, or would the addition of more gameplay itself bandage the injury of PP loss (predicated on it even occurring ofc)? I think we can both agree that mere credit incentivization for anyone in any mode is both lazy and ultimately useless for making existing gameplay better. It certainly doesn't add any new gameplay, and making credits of itself doesn't really need any assistance that I can tell anyway.

Hireable NPC merc pilots with their own ships would be interesting for everyone certainly, so IDK if that counts, but it would make Solo a richer experience and also allow it to take advantage of a number of live-player concepts like convoys and patrols.
 
Agendas are boring. I want more Pretend Spaceman stuff! I guess that technically counts as an agenda but still. >__>

Well, let's do some positive brainstorming then. What would be a good gameplay addition for Solo players, or would the addition of more gameplay itself bandage the injury of PP loss (predicated on it even occurring ofc)? I think we can both agree that mere credit incentivization for anyone in any mode is both lazy and ultimately useless for making existing gameplay better. It certainly doesn't add any new gameplay, and making credits of itself doesn't really need any assistance that I can tell anyway.

Hireable NPC merc pilots with their own ships would be interesting for everyone certainly, so IDK if that counts, but it would make Solo a richer experience and also allow it to take advantage of a number of live-player concepts like convoys and patrols.

NPC Wings would indeed go a long way into improving the Solo experience and bringing it "in-line" with the potential for "mode equality" stance. Most Solo players would absolutely LOVE to see NPC Wings implemented. (I know I personally would) I also see NPC "crew" (even if visual representation) being suggested a bit. And I don't see a problem with that from a purely aesthetic standpoint. Hell I'd love to see that particular feature implemented throughout all the modes.

Completely agreed on the "credit bonus" thing. Currencies shouldn't be used as a "motivator", even within various activities- if you enjoy the activity, you'll do it, and more incentive should be given for each activity outside of purely "pay". (Mission balance is horrid in this game, but that's a whole other matter and way OT, ship balancing too) That said, I also completely understand the issues with the current "weaksauce" C&P implementation but the issue with this is it's impossible to appease everyone in a game that caters to both criminal and law-abiding alike. Best you'll be able to do with it is follow a "bounty" route of some sort, but again it's a bit way OT for the current conversation.

And yes, I do agree at present all modes are indeed equal by no means. They're continuously imbalanced by features being introduced that are not available to all in whatever mode. Things like MFE (Mode Feature Exclusivity) just enhances the imbalance so much more and dials it up to 11.

In regard to exploits - it should always remain a non-partisan issue. No one should "embrace" such behavior if their intent is truly improving the quality of the game.
 
As an aside, as I've lost my belief completely in True Mode Equality in terms of "all modes exactly the same in practice" because they just really aren't; I've come around as a few others recently to the idea of accentuating and enhancing the differences in mode to provide positive draws instead of negative separations. Not with paying people more to be in Open because of "risk" as I see that as a huuge negative separator, but in terms of providing more unique gameplay to make the modes themselves worthy choices for gameplay for all.

As an Open-only, I'm not in the least averse to providing gameplay elements in Solo that would highlight a person's desire to not see any other humans ever.
I am. The more the modes differ from each other, the more this game screams it's a game and loses it's believability.

This isn't about Open vs PG/Solo. But the differences in modes need to be functional. I can see why PvP mechanics would be limited to Open, possibly Private Group. I'm all for dedicated PvP mechanics which can't exist in Solo. They can't exist there because that's functionally impossible. I don't see this as a balancing issue, where Solo needs to get something in return.
Only if "galactic domination" is your thing, I suppose.

Personally it's one of the reasons I never bought into PP to begin with. I'm a humble Explorer type. :)
No, but think about Solo/PG players who are now playing Powerplay, and have been for years.

Frontier: we could have improved Powerplay for you before, but screw you. We want Open Only to work so suck it.

edit: But, I first like to see the statement. This is all on the condition they actually stated this.
 
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I don't see this as a balancing issue

I suppose it depends on what your perception of "this" as. PPOO or the "bigger picture".

