Why do all the PVP builds I see posted not use shields?

That is why I find PVP so dull - you have to build for the current FOTM meta. There's no point in flying a Combat Asp, when all I want to fly is an Asp.
http://coriolis.io/outfit/asp/25B5A...9020202022d2d2929292727.AwRj4ytEg===.Aw18WQ==

There's your Asp.


One of the problems with the way ship builds are done is that we CAN stack SCBs, HRPs, and SBs.
I remember at release we were limited to one SCB module (which had higher ammo than current) maximum - I have no idea why FD thought it was a good idea to change this. Its pretty obvious that being able to stack health buffs does nothing except create unbalanced builds that can only be countered by another dedicated PVP build- I mean just look at the Asp build I just linked, it has nearly ten times the armor points as a standard Asp. A pilot in a non combat asp isn't going to stand a chance against a PVP one.
 

dxm55

Banned
HRPs should be limited to one per ship. And firing while in SR doesn't even reveal your ship much on scanners, which it should do more since there's heat and energy expended.
Right now the point of PVP is how much you can stack armor and then SR.

Stealth needs to have a relook at implementation. Stealth should come with penalties, like weaker hulls, and not bonuses. In most other games, stealth ships are usually fragile or underarmed, or even less maneuverable.

Apparently in ED, stealth = maneuverable instakill tanks.

Broken.


CQC is fun. You get little ships that are more fragile. You live or die as a consequence of your flying, not your meta....
 
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HRPs should be limited to one per ship.

Perhaps that might be an idea - if you want to install a HRP - it replaces your FSD :) That way you can have all the stealthy pew-pew you like in one system - have to swap it out to get anywhere else, and when you arrive in the new system you are fragile until you can dock and swap it over again?
 
It seems the rock paper Spock lizard scissors of pvp has got out of whack. Needs a type of ship which works excellently against hull tanks and stealthed ships, but is suboptimal against shields or against subsystems.

Elite is limited, so far, in it's variety of defences:

Speed
Stealth
Shield
Armour

If it could add a few more, like erm, ah, electronic warfare, numbers and drones, fo name a few, then there should always be counters.

The counter for stealth ships *should* be small fighters that can get close, take out modules and dodge projectiles and fire using small profiles.

Unfortunately, small ships flight models are overall incredibly underwhelming, so there's no point taking a DBS when an FDL has an almost identical flying ability
 
While corvettes, cutters, condas, etc. will still use shields, FDL, clippers, FAS, and smaller ships have a choice of either shielded or silent running. shielded builds only really give you an advantage in duels (more on this below), while silent running hull tank builds are better for team fights because you are still tanky but also incredibly difficult to target and even harder to focus.

Explanation of why a shielded FDL should beat a hull tank FDL 1v1:
it just comes down to MJ. With class 4 shields + class 5 and class 4 SCB, you have 600Mj shields + 1600 Mj banks = 2200 Mj with 978 armor. Remember, with 4 pips to SYS 2200 MJ = 5500 MJ with 978 armor.
Silent running gives you 2028 armor (or 1968 with full speed), but it's also important to remember silent runners will benefit from having 4 extra pips they can put into engines and weapons as needed. They will also have more heat sinks, which equals more DPS.

But even with the extra dps from doing a shieldless build, a shielded build can outlast and win against a silent running build 1v1 relatively easily and safely as long as the shielded pilot makes sure not to prematurely lose shields. (Note: In current meta, reloads will often be required to finish an opponent 1v1.)

In a teamfight, it's a completely different story. While a shielded build will last against 3, 4, even 5 or 6 attackers, as soon as you get to 2 wings (8 players) shields will drop too fast to fully benefit from SCB. In that scenario, the best strategy is go silent running, which not only avoids damage through making your opponents miss, but also avoids damage by making coordinated attacks difficult. When there is no name to verbally confirm, each individual pilot must rely on intuition and combat awareness to determine whether the ship they are looking at is enemy or friendly. You might lose your target in the black of space at any time, and you'll only find out you shoot a friendly after the fact.

And yes, pythons and clippers are utter trash in pvp now IMHO (other people say differently and make it work, but they are still inferior to the FDL, whether that FDL is shielded or unshielded).
 
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HRPs should be limited to one per ship. And firing while in SR doesn't even reveal your ship much on scanners, which it should do more since there's heat and energy expended.
Right now the point of PVP is how much you can stack armor and then SR.

Stealth needs to have a relook at implementation. Stealth should come with penalties, like weaker hulls, and not bonuses. In most other games, stealth ships are usually fragile or underarmed, or even less maneuverable.

