Why Elite's riddles and story do not work for me

[Siranui]

I don't see how. If I was making a space game, there wouldn't even be a question of group or solo play - it would all be MP. There would be enough players that want to cooperate and if they didn't - Dev injected content to either move the story on or put brakes on it.

It's not going to fly because the game is never going to be MP only and FD are never going to make plot MP only.

Let go of your dream: It is not happening. Anything which excludes Solo play is an irrelevancy. It's like we're trying to find some suggestions for what fruit to put in the fruit bowl and someone suggests 'steak'. Maybe a steak might be nice, but it's not going in the fruit bowl.

Then I'm not interested in it. If I'm waiting for the devs to put the next part in place then I don't feel progress can be made at the pace I want to play it at. This is why early access games with a story suck.

Ok, well again you'll have to let the dream of a lot of story involvement die. The game is intended to be a slowly emerging story over the course of umpteen years. What happens in it is not going to be pre-scripted and set in stone so we can sit down one night and play some mini games to find the Thargoids invade, then space whales save the day, before the Imperials win in the end. Again: Steak in a fruit bowl.

It's really weird: You want the story to emerge only in mutlplayer. It not to be available to Solo and requires multiple players to be involved: Maybe the entire community. Yet you want the plot to be set up fully in advance and for you to blaze through it in a single evening. How does that work?

 

[Theodrid]

Your proposal is indeed fairly modest as resources go (though still requiring some resource, of course), but we have to face that it falls way short of what many people on this thread want. Where do they see the extra time coming from for their own ideas? Are those ideas still reasonable enough to consider - in which case the question 'what gives?' stands - or we write them off as impractical, and all those people are still going to feel left out.



Ok, but how does that face up to the repeated criticism that we have to wait around, twiddling thumbs, waiting for FD to drop the next morsel of plot on us?




Honestly, it doesn't feel that fleshed out. Like I say: *mumblemumble mini game scanners*. That has not sold a solution to me. Stories have a beginning, middle and end. How does the story start for the player? What are the types of challenges, and how many stages. Are the puzzles unique to the player? How long do they take? How is success counted? What are the results? Is 'the end' a place, or is it some information on lore, or is it a +5 vorpal lazz0r, or does it spawn a thargoid invasion?

I'm genuinely interested in figuring out the best thing to put in the black box between 'problem' and 'solution'.

I'm more than aware my proposal isn't going to suit everyone mate I really am, for me, and I think the only way progress towards a more inclusive system is going to achievable is baby steps in the right direction from Frontier. The same thing goes for the 'twiddling thumbs' critique as you put it, personally I'm trying to be as realistic as possible and not trying to cure all the ills in the game and perceived ills from the community.

The 'mini game scanners' you mention do not hold me personally, I do not have a dog in that particular fight to be honest. In terms of 'how does the story start for the player', well that would depend on where the story currently is, it could be in the form of 'one per commander' mission(s), tip offs, visiting a POI, there are plenty of possibles and options here. As I said earlier the pace, to some degree at the very least can be dictated by both frontier and the player(s) and any success can be counted in several ways too, percentages of completion for example, this could determine future steps, number of steps required and roll over, to a lesser or greater degree to the subsequent phases I mentioned earlier. I won't go into specifics on the rest there because quite frankly it is into the realms of speculation that are no different from now.

In short I do not think it is particularly fair to press me on 'all the answers' when I/we are not in possession of all the relevant information to be able to 'decide' all the details. I do not for a second here claim to have the perfect solution for the whole community and frankly it would be arrogant of me to assume I did.

 

[Jex =TE=]

It's not going to fly because the game is never going to be MP only and FD are never going to make plot MP only.

Let go of your dream: It is not happening. Anything which excludes Solo play is an irrelevancy. It's like we're trying to find some suggestions for what fruit to put in the fruit bowl and someone suggests 'steak'. Maybe a steak might be nice, but it's not going in the fruit bowl.