If we're all on the same page about "improving the quality of the game"- it should be improved for everyone, and not just those who participate in PP, utilize multiplayer mechanics like Wings, Squadrons, want large "Carrier" type vessels, etc.
 
I suppose it depends on what your perception of "this" as. PPOO or the "bigger picture".

If we're all on the same page about "improving the quality of the game"- it should be improved for everyone, and not just those who participate in PP, utilize multiplayer mechanics like Wings, Squadrons, want large "Carrier" type vessels, etc.
Right, so don't limit mechanics if they don't have to, only because that's the low effort route. If they want Powerplay to be more geared towards consensual PvP create Powerplay mechanics geared toward consensual PvP. Improve the existing PvE mechanics. Create an interaction between the two where the powers which utilizes the both gamestyles best, have the most success.

Creating mode this or that only crap will also divide an already divided player base even more. Everyone retreats back in their section of the game.

Oh well, if the exploration update is a dud, what do I care? :)
 
Right, so don't limit mechanics if they don't have to, only because that's the low effort route. If they want Powerplay to be more geared towards consensual PvP create Powerplay mechanics geared toward consensual PvP. Improve the existing PvE mechanics. Create an interaction between the two where the powers which utilizes the both gamestyles best, have the most success.

Creating mode this or that only crap will also divide an already divided player base even more. Everyone retreats back in their section of the game.

Oh well, if the exploration update is a dud, what do I care? :)

Did you suddenly have some sort of epiphany I'm not aware of that the player base is already united, or it would somehow become united in the future with just PPOO?

If you can see it happening, I'd love a look at your "crystal ball".

I'm talking about solutions to the already existing problem.

Here- although I really hate "quoting myself" because it seems self-serving

And yes, I do agree at present all modes are indeed equal by no means. They're continuously imbalanced by features being introduced that are not available to all in whatever mode. Things like MFE (Mode Feature Exclusivity) just enhances the imbalance so much more and dials it up to 11.
 
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NPC Wings would indeed go a long way into improving the Solo experience and bringing it "in-line" with the potential for "mode equality" stance. Most Solo players would absolutely LOVE to see NPC Wings implemented. (I know I personally would) I also see NPC "crew" (even if visual representation) being suggested a bit. And I don't see a problem with that from a purely aesthetic standpoint. Hell I'd love to see that particular feature implemented throughout all the modes.

Completely agreed on the "credit bonus" thing. Currencies shouldn't be used as a "motivator", even within various activities- if you enjoy the activity, you'll do it, and more incentive should be given for each activity outside of purely "pay". (Mission balance is horrid in this game, but that's a whole other matter and way OT, ship balancing too) That said, I also completely understand the issues with the current "weaksauce" C&P implementation but the issue with this is it's impossible to appease everyone in a game that caters to both criminal and law-abiding alike. Best you'll be able to do with it is follow a "bounty" route of some sort, but again it's a bit way OT for the current conversation.

And yes, I do agree at present all modes are indeed equal by no means. They're continuously imbalanced by features being introduced that are not available to all in whatever mode. Things like MFE (Mode Feature Exclusivity) just enhances the imbalance so much more and dials it up to 11.

In regard to exploits - it should always remain a non-partisan issue. No one should "embrace" such behavior if their intent is truly improving the quality of the game.

I believe that the imbalance only feels worse, because there's so little for us all currently that one grain of rice either way throws all the rice on the floor. From my perspective it has little to do with exclusivity and more to do with there not being enough to go round in too many areas of gameplay. With more stuff, there's less starve, so to speak. You wouldn't miss one grain if you have a whole container of fried rice.

MFE is only bad if there's too much to one major mode and nothing added to another; the imbalance needs to be brought to equality but not through symmetry. Not saying it is or isn't reflective of the current state, but this discussion can be about moving forward into better gaming for each major mode in any form. I'd want to add enough choice so that you're not losing anything in overall experience even if you can't participate in a mode-only feature. SOMEBODY is going to be sad no matter what happens but to me that's the guy at the smorgasbord with one plate covered in everything; I don't think we can keep catering to that guy only and have a game that's good for the majority cause it's kind of how we got to the latest forum asploed.

