Oh, so THAT's what we can't see comets!
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I was talking about CQC
Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?
- Thread starter erock25
- Start date
Oh, so THAT's what we can't see comets!
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I was talking about CQC
I wouldn't know what you're talking about LYR as I practically don't play the game at all so good fail on trying to paint me as anything. CQC sucks and with power ups and gimballed weapons I'm not seeing much skill. Just good map knowledge giving a huge advantage.
Switch it to fixed weapons only and no power ups and you're talking a mans' game then
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Majinvash
Banned
But in a game with Rock, Paper, Scissors. Which I would love ED to be.
Unless there is only one option of each. A meta will be created.
You might in a game have a few variations of your scissors. One version of the rock is going to be the best at blunting one of those scissor types.
I have played PVP since about hmmm Command and Conquer.
C&C Meta. Jeep or nod bike swarm
CS - AK, M4 or AWM
COD MW - AK47 Silenced
BF2 - Infantry king was Medic with the G36
BF4 - Was M4 HK416 but then i haven't played it since they took the recoil out of the DMR's and give them to all ranks. So I imagine its vastly different.
Majinvash
The Voice of Open
lol ok xD still, I took power ups as some metaphor for "knowing what things to choose" because that seems for many people to still be a sercet. I see a lot ship designs even if not PVP oriented which are just strangely built and can be imporved by just swappping some systems suddnely doing the same as before just more efficient.
@majin, well yes C&C has always had a horrible meta tbh. It was never a balanced game.
Have you ever played homeworld (not the crappy remastered one). This game for examply ahd a indefinitely better balance where tactics and positioning mattered above anything else.
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Well, I know how to keep 4 pips to SYS when I am under fire (I have a macro on my joystick), I know how to pop SCB on time...
...but I have more fun keeping 4 pips to ENG, boosting frequently while keeping the best pitch, disappearing from the scanner and hold my fire only to fire a deadly blow at the right moment...etc...
Two different playstyles. I have as much challenge at fighting a SCB FdL as I have against a shieldless FdL if the commander is skilled.
Majinvash
Banned
In anything wing related, having shields on a larger ship takes the teeth out of the ship to the point that its only role is to mass lock and be a target. The Cutter is strongest but will still run the moment its shields drop.
This makes the FAS and FDL, so much the meta of choice.
A Corvette sitting with 4 pips to shields cannot put out much damage and is a huge easy target.
When its shields drop, it is dead and buried usually before it can high wake out. 2 Huge, 1 Large, 2 Medium, 2 small.
A SR FDL can run with 3-4 pips to weapons at all times. 1 Huge, 4 Medium.
You are getting way more DPS out of the FDL and it is a harder to hit, much more able ship.
Lets assume that the Corvette is running a shield and has 4 Cell banks, 1 Interdictor. The rest are HRP with Mil armour it has 2735 HP
Same situation FDL running full HRP + interdictor, has 2028 hit points. ( FAS 2610 hit points 2 Large 2 Medium )
Something needs to be done, it makes PVP dull at the moment and having the large ships being of real use was awesome back when you could SCB chugg.
Majinvash
The Voice of Open
This makes the FAS and FDL, so much the meta of choice.
A Corvette sitting with 4 pips to shields cannot put out much damage and is a huge easy target.
When its shields drop, it is dead and buried usually before it can high wake out. 2 Huge, 1 Large, 2 Medium, 2 small.
A SR FDL can run with 3-4 pips to weapons at all times. 1 Huge, 4 Medium.
You are getting way more DPS out of the FDL and it is a harder to hit, much more able ship.
Lets assume that the Corvette is running a shield and has 4 Cell banks, 1 Interdictor. The rest are HRP with Mil armour it has 2735 HP
Same situation FDL running full HRP + interdictor, has 2028 hit points. ( FAS 2610 hit points 2 Large 2 Medium )
Something needs to be done, it makes PVP dull at the moment and having the large ships being of real use was awesome back when you could SCB chugg.
Majinvash
The Voice of Open
I don't see a problem with the HRP builds. I was doing this long before it was popular and fighting ships running this isn't too difficult. Just like all things it just takes practice. If you are good at using fixed weapons a ship that goes silent isn't a problem. Also if you stay within 500 meters it doesn't matter what they do you can still lock on to them. The biggest issue people have with the HRP stealth builds is it can be confusing when you face them, constantly loosing weapons lock and having to rely on visual sight to track them. But with anything, given enough practice you get used to it and might even have an advantage. I fought a Clipper in my DBS and the Clipper ran when it got down to 66% hull. It didn't get past my prismatic shields. No SCB's.