Ok, well again you'll have to let the dream of a lot of story involvement die. The game is intended to be a slowly emerging story over the course of umpteen years. What happens in it is not going to be pre-scripted and set in stone so we can sit down one night and play some mini games to find the Thargoids invade, then space whales save the day, before the Imperials win in the end. Again: Steak in a fruit bowl.

It's really weird: You want the story to emerge only in mutlplayer. It not to be available to Solo and requires multiple players to be involved: Maybe the entire community. Yet you want the plot to be set up fully in advance and for you to blaze through it in a single evening. How does that work?

What dream? I'm stating a fact on how I'd do it and it would be beautiful and tremendous and orange....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... orannnnggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......

My point is FD should be doing a much better job.

 

[akaliel]

I didn't either. But I bet any 13 year old into Japanese culture is. And anyone playing in Japan.

It's a crowd source solution, relying on community. We were never all intended to each be able to solve every mystery.



No, you won't convince me, I'm afraid. As a player who doesn't seem to like the idea of making your own goals, and consider 'grinding to a good ship' the only real objective to the game - with little reason to play after that - I'm not convinced that you are the type of player who can be catered with via story that the nature of Elite can deliver. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, it is simply that Elite was never envisaged or designed to be the game that you want it to be. You are asking it to be something it is not.

You're not going to be able to convince me either. I completely disagree with everything you said. 110%

I think Frontier should work on including more of its gamers into its game. Instead of expecting us to install bizarre software and become mathematicians, or become Japanese. In order to explore the deeper mysteries of the game. Because the alternatives they've left us are lacking to say the least.

 

[Archvillain]

You're kinda missing the whole point. How is an Xbox player supposed to install the tools needed to do any of this stuff. How is a 13 year old going to know, oh it's a nongram! The solution to the problem so many people have with the current system isn't "learn more and be smarter". Nobody is asking that these advanced Easter egg hunts be taken out. We're asking for FD to add something for the rest of us to do along these same mystery hunt lines.

That's already the lion's share of the content. I think this is a grass-is-greener misperception. The vast majority of the game and story-driving activities etc can be completed in-game. Of those that can't, most of those can be completed in-game + forums. There is only a tiny sliver of story activity that requires more, but that naturally inspires a tunnel-vision-like focus and the feeling like it's a much bigger slice of the pie than it actually is. That eternal human feeling that the REAL party is somewhere else and other people are having all the fun

A reason those puzzles feel like they dwarf the in-game puzzles and activities is that... how do people even know about other things? Other players get really excited about a difficult puzzle that they've been working on for a long time, so theories are flying and there is buzz and speculation about it, real-world headlines, etc, so that activity is visible and overshadowing other things, and there are constant Galnet stories which make it seem all even bigger and officially catered-to (but are mostly just because players submitted posts to Galnet themselves - the same as you can for anything you've done that you think might interest others) and it all feels so much BIGGER than all the other things happening. But the end of the day, the vast majority of the player-driven story direction etc is decided by purely in-game events, activities, puzzles, etc. That kind of stuff just gets overlooked and inherently seems like less, because things that are more accessible (to player without computers and to 13-year-olds with no special skills and no interest in learning any new skills to crack a puzzle) is inherently more like regular video game fare and inherently not going to be as interesting as something that requires all the minds and all the tools and gets international headlines.

But even then, it's not all like that. There were some daunting puzzles that many people assumed had to be solved outside the game, and they were simply wrong. It was all solvable in-game using the in-game tools! But no-one could know that until after the solution was discovered!

I'm just back from a break, so I'm still figuring out what is happening right now, but I know that last time I was playing there were exactly the kind of challenging clue-driven mystery-hunt stuff happening where everything needed was in-game (though forums helped - batting theories at each other etc), but it was easy to not know about that because the buzz was elsewhere and you could be forgiven for thinking the buzz was The Thing That Is Happening, when it's really just the most visible sliver of what is happening.

And as I touched on, I also suspect a lot of players who feel left out might not be aware they can (or have not actually tried to) submit a story to Galnet to make their own crazy adventure/idea part of the greater narrative, and so they tend to over-estimate the extent to which other players are being catered to by the game narrative when in fact those players are actually doing it themselves. (Galnet does select and edit articles for publication, but if you're doing something you think others will find interesting, consider writing it up!)

