Why can't I add shields to my Cobra? It tells me it's too heavy?
- Thread starter shadowwar
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Your problem is simple. You cant add shields because you already have a shield.
But you cant use them because your outfit requieres to much power
EDIT: OOps sorry, looked at the wrong screenshot
But you cant use them because your outfit requieres to much power
EDIT: OOps sorry, looked at the wrong screenshot
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The difference of 40t is not enough to create a -25% difference in it's base shield strength. It's more like -2.5% with an average shield generator.
Your thrusters are probably too gimpy to support the additional mass from armor and a bigger shield.
Check to see if you are already at the maximum mass for your thrusters, if so upgrade them.
Check to see if you are already at the maximum mass for your thrusters, if so upgrade them.
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Thank you kindly for your answer. Can I take this as official confirmation that this formula:
SHIELD STRENGTH (in MJ) = [SHIP SHIELD RATING] * [0.53821 * erf([1.0228] * [SHIELD OPTIMAL HULL MASS] / [SHIP HULL MASS] - 0.66391) - 0.0588 * [NUMBER OF RATING LEVELS BELOW A] + 0.56377]
and this table are wrong:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ES69Lc317U/pubhtml?gid=2011892275&single=true
shows Droship has 147 effective shield value with 6A shield, which is 75% of 200, it's shield rating. And Python has 389 with 6A, which is very close to the 390 shield rating.
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I would argue they're balanced in the only way that makes any sense that allows a single shield generator to fit on multiple ships of varying size.
Imagine the shield generator as having a finite resource that it uses to produce a shield. Spreading that resource other a larger area will result in a weaker shield at any single point. A smaller area would result in a stronger shield at any single point. With that scheme in place it makes sense to alter the strength of the shields based on some factor of size so that a puny sidewinder shield can't just provide an Anaconda with a reliable and strong shield when the anaconda is huge in comparison (it/s not fair and makes no sense). Thus a shield generator is optimised for a certain hull mass which is a convenient way of encoding size into the ship's stats. If the ship has a lower hull mass it's like your able to spread the shield energy over a smaller area so it gets stronger at any single point. Being over that size results in a thinner and weaker shield at any single point and going to0 big just results in a shield so thin it doesn't work.
The only other way of doing this would be to have bespoke shield generators for every single ships in the game and not something we're prepared to do.
Those formulas have a lot of magic numbers in them; a sure sign that it isn't what we're using. The shield formula is pretty simple. Take the base strength, look at the difference between hull mass and optimal mass and create a modifier to the base strength based on the linear interpolation between the shields best and worst modifier depending on whether you're over or under weight.
If you're exactly at the optimised mass then you'd get a modifier of 1 so no change.
A C2 shield generator has 28t 55t 138t mass curve and modifier limits of 1.5 to 0.5. So being at 28t would give you a modifier of 1.5 to base strength. Being at 138t would give you a 0.5 modifier to base strength. Being somewhere in between would be a linear interpolation of those values and 1.
Yes I understand bigger ships need bigger shields, that's why a Cobra needs a class 4 shield and a Viper needs a class 3 shield, but an E rating shield on a Viper should not give better protection than an A rating, larger shield on a Cobra. IMO anyway.
In fact a class 4 shield seems to give better protection to an ASP, because of the power supply I assume, than to a cobra.
Edit: Actually just looking at your last post, I could be looking at a table than is incorrect?
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Ah, good old y = mx + c
But wait, I remember my engineering maths telling me a linear system is one that can be described by a second order differential equation . . . .
The viper has a better base shield strength than the Cobra because it's geared towards combat. The cobra isn't and has a significantly better armour base strength.
you are making this nerd very happy. I love learning how things work behind the scene. Thank you!
That still leaves the Dropship at a very uncomfortable situation. Where it's max effective shield strength can't even reach 1*shield rating (shield rating which isn't even very high) due to Hull Mass > biggest shields optimal hull mass it can install.
But other ships can go up to 1.5x their rating as they can install shields whose optimal mass is higher than their ship hull mass... (unless I messed up my linear interpolation calculations, a Python would get 1.35xshield rating for example. and dropship seen on a medium pad seem no bigger than a python on a medium pad, if not smaller. And with your previous illustration of "how thin a shield is stretched over the size". 1.35x versus 0.95x doesn't seem like intended...)