As far as C&P, I think it needs to be a richer experience for both sides of the law. It should be waay better at providing appropriate and timely justice so that people don't feel victimized by crime quite so much, but also fun for the guy going to jail or escaping the cops. Being a criminal in Elite is actually kind of boring and shallow, and needs more depth involved both to make it cooler when you break the law, and more dangerous/consequential if you fail, without going to the extremes I've seen posted about taking away the criminal's gameplay entirely. It should be a different subgame of "I got arrested, now I'm in the orange jumpsuit phase of Elite".

I saw a cool suggestion around here for a chance to voluntarily submit and be sent off to a mining prison colony, and fly a rickety rig while you operate in dangerous environments working off your pretend debt to society. I would get arrested on purpose to join the Red Dwarf Canaries. Stuff like that needs to exist so that crime is fun, as well as just punishment handed out. I'd also tie that in to deeper BGS associations, so that the more criminal you play, the more likely your welcoming systems are going to be losecs and anarchies instead of basing your pirate operations in the middle of Sol which is just silly.

Also, the food analogies are fast and thick with me today. Like oatmeal.

._____.



Edit to Zig:

I get where you're coming from too. I don't know if I think that the divides can be bridged myself judging by the recent crapstorm, so I'm taking this route. Your route is equally appealing to me personally though. A unified yet discrete approach sounds like a valid concept.

I just don't know if that's possible either to weave all the gameplay everybody wants into a single mode. FD haven't managed to pull that off successfully as of yet. Much of what all of us want in any form is highly dependent on their execution skills beyond conceptualizing.
 
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There are other changes on the table besides modeswitch. PP as it stands requires to not be the same, no matter what ultimate shape it appears in. The shape of it now is just about pear. Imo it can't be any worse no matter what they do to it, and maybe it can be better for more players overall.

As an aside, as I've lost my belief completely in True Mode Equality in terms of "all modes exactly the same in practice" because they just really aren't; I've come around as a few others recently to the idea of accentuating and enhancing the differences in mode to provide positive draws instead of negative separations. Not with paying people more to be in Open because of "risk" as I see that as a huuge negative separator, but in terms of providing more unique gameplay to make the modes themselves worthy choices for gameplay for all.

As an Open-only, I'm not in the least averse to providing gameplay elements in Solo that would highlight a person's desire to not see any other humans ever. I play plenty of games like that, and in fact all the Open gameplay in ESO drove me crazy; wish I could have erased most of the live players. Nothing like being literally The Chosen One and seeing 50 people all on the exact same quest with reskinned critical NPCs. Still better than a bot-train but meh. I went back to modded Skyrim.

With even more interesting mode-only content for every mode, it becomes not so much "onoes there goes mah content to the other dudes" but waaay more like "hrmm, decisions decisions, what looks like fun from this smorgasbord". IDW take anyone's gameplay outright, but I do think that we need horses for courses in terms of mode. It'd take the sting out of "losing" a feature if there are plenty of other things to select from in the first place.

I can see for example PGs getting better option tools to create the specific environments they want like removing PvP abilities at the technical level to 100% guarantee no mode invaders, or limiting any live violence to non-random occurrences like warzones. Do you have any concepts you think could apply solely to Solo, for example?

Personally I can't think of anything which solo or PG could have that won't work in open.... All modes are online so stuff like accelerated time like the 1st game as well as modding are out, and all the the DDF features I want like wings and proper ship crew work in open too.
IF FD are unable or unwilling to store some progression on our character on our personal machines to mean everything comes more persistent and it just take a few GB HDD storage for open, I do not see em doing it for solo. Also I am not interested in arguing a t1tfortat scenario with no mechanical reason
 
This thread was intended to ignite discussion and interest in getting players into open.