I think people are more empowered than many may realize. FDev really does want to cater to you. They don't have much time or wiggle-room, but if players take something most of the way, as far as they're able, FDev will often carry it the remaining distance, so to speak.

 

[SCTrojanbulldog]

Joining this convo late but my only issue with a lot of these "breadcrumbs" is that it feels somewhat contrived. I feel like the assets for an alien encounter via battle or other live interaction are not ready for prime time so we get these teases and clues to hold us over until they're complete.

They're amusing and well thought out but ultimately a distraction until someone hits an update button on the server. Sooooo, I just kinda get that "why should I pay too much attention to something that is inconsequential..?"

 

[akaliel]

That's already the lion's share of the content. I think this is a grass-is-greener misperception. The vast majority of the game and story-driving activities etc can be completed in-game. Of those few that can't, most of those can be completed in-game + forums. There is only a tiny sliver of story activity that requires more, but that naturally inspires a tunnel-vision-like focus and the feeling like it's a much bigger slice of the pie than it actually is. That eternal human feeling that the REAL party is somewhere else and other people are having all the fun

A reason those puzzles feel like they dwarf the in-game puzzles and activities is that... how do people even know about other things? Other players get really excited about a difficult puzzle that they've been working on for a long time, so theories are flying and there is buzz and speculation about it, real-world headlines, etc, so that activity is visible and overshadowing other things, and there are constant Galnet stories which make it seem all even bigger and officially catered-to (but are mostly just because players submitted posts to Galnet themselves - the same as you can for anything you've done that you think might interest others) and it all feels so much BIGGER than all the other things happening. But the end of the day, the vast majority of the player-driven story direction etc is decided by purely in-game events, activities, puzzles, etc. That kind of stuff just gets overlooked and inherently seems like less, because things that are more accessible (to player without computers and to 13-year-olds with no special skills and no interest in learning any new skills to crack a puzzle) is inherently more like regular video game fare and inherently not going to be as interesting as something that requires all the minds and all the tools and gets international headlines.

But even then, it's not all like that. There were some daunting puzzles that many people assumed had to be solved outside the game, and they were simply wrong. It was all in-game content. But no-one knew that until after the solution was discovered!

I'm just back from a break, so I'm still figuring out what is happening right now, but I know that last time I was playing there were exactly the kind of challenging clue-driven mystery-hunt stuff happening where everything needed was in-game (though forums helped - batting theories at each other etc), but it was easy to not know about that because the buzz was elsewhere and you could be forgiven for thinking the buzz was The Thing That Is Happening, when it's really just the most visible sliver of what is happening.

I also suspect a lot of players who feel left out might not be aware they can (or have not actually tried to) submit a story to Galnet to make their own crazy adventure/idea part of the greater narrative, and so tend to over-estimate the extent to which other players are being catered to by the game narrative when those players are actually doing it themselves. (Galnet does select and edit articles for publication, but if you're doing something you think others will find interesting, consider writing it up)

I think people are more empowered than many may realize. FDev really does want to cater to you. They don't have much time or wiggle-room, but if players take something 90% of the way, FDev will often carry it the remaining distance, so to speak.

Oh I know that for the most part the puzzles Cannon is solving is mostly a lot of guessing and testing until something happens or a pattern appears and they make a beeline to the answer and find whatever it is. It sounds more exciting than it is. And what I don't want is an easier version of all that for the numpties to figure out. What I want is for all of us to have more stuff to find, and the tools in the game for us to find them and when something is found it should result in - something. When xdeath found the city, what did he get? Did his detailed surface scan reward him handsomely? Was the initial value of the alien artifacts and scans phenomenal? Was there readings he could take from the city that he could then match against other and future scans to find more cities? Nope. The planet value is a couple thousand. The artifacts are worth squat, the scans lead to a CG, that paid about a tenth what you could get for Sothis. And they'll probably result in an engineer blueprint that'll be hard to get b/c we'll need stupid polonium or something.

