Why Do Players WANT to Keep Old Ships

Not depreciating old ships == not better than old ships. I.e. worse than older ships.
Hmm, I think you're missing the point.
Ships are not characterised with a single number; a new ship could be usefully different from an old ship but without being better than it in every possible way. A new ship that does outclass an older ship in every way could be said to make the older ship irrelevant.
 
Hmm, I think you're missing the point.
Ships are not characterised with a single number; a new ship could be usefully different from an old ship but without being better than it in every possible way. A new ship that does outclass an older ship in every way could be said to make the older ship irrelevant.

How is that supposed to work?
Most ships are best at one thing. If you make a ship that is better at combat than a Fer de Lance, but it is worse at trading, nobody is going to care about that. It will just be better at combat.
 
To respond to the actual topic. You can take Cutter from my cold, lifeless and insolent husk. And not a moment before. Why do we want to keep old ships? Because they still have value. It really is as simple as that.

Frontier went to the effort of adding a vast array of ships; to just jettison 80% or so because they aren't the new hotness is certainly a take. I'll give it that.
 
How is that supposed to work?
Most ships are best at one thing. If you make a ship that is better at combat than a Fer de Lance, but it is worse at trading, nobody is going to care about that. It will just be better at combat.
How would it be better at combat though?

If it was faster, more manoeuvrable, with a bigger distributor, more (and larger) hardpoints, more shields and hull, and had bigger jump range and was harder to hit by virtue of the shape of it, the earlier ship is obsolete.

Take a few of those things on that list out and the ship becomes an alternative rather than a straight up replacement.

For example, on my 5 PA FdL I get more effective damage than a 6 PA Python mk2 by virtue of the fact the distributor on the Python can't handle SRB engineering on those PAs. This means I'm already doing close to the same damage output in the FdL before considering it makes it much easier to keep my FdL at 150% heat, giving me the full 60% thermal conduit damage bonus for much longer periods.

Start talking about frags however and the FdL is nowhere.
 

Really.

How else are we supposed to interpret:

Try interpreting it more literally.

Not depreciating old ships == not better than old ships. I.e. worse than older ships.

Not depreciating old ship in no way implies that new ships cannot be better in some ways, nor does 'not better' imply 'worse'. If I had meant worse, I would have said worse.

I want more variety in ship choice. This does not happen through depreciating ships with direct replacements. It happens through carefully balancing ships so that as many as possible have rational reasons to be used.

The FDL buff was a bad move, IMO, because it took a highly competitive combat vessel and made it functionally the only rational choice for a broad swath of combat tasks for the next several years. Prior to that buff, all the Federal mediums, the Clipper, and even the Vulture had their place as rational, useful, options in wing PvP (and combat in general). The FDL was not clearly better than a FAS, it was a matter of preference, or specific situation, when it came to choosing between the two.

Later on, after the FDL had been dominant for quite some time, they introduced a bunch of Alliance mediums that generall depreciated the Federal mediums further, but weren't quite up to the FDL's standard, which is why everyone mostly went back to the FDL. The next, and closest, competitor was the Mamba, which I think was in a pretty good position, except that (after it's own buffs) it was just a bit too samey. I can't really comment on how the Python MkII fits in as I haven't flown it enough.

I do not think the FDL, needs to be superceeded. It needs to suplemented with ships that feel different, that are neither redundant, nor outclass it. That's where actual choice and real options come from.

Most ships are best at one thing.

Which wasn't always the case and isn't something I find desireable, or even particularly plausible.

Back in 1.4 there were five or six competitive combat vessels. No one doubted that the FDL was good, great even, but no one would have questioned if you could pull your weight in a fight because you showed up with a Clipper, FAS, FDS, or even Python.

If there are going to be ten medium combat ships, I want there to be a good argument for why each and every one of them is the best medium combat ship. I want to see every one of these ships in widespread use because no meta is able separate them into clear tiers.

The game came damn close to realizing this level of choice, once upon a time. I want that back.
 
How is that supposed to work?
Most ships are best at one thing. If you make a ship that is better at combat than a Fer de Lance, but it is worse at trading, nobody is going to care about that. It will just be better at combat.
It's supposed to work because even for a specific role, you can't characterise a ship's "betterness" with a single number.
[snip]
Take a few of those things on that list out and the ship becomes an alternative rather than a straight up replacement.
...Exactly this.
 
New ships are a cool way to bring much needed freshness to the game while generating funding for continuous development of the many features mentioned in the kickstarter that we still don't have. Namely ship interiors.
 
To respond to the actual topic. You can take Cutter from my cold, lifeless and insolent husk. And not a moment before. Why do we want to keep old ships? Because they still have value. It really is as simple as that.

Frontier went to the effort of adding a vast array of ships; to just jettison 80% or so because they aren't the new hotness is certainly a take. I'll give it that.
I dunno

I have two Cutters, I use them both for trade and have spent more time in these ships than any other, more recently for colonization, they're both engineered big time

Clipper Mk2 will probs wipe them both out of existence provided it has big cargo capacity
 
Also being forgotten is ship roles for new situations and activities.
It is not a simple case of one ship is better than another, so might as well just retire all the other ships.
As Frontier adds more activities, a selection of ships to choose from becomes more relevant.

Examples:

1) Fleet Carriers gave many ships new roles. Especially in deep space. Cmdrs can now use better equipped shorter range ships for several activities. For me it opened up the need for very small speedy ships. The Viper4 and Eagle become very relevant for me.

2) Thargoid war is good example of using specific ships for purposes no ship had ever been used for. My Thargoid ships are mostly obsolete now, but they were quite relevant at the time. Examples are specialized ships for station evac, spire farming, and titan bombing. These activities gave ships new and different purposes that would never have been anticipated before the conflict.


