Why does it take so long to fix game issues?

[Barking_Mad]

See, I am not arguing which games is better. I love both, as I said. I am arguing that a small team at HG can create a huge update in 2 years, whilst FDEV fart away with a team of 100 developers "working" on ED. That's my sticking point.I'm simply comparing NMS with ED in terms of both being "space games" with broadly speaking, same set of features. Some of these features are more fleshed out in ED and vice versa. I'm not adamant I am right at all, where do I say that? Neither do I wish for ED to be exactly like something else.

What I am saying is that we should see major improvements in less time. NMS is a prime example of how that can happen. My personal opinion on why it is not happening is a) unnecesary bad code base and b) mismanagemnet of the game development.

I think yourself and others mixup the two ideas of:

- Not liking ED updates

with

- Saying there haven't been many updates.

You're of course free to say you don't like what's appeared in ED, but it's demonstrably untrue to say that there hasn't been much content and that it's significantly less than what's been put out in NMS.

That's no criticism of HG.

 

[THECATISDEAD]

I think yourself and others mixup the two ideas of:

- Not liking ED updates

with

- Saying there haven't been many updates.

You're of course free to say you don't like what's appeared in ED, but it's demonstrably untrue to say that there hasn't been much content and that it's significantly less than what's been put out in NMS.

That's no criticism of HG.

I'm not sure I follow you there. Can you try and explain what you mean? I would state that IMHO, I generally like the updates, dislike the lack of bug fixing and the length of time between each update.

 

[Barking_Mad]

So long as it does what they said it would do last October all could be saved...if it doesnt then there is no beyond beyond. Not saying NMS has the better dev team, but regular updates and bug fixes every other day feels a helluva lot better than 6 to 12 month waiting times. Oh Im sure someone will provide what they think are valid reasons fer this, but still...6 to 12 months versus twice a week...hmm food fer thought.

The last major release by FDev (Chapter 1) had 1000 fixes. There were then 4 patch updates in the next 4 weeks. Comparing what is fixed is somewhat different as that does depend on complexity of the bug and game in question. I'm not saying Frontier can't do a better job or that some bugs shouldn't have been fixed - just that comparisons between games are largely useless without detailed knowledge of what's been fixed and how it works.

I suspect (just opinion) that Frontier see a complex game with different areas of development as being reason to leave some bugs untouched. That way when code bases merge at some point they can look at fixing them knowing they're on the same page. And yes, invariably new bugs will appear and old ones resurface.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I'm not sure I follow you there. Can you try and explain what you mean? I would state that IMHO, I generally like the updates, dislike the lack of bug fixing and the length of time between each update.

You said FDev were "farting about". The list of updates I'd suggest shows they're not imo. Those '100 devs' are not working on the next update, they'll be working across different features some of which won't appear for some time. Example: the little Thargons fired by Thargoids were developed 6 months before they appeared in game.

IMO Frontier could mitigate some of the beliefs that persist about its development by doing a one off Dev behind the scenes look at how a particular feature is developed, the work that goes into it and the time it takes. I suspect many grossly under estimate the time it takes to develop ideas and get them working in game.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I suspect many grossly under estimate the time it takes to develop ideas and get them working in game.

Understatement of the year.

 

[babelfisch]

I am not sure if a game that was abandoned by the creators and the players for 2 years is a good example for anything.

 

[babelfisch]

What I am saying is that we should see major improvements in less time. NMS is a prime example of how that can happen. My personal opinion on why it is not happening is a) unnecesary bad code base and b) mismanagemnet of the game development.

How is two years short time? If FDEV would stop releasing any meaningful content for two years everyone on this forum would go nuts.

NMS is a prime exmaple of what you shouldn't do.

 

[Barking_Mad]

None of it means Frontier don't make mistakes, wouldn't go back and do things differently or change their code/ideas because looking back three years later they could now do it better. But hindsight is a wonderful thing and as gamers we have it in spades because we're not at the sharp end of making the original decisions and our ideas aren't limited by any technical and time limitations.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I am not sure if a game that was abandoned by the creators and the players for 2 years is a good example for anything.