There needs to be satisfaction in the finding. That's what makes exploration so alluring. There's no satisfaction with what we currently have, even for the near impossible to solve mysteries we do have. You could get as much out of going to that crashed ship as you would looking at screenshots of it on the internet.

 

[Stryka Choon]

That's already the lion's share of the content. I think this is a grass-is-greener misperception. The vast majority of the game and story-driving activities etc can be completed in-game. Of those that can't, most of those can be completed in-game + forums. There is only a tiny sliver of story activity that requires more, but that naturally inspires a tunnel-vision-like focus and the feeling like it's a much bigger slice of the pie than it actually is. That eternal human feeling that the REAL party is somewhere else and other people are having all the fun

A reason those puzzles feel like they dwarf the in-game puzzles and activities is that... how do people even know about other things? Other players get really excited about a difficult puzzle that they've been working on for a long time, so theories are flying and there is buzz and speculation about it, real-world headlines, etc, so that activity is visible and overshadowing other things, and there are constant Galnet stories which make it seem all even bigger and officially catered-to (but are mostly just because players submitted posts to Galnet themselves - the same as you can for anything you've done that you think might interest others) and it all feels so much BIGGER than all the other things happening. But the end of the day, the vast majority of the player-driven story direction etc is decided by purely in-game events, activities, puzzles, etc. That kind of stuff just gets overlooked and inherently seems like less, because things that are more accessible (to player without computers and to 13-year-olds with no special skills and no interest in learning any new skills to crack a puzzle) is inherently more like regular video game fare and inherently not going to be as interesting as something that requires all the minds and all the tools and gets international headlines.

But even then, it's not all like that. There were some daunting puzzles that many people assumed had to be solved outside the game, and they were simply wrong. It was all in-game content. But no-one could know that until after the solution was discovered!

I'm just back from a break, so I'm still figuring out what is happening right now, but I know that last time I was playing there were exactly the kind of challenging clue-driven mystery-hunt stuff happening where everything needed was in-game (though forums helped - batting theories at each other etc), but it was easy to not know about that because the buzz was elsewhere and you could be forgiven for thinking the buzz was The Thing That Is Happening, when it's really just the most visible sliver of what is happening.

And as I touched on, I also suspect a lot of players who feel left out might not be aware they can (or have not actually tried to) submit a story to Galnet to make their own crazy adventure/idea part of the greater narrative, and so they tend to over-estimate the extent to which other players are being catered to by the game narrative when in fact those players are actually doing it themselves. (Galnet does select and edit articles for publication, but if you're doing something you think others will find interesting, consider writing it up)

I think people are more empowered than many may realize. FDev really does want to cater to you. They don't have much time or wiggle-room, but if players take something most of the way, as far as they're able, FDev will often carry it the remaining distance, so to speak.

Totally agree. I suspect many players don't really appreciate how big Elite is, and how - just like life - the game is what you make it. Inevitably, if you want to follow the puzzle stories, age, experience, knowledge and access to information may well help. If they could be solved by brute force and ignorance, they'd have no appeal to most players. And it's true that therefore the 13-year-old XBox player will be at something of a disadvantage. But the puzzles are just one part of a huge stage to play on. Yes, some parts of the game aren't as good as they could be - and I hope the conversations here are prompting further work at FD. But this game is for the long-haul, not an 8-hour fragfest with a huge end-of-game monster to fight. Who knows where it will go over the next few years? Probably not even FD!

 

[Starstrydur]

Ok... I'm not sure what 'people like me' are, but can you are correct: Can you explain how there is no way to get involved?
Could you not have involved yourself before the puzzle was solved? You said it was 90% out of game, but does that not leave 10% in game. What prevented involvement at that stage? I do indeed genuinely not understand.

Even if there was an in-game puzzle, once someone has solved it and found the thing *using the in-game tools and mechanics and mini-games that people are asking for*, what is there for everyone else to do still? Someone will still have solved it before us both. They'll be videos on youtube of people visiting the places afterwards. We still won't have done anything and someone else will still be 'first'. The puzzle will still be over.

I mean People like those that think all this out of game play is a great thing and don't believe that everything can be done in game.