Apparently in ED, stealth = maneuverable instakill tanks.

Broken.


CQC is fun. You get little ships that are more fragile. You live or die as a consequence of your flying, not your meta....

The counter for stealth ships *should* be small fighters that can get close, take out modules and dodge projectiles and fire using small profiles.

Unfortunately, small ships flight models are overall incredibly underwhelming, so there's no point taking a DBS when an FDL has an almost identical flying ability

This is what happens when frontier is endlessly petitioned to make a good ship, exceptional. FDL is the current King purely because commanders wanted it to be.

Which is why I will never trust "you lot" (and I include myself in this) to have the game's best interests at heart. Because you don't. Ever.

"Meta" is simply the current term to describe min/max builds. And no matter what happens, there will always be edge cases that can be exploited.

Grape I know you want everything to be similar but the problem is that everything is so similar it creates boredom. Agreed that there are some pretty crazy exception builds, but there always will be.

Ships should have strengths and weaknesses. They don't need to be the same. They all just need an achellies heel. That means ships like the cutter have no agility. It should mean FDL has some compromising issue.

Why? It keeps outlying builds in check. It means that there is a flaw to each ship and that flaw can be exploited so that fights (and defense) tactics need to accomodate. Ships do not need to be the same. They just need to have boundaries.

Right now? FDL has none. And that's a big problem. Because once an FDL makes it to a location, it can kill with virtual impunity, and really other than out DPSing it, or catching one with superior numbers, it's difficult to stop.

Frontier goofed up. But they goofed up because we demanded they good up. And now we are stuck with that. I think this is a very important thing to consider when demanding yet more changes.

Right now? Frontier could stand to review all ships and consider how they interact with each other, not as an independent asset. One only has to look at pure damage potential between an FDL and a Type-7 (purely on damage potential versus shield, it's genuinely, gob-smacking and hilariously bad) to understand with crystal clarity what changes-in-a-vacuum look like.

The huge irony is that the Python was nerfed hard for precisely this reason. It was too good. FDL is an aberation. And because frontier is focused on making the community happy, as well as pumping out content, they are going to be compromised in making considered decisions.
 
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For Crumlys question:

No because they won't target a ship the sensors don't see, the same as gimbaled.
 
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HRPs should be limited to one per ship. And firing while in SR doesn't even reveal your ship much on scanners, which it should do more since there's heat and energy expended.
Right now the point of PVP is how much you can stack armor and then SR.

Stealth needs to have a relook at implementation. Stealth should come with penalties, like weaker hulls, and not bonuses. In most other games, stealth ships are usually fragile or underarmed, or even less maneuverable.

Apparently in ED, stealth = maneuverable instakill tanks.

Broken.


CQC is fun. You get little ships that are more fragile. You live or die as a consequence of your flying, not your meta....

Yup, totally agree with this. I also rather enjoy CQC, and totally agree with CQC being fun because it's based far more on your skill.

Z...
 
Yup, totally agree with this. I also rather enjoy CQC, and totally agree with CQC being fun because it's based far more on your skill.

Z...


I really hope you're being sarcastic. CQC is atrocious, no serious pvper I know enjoys CQC. From what I can tell mainly only people who don't pvp in open like CQC.
 
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The huge irony is that the Python was nerfed hard for precisely this reason. It was too good. FDL is an aberation. And because frontier is focused on making the community happy, as well as pumping out content, they are going to be compromised in making considered decisions.

The pre-nerf Python was an absolute force of nature. It needed to be nerfed. The problem is, instead of a gentle love tap with the Nerf Hammer™, it got smashed to the ground, and then repeatedly bludgeoned into a mere shadow of it's former self. Everything was wound way down, and nothing was given back to compensate. The shields, hulls strength, or even jump range should have been buffed (at least kept about where they were with the shields).

Shame... Having said that, I do prefer the direction of buffing things up, rather than nerfing down. Now, of course, though, everything else needs a buff to the FDL's standard...

Z...

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I really hope you're being sarcastic. CQC is atrocious, no serious pvper I know enjoys CQC. From what I can tell mainly only people who don't pvp in open like CQC.

Nope, I actually enjoy it. I'm not having to worry about keeping up with the latest "meta" (god I hate the way that word is used..), shield spamming, or whatever the latest PvP trick is today.

I do enjoy PvP in open, but I'm in deep space so long I don't get to PvP a smuch as I'd like in open. Short of buying another account for the purpose...

