Why are we still arguing about open v solo, ganking, griefing, etc.?

Yep. Agreed. And once we've all increased the size of our block lists, we'll have effectively shown exactly the point FD should have known all along...

PvP and PvE will never exist in harmony together in a "single shared universe", ever.

Separate servers. Open PvP, Open PvE.

I haven't blocked anyone here in four years. I actually read posts. By everyone. With my eyes and brain together and consider the words and see if there's value there beyond my existing knowledge. And sometimes I find it in unlikely places.

Even Blackcompany's posts, despite 99.99% of them simply containing them being angry at the game. Except for the times when he has valid points that need considering or some awesome content ideas. This like literally occurred in the last week and pointed out the game could stand a great deal more normalspace flying in our spaceship flying game.

You miss that stuff when you've already decided what you think and are seeking someone to contest with to prove you're right, instead of finding commonalities and unexpected agreement. You don't learn anything by sticking to your guns with your fingers in your ears. There's not enough hands to really accomplish that in the first place.

If you're talking about the block list ingame, it doesn't require 5000 pages in a forum to back it up, it's a button press. Far simpler than all this drama.
 
Robbing and killing other players are functions of the game, extrapolating real life character flaws in people for assuming others are playing a game as intended is kind of sick, to be nice.

They think we have the mental problems.

It's not even a thing that started with video games.

Once had a D&D player lose his crap because a character of his was killed in a game I was running. I mean - he didn't talk to me for like 2 months. Only time that ever happened - everyone else rolls up a new guy and goes back to having fun.

So my experience is people overly attached to make believe people or items are the ones with social problems.

See, I can generalize and pontificate things with no basis in reality too.
 
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Well thanks to all for answering the question or expressing you views. Wished I hadn't asked though, where's the door. :)
 
After 2 years I'm still reading threads debating the pros and cons of open v solo. Most often the debate focuses around ganking and griefing. Why? It's so frustrating to read the same thing over and over with the same complaint.

Because there is, still, a fundamental misunderstanding of ability versus motive, in Elite Dangerous. The developer has a mode, Open, where players are free to engage each other, at will, with zero reason. There are sanctions, if this is not done in a legal fashion, but the disconnect is that a moral imperative exists. It doesn't. Commander A requires zero in-game reason for engaging Commander B.

Because Frontier were naive and assumed they absolutely had solved the co-existence issue no other developer has ever solved with a unified universe. Not one. Virtually every developer has eventually had to split player-combat versus pure PVE only. That belief they had it covered at all? Or that it didn't matter? is patently moronic foolish with the benefit of hindsight. Frontiers presumption was just that; and it's been born out to be a very unfortunate decision that now locks them into narrow options. I don't doubt if they had a chance for a do-over, there would be a split BGS; I think that much is clear, even if it meant Braben didn't get his way.

Please don't misunderstand my statement here. I am not being mean spirited. Frontier had a choice; combined or split. There was endless pressure to make solo/ open "the same". The first time the forums demanded something they had no way to comprehend, and certainly not the last. They chose combined, despite endless example that that was likely to create serious balance and activity issues, for the life of the game. It is unlikely they would now split (the BGS from) open and solo/ pg. They could? But ostensibly this would be quite different to what was sold and may fundimentally break the back of the game. It's hard to know.

And, five years on, that split is increasingly unlikely I think. Which is what makes the "they are coming fer mah solo!!!1" fears and threads all the more amusing.

This is why they are looking at shifting where Powerplay occurs; because it encourages direct engagement, that people endlessly protest; ergo moving it to a logical location and decoupling some of the PVE aspects to ensure there are more reasons for structured engagement without needlessly dragging people into conflict. Frontier created moral decision points for commanders to address. This should never be confused for possible actions or a requirement for enforced outcomes.

Whether something is morally questionable, does not preclude it's existence as a decision for players. That's the disconnect. The fundamental belief that Frontier should forcibly choose for all commanders. I've never agreed with that. Neither, really, has the developer. It's part of the experience. You can elect to not be a part of that, but there should be an expectation of a changed experience as a consequence.