It started will the same old them and us arguments, but see some players have moved past this with genuine ideas and thoughts about the game. Can't rep you all, but nice to see. :)
 
I think Open should be fundamentally rethought to make the Pilots' Federation an actual thing.

The PF should have rules of engagement.
In general that would mean no firing on fellow members.
However, there would be numerous exceptions to easily enable consensual and RP-based PvP.
Players could also opt out of the PF entirely by permanently modifying their ship, but that acts as a notoriety flag with the appropriate security response, possibly altered scanner indicator, and potentially costly consequences.
 
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For the majority of cases, if there is an interaction with another player in open it will be them shooting at you. Not much gameplay support for anything else.

Now if they re flying a pvp ship and you re flying anything else, you have zero chance of winning, and you might lose weeks of progress if in an expensive ship. That doesn't sit well with most players as expected.

I suspect, with things are they are, if it wasn't for the ability of logging, even less people would be playing open..

I personally like the way things are designed though. In a real Galaxy, a merchant would be at the mercy of bandits, there would be dangerous places to venture to, unfair tragedies etc ;)
 
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What may be frustrating as I undestand it.... I think PP isn't just going into open? Haven't FD said they are putting in some devtime to improve it as well having proper constructed PP missions as well?.
PP as it is right now going into open may not be that big a deal depending on your view.
But is PP 2.0 actually has some decent missions put behind it and actually begins to work well them it *could* be a bigger loss than at 1st glance. Time will tell.

So the solution is to stop Frontier improving mechanics, outright, because despite it being broken as sin for the last 5 years and in modes where the entire point is circumvented with endless issues around fifth column and so forth, suddenly that's now worth something because it might improve within the single mode it was originally designed for?

Mike. Did you want to take a step back and think about that? Also there is nothing stopping frontier from incorporating mechanics that cannot overtly influence powerplay, within solo (eg via missions) - there is, though, if people decide the best approach to hollow mechanics that have major problems, is to set fire to the whole lot.

I Just. This game needs love, man. It needs things to be better than they are. And things need to make sense where they are, and moved if they just don't make sense. Nobody benefits at all, if the status quo is maintained. It's just bad all round.
 
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I think we are arguing because people have different expectations from this game. Some have even stopped playing and made forum-lobbying their full past-time job, I suspect.

I tried to stop frequenting this forums - but since Sandro has dropped his powerplay proposition, I am sucked back in...

...it's frightening. A bit like "the walking dead".. the topic can't die..
 
So the solution is to stop Frontier improving mechanics, outright, because despite it being broken as sin for the last 5 years and in modes where the entire point is circumvented with endless issues around fifth column and so forth, suddenly that's now worth something because it might improve within the single mode it was designed for?

Mike. Did you want to take a step back and think about that? Also there is nothing stopping frontier from incorporating mechanics that cannot overtly influence powerplay, within solo - there is, though, if people decide the best approach to hollow mechanics is to set fire to the whole lot, literally out of spite. I hadn't picked you for that?

Wow. I really hope I have the wrong end of the stick there. That's pretty dark.

I tried to be careful in how i worded my post... perhaps i did not do it well enough. but i tried to use the term frustrating.. as in... PP is left to rot when it is available to all..... but gets locked to open only and then gets a lot of love on it..... *could* be frustrating because they could have tried at least to improve it 1st before moving it.

and saying that improving PP after moving it to open WOULD be a bigger loss then moving it as is. Of all my posts i actually didnt think that one was especially argumentative.!.

I have said earlier, I personally have been persuaded about the merits of PP being in open only....... but if we look at dev time as a finite resource, whilst i don’t in principle have any issue with devs improving PP, but with so many other areas of the game in dire need of improvement which is content for all, I personally think they should have given those priority... but it isnt my game so not my call.

but the timing could have been better on PP imo... that they are improving it right after telling us they will lock it to open.

all that said tho, even if you want to look at my post as "dark" so be it, but i wasnt ranting, i was just saying it could be a bigger loss than at 1st glance... which is objectively accurate i would say. but no where did i say about setting fire to anything. :/
 
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