Or despite praise, gets abandoned quite shortly after people got some taster of new update.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

None of it means Frontier don't make mistakes, wouldn't go back and do things differently or change their code/ideas because looking back three years later they could now do it better. But hindsight is a wonderful thing and as gamers we have it in spades because we're not the sharp end of making the original decisions and our ideas aren't limited by any technical and time limitations.

Would like to give you rep for this because in all other game development it's spot on....... but....... in the case of ED there was a thing called the DDF, maybe you've heard of it?

Just in case you haven't, it was an entire other section of forum where the players (backers then in reality) gave ideas and feedback on FDev's design suggestions pre-alpha and DURING THE ENTIRE ALPHA, BETA AND GAMMA STAGES.

FDev almost completely ignored all the feedback and "maybe this is a better way to do it" ideas - the majority coming from older gamers AND most importantly coders and people in the software industry.

Even when they were told point blank that certain decisions would lead to bad outcomes and the kind of bad gameplay that makes people ask for refunds, IN CAPS, repeatedly, over and over and over again - they went ahead and did it anyway as they wanted to, and it became a huge steaming fetid pile of guano as predicted - the C&P / griefing / station ramming / noob start "instant death" zone situation being one of the most obvious and FDev only took a second pass at 3 years later. (and still borked it.)

and just to twist the knife - all the DDF members had PAID £300 FOR THAT PRIVILEDGE to, and I quote "be a design DECISISON forum member" with the emphasis for most people on DECISION.

It's a very unfortunate but true reality that for quite a few sections of the game, FDev have demonstrated time and again that they are either bad listeners who don't take the advice from the people they are making the game for - like a car designer who insists on putting 2 different sized wheels (so you have to carry TWO spares not 1), an underpowered engine and no storage space on a car; or they are developers who utterly lacked the necessary expertise to deliver at the time (which isn't uncommon)**, BUT who've also learned very little about WHAT makes a good game and gameplay, and how to deliver that in the four years since.... and truthfully I think it's both.

** Hello Games were also massively guilty of this, but have learned and grown as a dev house to a point where the NEXT expansion has almost entirely wiped out the negatives from TWO years ago. By comparison ED players and followers are STILL COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SAME BROKEN MECHANICS IN THE GAME FOUR YEARS LATER.

 

[Stigbob]

The DDF was just a paid opportunity to theorycraft with the devs. It was delivered in full.

 

[M00ka]

Would like to give you rep for this because in all other game development it's spot on....... but....... in the case of ED there was a thing called the DDF, maybe you've heard of it?

Just in case you haven't, it was an entire other section of forum where the players (backers then in reality) gave ideas and feedback on FDev's design suggestions pre-alpha and DURING THE ENTIRE ALPHA, BETA AND GAMMA STAGES.

FDev almost completely ignored all the feedback and "maybe this is a better way to do it" ideas - the majority coming from older gamers AND most importantly coders and people in the software industry.

Even when they were told point blank that certain decisions would lead to bad outcomes and the kind of bad gameplay that makes people ask for refunds, IN CAPS, repeatedly, over and over and over again - they went ahead and did it anyway as they wanted to, and it became a huge steaming fetid pile of guano as predicted - the C&P / griefing / station ramming / noob start "instant death" zone situation being one of the most obvious and FDev only took a second pass at 3 years later. (and still borked it.)

and just to twist the knife - all the DDF members had PAID £300 FOR THAT PRIVILEDGE to, and I quote "be a design DECISISON forum member" with the emphasis for most people on DECISION.

It's a very unfortunate but true reality that for quite a few sections of the game, FDev have demonstrated time and again that they are either bad listeners who don't take the advice from the people they are making the game for - like a car designer who insists on putting 2 different sized wheels (so you have to carry TWO spares not 1), an underpowered engine and no storage space on a car; or they are developers who utterly lacked the necessary expertise to deliver at the time (which isn't uncommon)**, BUT who've also learned very little about WHAT makes a good game and gameplay, and how to deliver that in the four years since.... and truthfully I think it's both.

** Hello Games were also massively guilty of this, but have learned and grown as a dev house to a point where the NEXT expansion has almost entirely wiped out the negatives from TWO years ago. By comparison ED players and followers are STILL COMPLAINING ABOUT THE SAME BROKEN MECHANICS IN THE GAME FOUR YEARS LATER.