Frontier have given people choice; you don't get to argue if that's acceptable or not. It just is. Powerplay being moved to open, actually addresses some of that, in fact. And I hope that proceeds. Because Frontier need to get a better definition around player combat, and that is a good start. There is a serious issue with how player-combat occurs. I think it's a heck of a lot more constructive to support Frontier in resolving some of that, rather than being an endless bloody barrier to change purely because it's change, rather than recognising that PVE and PVP have their place and should darn well work better across both.

Frontier have difficult choices ahead; it'd be amazing if people actually supported them in achieving those. Even if they aren't ideal. Improving the experience, is a virtually global request. It's about time they get it done.
 
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The telling difference is that the PvEers will let the PvPers play their game their way and won't deride that mode of play as worse than theirs, a freely choosable option of equal merit to theirs. However PvPers won't do that. Not open is the wrong way to play, it's dear or other irrational idiocies (look up what the tone argument is on rationalwiki, the PvPers are ad homming like crazy). Heck most PvEers will come up with ways for PvPers to be given things, whilst the PvPers are giggling in glee over removing things from PvEers to make their game worse.

If your PvP game in open means so much to you that you will demonise anyone who doesn't or misrepresent reality to paint them as bad actors, then you are not there for the interaction with people, you're there to grief. End of discussion.
Not true on 2 accounts. 1) Lots of PvPers don't care which mode I play my game in. 2) There are playstyle snobs on the PvE side as there are on the PvP side.
 
if PP (Open Only, of course!) could be improved and provide the end game content so many of us crave..
Whoa there, Open Only is the improvement. Just read the feedback forum. Open Only will bring back players, and they are going to enjoy the hell out of Powerplay. Content all around. No further improvements needed.
 
Open Only will bring back players

To replace ALL the players that will merely leave???

and they are going to enjoy the hell out of Powerplay

Doing EXACTLY the same gameplay activities and loops as they are doing currently...but it will FEEL better knowing none of those solo/co-op scrubs can get involved???

Don't even talk to me about the "lore/realism" element of solo/co-op players being stopped from interacting....unless you can somehow convince me that Powerplay which represents Economic/Political and/Insurgency conflict (at a level below war) between Galactic Powers spread across hundreds of Hi-tech worlds, with populations in the trillions, Economies so vast they are essentially infinate...is BEST represented by simplistic Pew-pew between a few dozen (or at most a few hundred) active PvP'ers...living Galaxy or Eve 2.0 I'll let YOU decide...
 
To replace ALL the players that will merely leave???
I dunno, I'm repeating the experts on the matter

Doing EXACTLY the same gameplay activities and loops as they are doing currently...but it will FEEL better knowing none of those solo/co-op scrubs can get involved???
The hope is that the mundane task will no longer be mundane now there are opposing forces trying to forcefully oppose the mundane tasks.

Whether this will pan out this way, remains to be seen. I'm sceptical, but my crystal ball is under maintenance, so I can't say for sure. I do feel it's important that Powerplay, barring the proposed tweaks, will remain fundamentally the same as it is now, to see whether the move to Open works.
 
I dunno, I'm repeating the experts on the matter


The hope is that the mundane task will no longer be mundane now there are opposing forces trying to forcefully oppose the mundane tasks.

Whether this will pan out this way, remains to be seen. I'm sceptical, but my crystal ball is under maintenance, so I can't say for sure. I do feel it's important that Powerplay, barring the proposed tweaks, will remain fundamentally the same as it is now, to see whether the move to Open works.

I'm all for PPOO... ecstatic, even! Especially since I never participate in PP.

My only question to FD at this point is "What happens if/when it doesn't magically solve all those problems?" ;)
 
Whoa there, Open Only is the improvement. Just read the feedback forum. Open Only will bring back players, and they are going to enjoy the hell out of Powerplay. Content all around. No further improvements needed.

Indeed to hear the open only fluffers speak, the gameplay is so much better in open that they can afford to remove things from it and it would be the better experience by far still. Wht's needed is some more gameplay for the other modes so that we aren't left in the desolate barren wasteland of non-gameplay that are those groups and keep us playing. The reward they get for playing in so much better a mode to play in is all the reward they need.