I only play 'In Game" So, As I have stated many times now There is nothing more to do regarding story elements than to go somewhere and push a button. I have heard of discoveries on the forums and gone to look at some things. But like the man and his son a few posts back I know there is nothing to do except push a button. This is such non existence game play. What we have is such a let down I can't find enough interest to go and push the button anymore. For me as an in game player there is pretty much no story line at all so I do other activities that others often say are a grind. If you think going somewhere someone told you about on the internet and pushing a button is great, then good for you I guess. But for me and most of the posters in this thread what little we have in game is not interesting at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Because some have asked how an in game discovery element might work I am putting my thoughts here.


This is what I thought of when pondering what tool or mechanic could make the game interesting by way of giving ships active and passive sensors for exploration use. It is basically i tool that could be passively monitored or actively transmitted through all known major bands of wave lengths. From low audible tones to gamma ray bursts.

Here is a diagram of the entire spectrum

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ubDtWBAA8vR2VjR0hBLU8wQzA

Many great sci fi media use scanners of these types as it relates to real science as we know it. Sorry but the pics stopped working but you still can click the link.


First may I suggest that there be more variety regarding scanning modules. It would be logical that an ADS & DSS single module could be available for a size 2 or 3 slot. Also it is puzzling that larger ship sensors are so big and heavy yet do no more functions than a smaller ships sensors.

Given some thought I will try to convey my real life experience in "discovery" as an EMC technician. I have used a few types of test equipment to track down sources of emissions, mostly RF (radio frequency) from 100Hz to 80GHz. All emissions of course are directional and probes of different kinds detect them.

The same principal can be found in endless Sci Fi media as well as real life. This is sort of in the game now with the scanners but only ,get close and scanner works, type function. It would be much more true to science to have a 'frequency domain' type analyzer like a spectrum analyzer that we use today.

Here is an example of this type of display that might show quite a few signals in different wave lengths but in the same band relatively.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/XxmiAOJ0FZLQiydasEvPXxkio33OiLZ4-DeTsfZhKCz2V0ao479N-7uTJbe06Lnkjh90zZYJhnbn06k=w1039-h615

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3ubDtWBAA8vck53TGpfYUpyZUU/view?usp=sharing

This is an example of some mixing of a few signals that likely are related to each other. A different band would be a nice feature. Bands could be segmented into 5 to 25 whatever makes sense to represent all the possibilities explorers might come across.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ubDtWBAA8vSG1zRVNvby12OXM

https://drive.google.com/uc?view=export&id=0B3ubDtWBAA8vRHhMOUJsOFczMFU

This screen is an example of the noise floor which may be greater or lesser depending on proximity to the source as all signals will change amplitude relative to an explorers position.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ubDtWBAA8vQmVhcno5SkJOWFE

This is a bit more detailed digital type display with harmonics tapering off to the left, and a unrelated strong signal in the center. These are probably a bit to detailed for in game use but with in game elements sorted into different bands a tool like this would be not only engaging but can inform you of all sorts of things that cannot be seen with eyes just as in the real science of radiating wave lengths.

As of now we have almost no tools as explorers to discover things (non stellar body) in a system. I know that the spawning element of the game presents a problem with my proposed mechanic, but there are already quite a few persistent POI's in game as well.

I would imagine that in 3302 that ships would be able to equip a scanner with a FFT type frequency domain display that could detect all wave lengths and a small hud window that would be a main element of such a discovery tool.

In regards to assigning wave lengths it should be fairly simple because we can refer to what we know about real astronomy and give stellar objects a rough pattern of a real anomaly.

Audio is also an aspect that can add useful and interesting dynamics like the SRV scanner has. These are the things we use today to explore the space around us. Would it not be cool to do the same in your ship where ever you go?

Oh, and how do we discover other life forms? With these same tools today like SETI. So instead of just traveling to a place we can keep a ear and an eye on a realistic 3302 ship scanner.

The principal is simple, the closer you get to anything the higher the signal would be. Yet there is always a background noise floor from stellar bodies. This noise is greater in amplitude than smaller things to be discovered until a pilot is close enough. This is where discovery becomes interesting. Having to track down a signal in the noise.