Far as I can tell you are the only one that has been complaining for four years, you do not speak for the player community!

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I am not sure if a game that was abandoned by the creators and the players for 2 years is a good example for anything.

Hello games "abandoned" nothing, if you knew what you were talking about you'd know about all the updates and content updates.

Sure - at that point you'll say "yeah but they were only adding what was SUPPOSED TO BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE".

And I'll reply with - "of course, but err yeah maybe you want to look at what FDev have been doing for the last four years and explain to me how "horizons" is ANY DIFFERENT FROM THAT."

then I'll say "oh, and by the way, atmospheric landings is still missing and a bunch of other stuff that was outlined in the ED kickstarter".

then add "four years, still missing." just to be sure you heard me.

at which point you'll go silent - say "you're wrong" without anything to back it up, pick up your handbag then mince off.

[video=youtube;Tsl7-TJtPew]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsl7-TJtPew[/video]

 

[StuartGT]

and just to twist the knife - all the DDF members had PAID £300 FOR THAT PRIVILEDGE to, and I quote "be a design DECISISON forum member" with the emphasis for most people on DECISION.

It was actually called the Design Discussion Forum.

 

[BDelacroix]

I can't answer for whatever process Frontier uses, but from experience some bugs just aren't as simple as they appear from the outside.

 

[Stigbob]

Hello games "abandoned" nothing,

They abandoned a decent flight model and joystick support, that's why NMS has been able to specialize at being raygun minecraft.

 

[Sylveria]

They abandoned a decent flight model and joystick support, that's why NMS has been able to specialize at being raygun minecraft.

You know, that's the most apt description of No Man's Game I've seen yet. "Raygun Minecraft".

 

[krylite]

FDev almost completely ignored all the feedback and "maybe this is a better way to do it" ideas - the majority coming from older gamers AND most importantly coders and people in the software industry.

Even when they were told point blank that certain decisions would lead to bad outcomes and the kind of bad gameplay that makes people ask for refunds, IN CAPS, repeatedly, over and over and over again - they went ahead and did it anyway as they wanted to, and it became a huge steaming fetid pile of guano as predicted - the C&P / griefing / station ramming / noob start "instant death" zone situation being one of the most obvious and FDev only took a second pass at 3 years later. (and still borked it.)

I doubt FD ignored "all" the feedback. And FD are the developers not the armchair voices. They probably listened to some good ideas and moved on from the rest that wasn't part of ED's dev guidelines. To this day, FD are still working on improving the game with changes often motivated by some feedback. But they can never win. Some camp is always complaining FD's efforts are better off on some other aspect of the game, even though FD got to some area where some wanted changes or udpates.

Broken mechanics, and game ruined by C&P(which was fixed and improved)? Hardly, there is so much that is overwhelmingly working right with the game, that ED continues to be a top go-to game for those wanting a space sim fix with an immense immersive scope embedded with astronomical detail and theory. New players who discover the game continue to enjoy it at least their first few hundred hours before some unfortunately get infected and fall instep with the naysaying bandwagon which will never stop even 5, 10, 20 years from now when ED is still alive and thriving.

The DDF was just a paid opportunity to theorycraft with the devs. It was delivered in full.

Agreed, it was hopeful theorycrafting for future development and improvement for after the release of the game. Eagleboy said 95%. I would say more like 65%, but a very well done 65% where a modernized update of FFE was very much completed and then some, extrapolated to a MMO scope and shared verse. As for the rest of the DDF, it was not going to arrive immediately or even the next year or so. There's still the rest of the ten-year plan, and DB said this summer that he envisions Frontier to continue working on ED even beyond the 10 years. Great news and vision all around.

 

[StuartGT]

I am not sure if a game that was abandoned by the creators and the players for 2 years is a good example for anything.