Regarding the title of the thread: For established players ships are so cheap and easy to engineer there is no reason for a cmdr to discard old ships. Why would I discard my specialized Thargoid War ships? I don't have any need for them anymore. Maybe new activities introduced next week they will suddenly be handy. It costs nothing to keep them.
 
Another beautiful thing about my Sidey, if I prang an asteroid or a white dwarf because I was flying like a geriatric they give me a new one even if I haven't got any money 😁
My sidewinder was killed half dozen times today by murder hobos camping outside the CG station.

They were all in Python MK2s with what looked like short range blast plasmas.
Funny thing was I watched them one shot a dozen player ships while sitting right in front of the dock yet they never got wanted. Not entirely sure how that works.
Unfortunately, we’re not allowed to name names for some unfashionable reason, but I added the two most egregious to the block list.
I always give a commander one murder but if they camp and try again a second time I just quit, block and come back in.

Anyway, back to the topic: The great thing about dying in the free sidewinder is it only costs about 50k to reboot.


-- edit: Brainfart... I wrote Cobra MK 2 I meant Python MK 2...
 
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Which is good. Different mean options and we gain more ships. We don't gain anything if a ship come along making other ships flat out obsolete so we never use it again. The more viable build options we have, the better and more varied the game becomes in my eyes.

If FDev ever figure out how to do that, I'm sure we will all be thrilled. Players can't even agree on what makes a ship just different and not worse. See perpetual arguments about which is the best ship for [combat | exploration | trading].
Just having built-in SCO tuning makes any new ship automatically better than a ship w/o that.
 
If FDev ever figure out how to do that, I'm sure we will all be thrilled. Players can't even agree on what makes a ship just different and not worse. See perpetual arguments about which is the best ship for [combat | exploration | trading].
That's kind of my point. The fact that we can't agree means that it comes down to personal choice and how a ship and build "feels". There's generally not one ship that we point at and all say you have to use that one.
Just having built-in SCO tuning makes any new ship automatically better than a ship w/o that.
It's a useful feature, but the T-8 isn't a better hauling ship than the Cutter for most people because of it. Likewise people will move from the Cutter and T-9 to the Panther for the main reason of cargo capacity.

As an example - I picked up a mission for a source and return for 70t of gold last night (reward: 30 million). I picked that up in a station 5 ls from the main star and the station selling the gold was 400 ls from the main star, 1 jump away. You don't need an SCO optimised ship for that and that's almost all of my carrier upkeep paid for the week. It does open up more areas of a system that previously we wouldn't have bothered with but considering I can use SCO to travel 4000 ls in a DBX with an 8t capacity fuel tank, it's difficult for me to see it as more than a comfort feature for the majority of supercruise travel.
 
People 90 years ago: "OMG, The Ford Model A is totally OP. It's faster, safer and carries more than the Model T I paid good money for."







Three votes for "New ships, as long as they are worse than the old ships" on just the first page.
You guys should have loved the Cobra Mk IV.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before you get on your high horse because that isn't what I said.
 
For me, the whole thing boils down to this: a limited number of ships was added. Some people claim that the differences are small. Others see it differently

Point in case, this video i saw recently:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVuNfm_5kGw


All the ships the producer of the video really recommends are the new ones. Anything older he kind of rates as "second pick". (I am paraphrasing here. You can watch the video if you want it more exactly. )

Now feel free and pick up a similar video of two years ago. You might find that a much bigger variety of ships are being recommended. Which means, players earlier saw more effective and efficient options of gameplay before the new ARX ships were introduced. Which leads me to two questions:

1. From a players point of view: Who thinks that being limited to less options is an actual improvement of a game?
2. From a developers point of view: Who thinks that outdating existing content, which previously was used by players, is a good idea?
(After all, the old ship models, cockpits, sounds, but also ship kits and paintjobs in the store already were created. They merely need to be sold. But if those ships are seen as low value and not worth picking up any more, all these assets loose their value and the potential sales won't happen any more. )

Certainly the current ARX-sold ships are a way to make cash. Which is why FD had to go this way. After neglecting and basically forgetting about the game for several years, their other ventures failed and they urgently needed to squeeze money out of their most loyal remaining playerbase. Anybody who endured so much neglect is ready to spend money eagerly, after all. But in a long run, this permanent power creep means that they now are in a vicious circle of having to outdate and thus devalue their own content again and again.

In the long run, it would be more beneficial for both the game and the developers if the older ships would also be seen as good and adequate options, and not as the old garbage you have to stick with if you don't want to spend ARX. At the same time, this text kind of holds an answer for FD: there are many paintjobs and ship kits, which won't sell any more, as the ships are now seen as low value. Now imagine if magically there would be some supercruise-enhancing modules, giving these ships full SCO capability. And you don't even need to create new ship-kits for all the existing ships. Most players never bought any ship kit. If now adding just one piece of a ship kit to a ship you own suddenly gives the ship better SCO handling, a lot of the old ship kits might suddenly sell.

I would see this as a kind of win on many aspects:
1. Yes, it would still be kind of pay to win. You would still have to spend money to have your ships full capability. A dirty thing, but FD decided to go that way.
2. More ships would be seen as viable options again. A video like the one i linked above would suddenly list a lot more ships again, merely stating that for some of them you should perhaps buy a ship kit for some of them to get optimal performance.
3. Existing ships, their development already paid for a long time ago, would be viable content again.
4. Existing ship kits, their development already paid for a long time ago, would be attractive to many players.

It still would not eliminate the stench of pay to win. But it would keep much more content of the game alive.
 
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