Unless, of course, the gameplay isn't better there and they want extra stuff to play in that desolate mode they are lying about.
 
My only question to FD at this point is "What happens if/when it doesn't magically solve all those problems?" ;)

Abandon trying to add pvp since any attempt to do so fails. CQC failed, the Wings failed and the PvP centric partial additions of multicrew failed too. Now if they added OTHER roles to Multicrew, maybe it would pick up. And that would prove that it wasn't Multicrew that failed but pandering to PvPewew that failed.

So why not FD? (rhetorical question, they will decide based on who they envy and admire most what will be done: and that will be for the PvPewew crowd)

Try making more roles for Multicrew that have an effect like the pewpew version that you tried and failed to get taken up, and test to see if the problem was MC or PvP pandering. Remember, as all the PvPewewers keep telling us, they do PvE too. So it won't be JUST for solo/PG use. It just won't be for PvPewew only.
 
Not true on 2 accounts. 1) Lots of PvPers don't care which mode I play my game in. 2) There are playstyle snobs on the PvE side as there are on the PvP side.

1) Yes they do. When they try to tell you you're missing out and get annoyed or don't want to hear "Nope", they DO care which mode you play. See the complaints about PP for another counterpoint in evidence.
2) But as far as I've been able to see, no PvEer demands that the PvP side give in and pretends that the game choice is somehow NOT VALID.

So, yeah, wrong.

babelfish came up with out of 16% of players who PvP 12% are in it for the griefing. That sort of accords with what I see, accounting for the griefers will grief on the comments section when they have no targets in the game to grief, making them louder by volume of posting than the others, in how many PvPers get really off and need to belittle others for no other reason than their asserion of "risk".

I have given how griefers are griefers. If you are playing pirate but it's not the same when you pirate an NPC, then you're a griefer. If you pick on "challenges" that have no chance, you're a griefer. If your play requires someone else and you are unwilling to let them have equal say in the content of that play, you are a griefer.

If people in other modes makes you angry, you're a griefer. note: I don't know anyone who is angry at PvPers playing in their mode, only playing in open making it inherently pvp. If a PG for pewpew was made, ZERO fudges would be given by anyone else. Not like mobius. Because you can't non consentually PvE. Therefore how someone else plays away from them is not a problem for PvEers. Whilst it IS a problem for PvPewpew.

NONE of that requires I point to someone and CALL them a griefer, I can go to what the definition of the word means and point out the activities that comport to that meaning and thereby use the definition to prove the accusation. "Carebear" however isn't the case, since there's 0% risk of actual damage being done in a game. To get it to apply you need to widen the scope so far that it applies to a lot of PvPers who play the engineers meta. And if the meaning stretches THAT far, it is of no value.
 
If it doesn't work, not much is lost

Except the trust and confidence of about 50% of the entire Player Base...which I'd suggest is significant reputational damage...
I'll continue playing Elite for now...because I've got time invested in it...various activities I still want to complete...and I have a number of commitments to Squadron/Wing Events and outcomes...
As it stands I very much doubt I'd pick up an Elite Dangerous 2.0 as I've no interest in MMO type games...
Is it likely I'm the ONLY one that applies to ??? When there are far more great video games across multiple Genres than there is time to play them...
 
From an effort point of view, Frontier has put the least amount of effort into trying to rejuvenate the concept. If it doesn't work, not much is lost.

I fully agree that from a development standpoint, it's really not much of an expense of resources.

Ultimately- we're all just along for the ride, now let's see where this ship is heading! :)

Sandro's announcement may have increased the throttle, but that doesn't necessarily determine the course.
 
Except the trust and confidence of about 50% of the entire Player Base...which I'd suggest is significant reputational damage...
I didn't prefix "From an effort point of view" for giggles :)

Best thing that can happen is that Powerplay is rejuvenated, and a lot of people are going to have a lot of fun.
Worst thing that can happen is that the move is a dud, Powerplay goes dodo, and there is a precedent that limiting features to Open isn't the second coming of Jeebus.
 