What is it the "serious PvP'er" dislikes about CQC? Sure, it could use some work, perhaps a tad too arcadey, but it's fast and fun, and tends to take place in the sort of environment I prefer to play in - asteroid fields and around structures. PvP in open space is just a snorefest, honestly... Ideally, I'd like to see more PvP take place in areas with cover, through canyons on planet surfaces, where actually flying skill and situational awareness may gain a pilot advantage over a superior build...

But I digress...

Z...
 
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Nearly every competitive game will have some sort of FOTM/'Flavour of the now' build/spec/loadout. If it involves numbers, people will do their utmost best to min-max it. ;)

Exactly. It's up to the game designers to allow for other flavours to be equally competitive if employed properly. If crunchy peanut butter is all that matters, then people will never buy smooth. Some people choke on lumps, some are allergic to peanuts, and Nutella is far better anyway - but it upsets the peanut-butter purists that someone enjoys something other than peanut butter.
 
I really hope you're being sarcastic. CQC is atrocious, no serious pvper I know enjoys CQC. From what I can tell mainly only people who don't pvp in open like CQC.


If you're looking for "serious" PVP, you're not getting it in Elite Dangerous. (or any MMO style game for that matter) CQC gets it as close as it can possibly be, due to the fact that the pool of variables that influence the outcome is somewhat limited, though still present. Many "PVPers" don't want fair fights, they want to go into fights already having the upper hand.

Python was nerfed because it was too good at everything, it was outclassing specialized ships. FDL was buffed for the same reason, to make it a viable fighter for PVE content. It has the drawbacks it's supposed to have, limited internals and crap jump ranges. It's right where it's supposed to be balance wise. This isn't a PVP game, expecting things to be balanced around some arbitrary PVP meta is silly.
 
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What is it the "serious PvP'er" dislikes about CQC?
It's probably because the standard PvP tactics don't work in CQC - there's no hull-tanking, no wings outside of TDM, lock can be broken without perma-silent running/heatsinks, evasion means more than boosting past the nose and high-waking out, and cover actually means something: physical line-of-sight barriers that block weapons.

It plays very differently.
 
What is it the "serious PvP'er" dislikes about CQC?

CQC is a level playing field. A small minority of PvPers don't like it for that.

I'm sure some like it as well.

Some just like flying bigger ships.

I'm a staunch PvEer, but i really enjoy CQC.

Everyone is different.
 
It's probably because the standard PvP tactics don't work in CQC - there's no hull-tanking, no wings outside of TDM, lock can be broken without perma-silent running/heatsinks, evasion means more than boosting past the nose and high-waking out, and cover actually means something: physical line-of-sight barriers that block weapons.

It plays very differently.

CQC is a level playing field. <snip>
And these two quotes sum up what I love so much about CQC.
 
Nearly every competitive game will have some sort of FOTM/'Flavour of the now' build/spec/loadout. If it involves numbers, people will do their utmost best to min-max it. ;)

True, it's been a problem in online gaming for as long as I can remember. Doesn't mean it should be allowed though as most other games will eventually bring everything to balance as best they can.
However, how does it make sense to have something like hull reinforcements, which can be stacked to ridiculous levels for PvP player killers with no downside, when if a ship could only carry one of each then the difference between those would be far less than the current stacking allows?

This would also make players make use of the other things which will allow them to participate in the overall game that bit much more.
While the current system remains as is then PvP centric players will run over any regular player trying to play the game as the roles suggest, as in as a trader which is probably the best example. If they stack these things they just take more damage and basically become a sponge but make minimal profits for having tried to protect themselves and they will still lose. No trader is gonna play against that or roleplay a sponge. PvP and even Solo or private group players don't mind because it improves their survivability but for a good game mechanic regards balance it breaks the game.

It doesn't work so I can only suggest to nerf the Meta and not indulge it because it's one of the fundamental reasons players do not play in Open because even a blind human could tell there's an imbalance because it's so great.
This also promotes player killers which, in turn, will upset a great may of the regular players which is why so few choose to play in Open beyond those seeking to PvP only and why Piracy seems to be nothing than a forgotten memory.
They simply have no chance if they want to carry goods to a CG. It's too easy for the worst kind of players out there who only care for themselves and not the game as a whole.
Same goes for the weapons as well. Player's being instantly killed is never good for any game. See EA and the BF franchise to see how that worked out when some ne'erdowells coded a one shot kill hack.
Regardless if it's a hack or not, if a player has little or no chance then they will quit and that is bad for the games population so I hope you guys are looking at this.

Ultimately, it should be more about a pilot's skill than using imbalances just to be "good".
 
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