Hey. I haven't played E
Because it's op at the moment, that's why.
There was a bug report concerning wing mechanics and targetability, hopefully till 2.1 it will be kind of fixed. Currently, a wing of 2 or more stealth ships cannot be so easily countered by a wing of 2 shielded ships, because, they only reveal themselves to the target they are hitting (or you need to be really really near to them for you to target them). Also because of not using shields, you can have a spam of alpha-strike weapons (like rails or plasmas), thus resulting higher dps than a shielded ship which won't have maxed damage output.
Also it was the huge nerf of the shield cell banks mechanics in a combo of heat levels that led to the silent running meta. Currently, there is the huge 15-20secs (for switching shield cell banks) that comes to make the things even more against shielded ships.
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I agree with you mostly, but you also hit on kinda what other people have been as well - fighting a clipper in a DBS is exactly the sort of counter the game wants and needs, small ships to counter the hull builds (because they have the maneuverability to stay close) is a great idea, it just doesn't work out like that in practice because the FDL with 4 pips to engines is more maneuverable than the DBS with 2-0, so its countering its own counter.
A lot of these comments appear to be made by people who just need to fly more and push their comfort zones. I'm no master pvp'er, but I know enough to realize how wrong a lot of these absolute-truth statements are. I just hope FD doesn't act on them - they honestly shouldn't even be thinking about balance right now with the other stuff on their plate.
First, the notion that it's lame that someone running a full combat build can kill your multipurpose build is ridiculous. If you want to pack your ship full of srvs, docking computers, massage room, deluxe cookware etc - that's your choice. Live with that choice and go solo if you can't, or learn how to run. I have never not been given the option to run other than when I overcooked myself at 352 degrees. And the statements that shielded builds can't cope is just false. You're seeing stealth builds because they're fun, and because they're easier on smaller ships (which again is great! I'm actually getting to fight more than 5 cookie cutter ship types!!). Again, not posturing as z4, but anecdotally, out of the 23 cmdr's I've fought this past week (non-gank folks) - two gave me trouble while running a stealth FAS. One was a wing of 3, two of them shielded builds. And the one that really made me run was a conda running prismatics. To say shields are passe is false.
This is nonsense. If I fit my vette with a few turrets and the rest fixed, and I fit a-grade sensors, they will track you within a certain distance, around 1.5+ I believe. I have learned this on both sides, spar-testing with the vette, and sparring against a vette with my stealth FAS and FDL. Yeah, it's low damage, but it keeps my stealth build from hugging you, and if I joust for range then your fixed will perform well.
And torpedoes aren't worthless. Missiles, yes, but torps can be used more effectively than many other weapons in game. And saying that you can't lock on silent running ships illustrates very clearly that you haven't actually tried it in game. First, cmdrs break stealth, and fairly often. Heat sinks do not equal infinite stealth. Second, upgrade your sensors.
Yeah, you're wrong. And see above on turrets. They all have a place, an admittedly sad place on some of the turrets in regard to actually hitting (looking at you cannons).
And everyone here knows you can still see the ships in stealth on radar within firing range right? I know they have that mind altering voodoo blinking signal... but it's there. Or have you gotten too used to the meta of lightweight d-sensors so you can highwake out from battle far enough?
First, the notion that it's lame that someone running a full combat build can kill your multipurpose build is ridiculous. If you want to pack your ship full of srvs, docking computers, massage room, deluxe cookware etc - that's your choice. Live with that choice and go solo if you can't, or learn how to run. I have never not been given the option to run other than when I overcooked myself at 352 degrees. And the statements that shielded builds can't cope is just false. You're seeing stealth builds because they're fun, and because they're easier on smaller ships (which again is great! I'm actually getting to fight more than 5 cookie cutter ship types!!). Again, not posturing as z4, but anecdotally, out of the 23 cmdr's I've fought this past week (non-gank folks) - two gave me trouble while running a stealth FAS. One was a wing of 3, two of them shielded builds. And the one that really made me run was a conda running prismatics. To say shields are passe is false.