I didn't prefix "From an effort point of view" for giggles

:) I'm not sure who that necessarily coincides with my point anyway ;)
The point is that the paradigm shift that deleting one (for now) Gameplay pillar from solo/co-op modes BECAUSE (as the devs have overtly stated) the Developer FAVOURS open mode over other Play modes...will have the effect of making 50% of the Elite community view ALL of Frontiers statements with cynicism...because ONE of its key selling points (both at kickstarter AND at Purchase point) was that it was both a single-player game and a multi-player game AND that all modes would be treated equally...
As I said for myself...as Frontier shows itself to be another Electronic Arts, interested in Multiplayer Only because it simplifies the content creation process...it immediately suggests that Future Titles and/or DLC WON'T be of interest to a significant portion of the existing playerbase...
 
I didn't prefix "From an effort point of view" for giggles :)

Best thing that can happen is that Powerplay is rejuvenated, and a lot of people are going to have a lot of fun.
Worst thing that can happen is that the move is a dud, Powerplay goes dodo, and there is a precedent that limiting features to Open isn't the second coming of Jeebus.


There are some other changes to PP being discussed which look imo like they may be required to get anyone to keep playing it in any mode. I don't think the mode-switch in of itself is going to be Jeebusy either but it does look like PP can't really get any worse as a feature. AFAICT most players simply ignore it regardless of their mode selections. It's only been relevant to my own gameplay if I remember that I can get a LYR-space discount on a ship purchase. Having it actually be the internecine political back-alley conflict gameplay feature it sounds like in concept would be good quite apart from moving it to a single mode.

The move may work or not to varying degrees and people will flip their beans and tables regardless because change, but just leaving PP the same isn't doing anyone but the botters and toy mercenaries any real good.

Whether FD can actually pull it off is yet another topic.
 
What may be frustrating as I undestand it.... I think PP isn't just going into open? Haven't FD said they are putting in some devtime to improve it as well having proper constructed PP missions as well?.
PP as it is right now going into open may not be that big a deal depending on your view.
But is PP 2.0 actually has some decent missions put behind it and actually begins to work well them it *could* be a bigger loss than at 1st glance. Time will tell.
 
What may be frustrating as I undestand it.... I think PP isn't just going into open? Haven't FD said they are putting in some devtime to improve it as well having proper constructed PP missions as well?.
PP as it is right now going into open may not be that big a deal depending on your view.
But is PP 2.0 actually has some decent missions put behind it and actually begins to work well them it *could* be a bigger loss than at 1st glance. Time will tell.

There are other changes on the table besides modeswitch. PP as it stands requires to not be the same, no matter what ultimate shape it appears in. The shape of it now is just about pear. Imo it can't be any worse no matter what they do to it, and maybe it can be better for more players overall.

As an aside, as I've lost my belief completely in True Mode Equality in terms of "all modes exactly the same in practice" because they just really aren't; I've come around as a few others recently to the idea of accentuating and enhancing the differences in mode to provide positive draws instead of negative separations. Not with paying people more to be in Open because of "risk" as I see that as a huuge negative separator, but in terms of providing more unique gameplay to make the modes themselves worthy choices for gameplay for all.

As an Open-only, I'm not in the least averse to providing gameplay elements in Solo that would highlight a person's desire to not see any other humans ever. I play plenty of games like that, and in fact all the Open gameplay in ESO drove me crazy; wish I could have erased most of the live players. Nothing like being literally The Chosen One and seeing 50 people all on the exact same quest with reskinned critical NPCs. Still better than a bot-train but meh. I went back to modded Skyrim.

With even more interesting mode-only content for every mode, it becomes not so much "onoes there goes mah content to the other dudes" but waaay more like "hrmm, decisions decisions, what looks like fun from this smorgasbord". IDW take anyone's gameplay outright, but I do think that we need horses for courses in terms of mode. It'd take the sting out of "losing" a feature if there are plenty of other things to select from in the first place.

I can see for example PGs getting better option tools to create the specific environments they want like removing PvP abilities at the technical level to 100% guarantee no mode invaders, or limiting any live violence to non-random occurrences like warzones. Do you have any concepts you think could apply solely to Solo, for example?
 
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