NMS wasn't abandoned by its creators. After the game's Aug 2016 release HG finished developing and released three major updates prior to Jul 2018's NEXT update:

• Foundation, Nov 2016 - New game modes, base building, farming, freighters.
• Pathfinder, Mar 2017 - Ground vehicles, base sharing, ship specialisations, weapon upgrades, graphical overhaul.
• Atlas Rises, Aug 2017 - New 30hr story mode, new worlds, crashed freighters, a mission system, terrain editing, portals.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of the playerbase did abandon NMS. Average concurrent users From Steamchart's table:

• Aug 2016 = 36,976
• Sep 2016 to Jun 2018 = 1,247 (with 15 of those months having <1k concurrent average)
• Jul 2018 = 14,554
• Last 30 days = 37,045

The NEXT update brought many players back and new players in, reaching 46% (96,954 on 29 Jul 2018) of the launch-week's peak (212,321 on 12 Aug 2016). From that recent 97k peak, the daily peak has dropped 80% to 20k yesterday.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Far as I can tell you are the only one that has been complaining for four years, you do not speak for the player community!

and neither do you, even though you try, again and again and again and again and again and again (and again, see above ^^^, oh the irony) - but maybe you should pay a bit more attention around here instead of rabidly defending everything without actually READING any of it.

Do you know WHY I've been so visibly vocal and it looks like I'm the "only one complaining" for four years?

Because all the others have left - given up, walked away from ED and FDev as a lost cause, irredeemable and forever broken. I can name one backer who has personally confirmed to me that he backed the game for MORE THAN £10,000 GBP, but he walked away 2 years ago.

There are forum members who had spent YEARS ont htis forum BEFORE the ED kickstarter talking about a 4th Elite game and how amazing that would be, with all the new game engines and computer power.

Where are they now? well, quite a few left after offlinegate, disgusted by how much they had to fight just to get a refund they were legally entitled to; the rest? Well they just drifted off one by one, usually not long after FDev released content that turned out to be shabby and half baked.

Very VERY occasionally I see them pop back and post, possibly to see if FDev have managed to redeem themselves or maybe out of pure morbid curiosity, who knows, but most of the oppostion to your fanboy club has gone.

You might beleive there are less complaints now because FDev are doing a better job, and to some exrtent that is true, you'll even see ME praise them on occasion if you dig hard enough, but you don't make somethign great by saying "that'll do" and walking off.

What you and all the other fanbois don't seem to understand is that the "complainers" are fanbois who REFUSE to accept mediocre, we are actually on the SAME SIDE fighting the SAME FIGHT, but we are the ones pushing FDev TO MAKE ED THE BEST IT CAN BE, because the Elite franchise is THE PROGENITOR, the seed from whence this genre grew, yet it is being overtaken and overshadowed by the hungry and committed, with less money and less resources and the worst part is, FDev can see this and seemingly do little.

So while you won't like this, the truth is that all the rabid fanbois who praise everything FDev does, regardless of quality, while it might make you and them feel good, you're not actually doing them any favors.

Fanbois seem to be like those schools who give out certificates to pupils JUST FOR TURNING UP TO SCHOOL - no I'm really not kidding - going to school everyday AS YOU'RE BLOODY SUPPOSED TO, gets you an "attendance certificate".

You (fanbois collectively) are also just as guilty of acting like most politicians around the world who will argue against almost everything, even when it's a good idea.

Time and again you M00ka, and eagleboy and others have displayed you don't really understand what's going on here, and what some of us are trying to acheive - however just as I came to understand that the SDC were actually doing quite a few things for reasons that escaped most peoples understanding, that were aimed at highlighting just how flawed some of the game mechanics and systems were, because nothing highlights a flaw more than shoving it in someones face, repeatedly - you too can come to understand you and I and few remainign complainers only want the same thing:

For Elite Dangerous to be what it can and should be.

Sadly I don't think even Sir David Braben thinks that way anymore. (one of the few times I've been respectful enough to use his full name and title) - I've made no secret of the fact that 1984 Elite literally saved my life, your commitment to the franchise by comparison, pales into insignificance.

(ps can't be bothered to fix the typos and grammer - I'm off to play NMS - steam ID rafezetter88 https://steamcommunity.com/search/users/#text=rafezetter (no surprise there) add me if you want and we'll boogie, everyone's welcome, even you m00ka if you keep a civil tongue.)

PPS yes that's definitely me, not trolling, it'll be confirmed by my steam avatar, you might recognise it, yes that's a genuine 1984 Elite rank badge, yes it's mine.