This is nonsense. If I fit my vette with a few turrets and the rest fixed, and I fit a-grade sensors, they will track you within a certain distance, around 1.5+ I believe. I have learned this on both sides, spar-testing with the vette, and sparring against a vette with my stealth FAS and FDL. Yeah, it's low damage, but it keeps my stealth build from hugging you, and if I joust for range then your fixed will perform well.
And torpedoes aren't worthless. Missiles, yes, but torps can be used more effectively than many other weapons in game. And saying that you can't lock on silent running ships illustrates very clearly that you haven't actually tried it in game. First, cmdrs break stealth, and fairly often. Heat sinks do not equal infinite stealth. Second, upgrade your sensors.
Yeah, you're wrong. And see above on turrets. They all have a place, an admittedly sad place on some of the turrets in regard to actually hitting (looking at you cannons).
And everyone here knows you can still see the ships in stealth on radar within firing range right? I know they have that mind altering voodoo blinking signal... but it's there. Or have you gotten too used to the meta of lightweight d-sensors so you can highwake out from battle far enough?
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Their place is PvE, its a thread about PvP, if you use turrets in a 1v1 I guarantee you will lose, if you use gimbals you will lose vs anyone semi-competent or better. (which your video is proof of btw
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I agree. But as with the SCB nerf the people that don't agree how other people play will continue to complain non-stop about it until FD nerfs it. Then players will find a new wrinkle for the new nerf and people will complain again until that gets nerfed.
It's sad really.
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I use turrets in PvP all the time. Like he said. It's situational . It's not good in every situation but it does have it's place.
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Swap them and you'd do better
if its on a conda/corvette/cutter i'll let you off though as your not gonna get decent uptime with fixed on every point with them anyway.It is on my CondaSwap them and you'd do better
It is on my Conda
Yeah i'll accept that
the big 3 have their own issues that turrets help with, the turrets still suck but they are the best thing available (hopefully the weapon changes will address that). But the fact that they are the best you can put in some of the large ship slots doesn't change that they suck really, I don't tend to throw the big 3 in my ramblings about PvP because I don't count a ship that can't force a fight, and I don't have enough experience with wings to comment on their role in a group. I deal in straight up 1v1 or 2v2 really.Their place is PvE, its a thread about PvP, if you use turrets in a 1v1 I guarantee you will lose, if you use gimbals you will lose vs anyone semi-competent or better. (which your video is proof of btw
LOL. z4 taking on that many cmdrs for that long and you say it's proof that gimbals don't work? And the pvp comment gave me a good laugh.
Ever tried aiming the rails in a turning battle with someone dropping shock mines all over the place? Pain in my a.....
I have a completely different opinion. The way I see it, CQC is unskilled because whoever shoots first typically wins a 1v1. If I see you first you're dead. If you see me first I'm dead. You die so fast in CQC that if someone gets behind you you'll be dead by the time you turn around. It's nothing like open play, where fights last several minutes. let your guard down for a second and you die...
But thats really just the tip of iceberg when it comes to CQC being utterly awful. Add in OP high lvl weapons and ship modules, awful queue times, and solo queuers being put with group queues in basically every single match and you have a recipe for anti-fun. What makes it even worse is the fact that groups are matched against solo queues in so called "free for all" and the group just realizes who the best pilot in the game is, and just focus on them every single time. It's stupid because I queue as SOLO for FREE FOR ALL, and ITS A FREAKING 5 V 1. like OK FD. And people wonder why I say CQC is terrible and I won't touch it.
PVP in open is pretty slow (as opposed to CQC where you spawn and 5 people are shooting you from behind, 5 seconds later you die and respawn with enemies behind you again), but at least in Open the most experienced and skilled player can typically win.
Yes you can get advantages from numbers and superior builds in open play, but those problems are honestly much worse in CQC.
CQC Is just cod in space. No skill required, it's just the E: D equivalent of run n gun gameplay.
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Welcome to the Buff/Nerf roundabout that balancing for PvP provides. Please enjoy your time spent splitting hairs and repeating the word Meta until it looses all meaning. Once a player comes up with a build that convinces players that it has an advantage, boom, a shift will come. No one wants to feel like they are less that competitive, that is the basis for FotM builds and their proliferation. FD should just build their game, add the equipment they think is fun and fits into the world they are creating, and never ever look at threads calling for balance.
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