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and the Asp compared to the Cobra? Even with the same sized shield. Or is the table wrong?
But that formula is a curve-fit to the actual shield strengths from testing in-game, i.e. they repesent what we actually get to play with. Obviously when you try to fit a curve to data points you never get exactly right values and coefficients, but it's the best we can do without inside information. Obviously it's not the exact formula you've programmed - but it's a bit like saying f=9.82*m is not the right formula for determining weight, because you determine the spacetime curvature created by the earth at each point in space to calculate the individual force on each point-mass and then summing it up for the entire object.
And as you can see, 0.5*erf() + 0.5 in that formula will indeed vary roughly like you're describing.
edit: What we don't know for sure is if the scaling is right, because when we were testing we didn't know what the "Shields" value actually was, and what unit to present the values we tested. So the whole formula could be off by small or large factor.
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That tables is wrong as far as I can see. But the asp has better base shields than the cobra so as long as it can fit something that is optimised for it's hull mass or better it will end up with better overall shields.
But that formula is a curve-fit to the actual shield strengths from testing in-game, i.e. they repesent what we actually get to play with. Obviously when you try to fit a curve to data points you never get exactly right values and coefficients, but it's the best we can do without inside information. Obviously it's not the exact formula you've programmed - but it's a bit like saying f=9.82*m is not the right formula for determining weight, because you determine the spacetime curvature created by the earth at each point in space to calculate the individual force on each point-mass and then summing it up for the entire object.
And as you can see, 0.5*erf() + 0.5 in that formula will indeed vary roughly like you're describing.
edit: What we don't know for sure is if the scaling is right, because when we were testing we didn't know what the "Shields" value actually was, and what unit to present the values we tested. So the whole formula could be off by small or large factor.
In those tests does it take into account that firing on a ship will result in a varying amount of actual damage dealt based on the size and type of weapon and the size of the ship? Sidewinders firing pulse lasers at an Anaconda for example get their damaged cut to 1/3 their normal damage potential. That might throw such a test in game because you don't know the exact numbers behind how weapons and ships compare to one another other than the vague notion that small weapons are weak against big ships.
Didn't find any better screenshots sorry!
Python on medium Pad: http://i.imgur.com/tLzURs7.jpg
Dropship on medium Pad: http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/elitedangerous.gamepedia.com/4/4f/Federal_Dropship.jpg
if you check the circles on the ground you can see that Drophip ain't bigger really than Python.
(I apologize about harping on and on about the Dropship. I really love it visually and would love to fly it but it seems seriously lacking at the moment)
Python on medium Pad: http://i.imgur.com/tLzURs7.jpg
Dropship on medium Pad: http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/elitedangerous.gamepedia.com/4/4f/Federal_Dropship.jpg
if you check the circles on the ground you can see that Drophip ain't bigger really than Python.
(I apologize about harping on and on about the Dropship. I really love it visually and would love to fly it but it seems seriously lacking at the moment)
I don't think so, but I won't say for sure. I was mostly just a guinea pig in my Anaconda and helped with the math while Jon and others did most of the testing. But it sounds like there's more testing to be done (that thing with the lasers would be some of the inside info we didn't have!). Thanks for the information.
Ok, sorry for all these questions, but it’s good to get some game designer feedback on this one.
So the below data, for shield strength of a class 4 shield on a cobra and an Asp, appears to say a Class 4 shield is stronger on the much larger Asp. You can confirm this is wrong?
Shield Capacity (in MJ)
Ship--------Shield Class -------E------D------C------B-------A
Cobra Mk. III------4------------61.7---66.4---71.1---75.8----80.6
Asp Explorer-------4 -----------76.6---84.8---93.1---101.3---109.5
It would be a lot more useful if we could just see ‘shield strength’ in the outfitting menu.
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Cobra can also support class 4 shields. However, you may install a class 3 shield if you want to conserve mass and/or power consumption. The shields "Max mass" must support at least your ships MAX mass.
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That info has been available since it went in. You just don't have the stats in outfitting to look at but if you want to ensure you're doing the max damage the weapon is capable of you need to use a huge weapon as that will always do it's best against any ship in the game.
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