Different materials, crashed ships, distress beacons, anything would naturally have a different frequency and amplitude ie beacons vs materials, or react when hit with active probing scan.

This would be a much more engaging way for explorers to discover things in game in a realistic manner. A player would (like with the srv scanner) gain an understanding of what signals in the spectrum are likely to be. Player could focus on a chosen signal, follow it as it rises in amplitude until the general area of the source is found.
In space there might be little background noise so the signal could be found easier than say on a planet which would have more background noise,thus more difficult to pinpoint.

Then the srv would come into play. The ship sensors would normally be too sensitive and overloaded with many signal sources aside from a transmitter like an operational beacon.

To me this realistic type of mechanic could be a great foundation to build exploration on. I know that this might require more persistence but the gain of engagement and realistic type of discovery could be so worth it. Like focusing on escape pod signals in deep space and bringing a pilot back to life, who would be grateful and reward you or even join your crew out of respect and loyalty. [cool] As the player you might feel like 'It took me hours to track your signal down, I almost missed your signal completely and so on.


Now how this could be used in puzzles could be like a passive scan to analyze and attempts to get different responses from objects or anomalies. Different energy bursts like a certain visible color of light plus a tone may trigger a reaction. Like in Close Encounters, communication was attempted by a computer linked to different audio tones and colors of visible light. These are realistic forms of interaction or communication that could provide interesting exploration game play.

Now there are also other uses for an active array that can transmit. A gamma ray burst could realistically do some serious damage to some objects or a burst at 2.4Ghz would tend to heat up anything containing water as microwave ovens do in reality.

The possibilities of such a scanner array become endless, and depth to exploration much greater.

 

[akaliel]

Yes! Everything you said.

 

[Starstrydur]

I'm not sure how more than that number of people can be the first to solve a problem? How can we make it so that everyone can solve the puzzles? Or -say- 10,000 people. It would be genuinely great for 10,000 players to all be able to get the thrill of being the first ones to crack puzzles, and I'd totally support that. How would it happen?

To clarify, *individual steps* of mysteries are ultimately solved by one or two people. Lots of other people try. Lots of ideas get posted. People test and explore the theories. Eventually someone posts a theory that looks solid. A bunch of people go and see if it works. The individual stage of the puzzle is solved and people start looking at what to do next. Puzzles have multiple stages. It's not like one person does it and nothing else happens. It's a community effort. If we are talking about bringing involvement to a wider community... how is that going to happen? Are the trail of in-game puzzles going to be simple enough for every individual player to solve? Then the player is involved, but he's just repeating what other people have done and following their footsteps. Is that any different than going to Lave and Merope, writing down the nonogram numbers and doing the nonogram yourself?

Is that ok as regards player satisfaction: Having a bunch of clues and knowing that the puzzle is designed simply enough that everyone can do it and that a bunch of people did it first and found the mystery? At this point, you can just look up the 'end' co-ordinates on the forum (much like we do now on the Canonn thread) and not bother with the puzzle. I'm not really seeing that as a solution.

And if the in-game mechanic puzzle is extremely hard, then players will feel excluded again. It will have to require 'out of game' knowledge and thinking to be mentally challenging. Or we can make it challenging in terms of running around doing stuff, at which point people will shout 'grind' and claim that FD are just padding out 'empty' gameplay. Or it can be a fiendishly hard mini-game that requires cat-like reactions or something.... which is then still excluding a large number of players, but this time on a hand-eye co-ordination level, rather than an intellectual one. That's not a solution to the problem, either.

I guess I've seen 'in game mini game' used a lot as a way of making puzzles inclusive. The thing is, that still doesn't help enormously as regards players not feeling that they have participated in contributing to emerging plot and story. It's still a puzzle. It will either require a lot of skill - excluding players - or little skill - mooting the entire process and just making it a process. In either case, a player who currently feels rather excluded is still not going to get that buzz of being a discoverer of something new, because there'll already be 10 Youtube videos.

The only way I can see that work is via a CG. But it'd be dissatisfying, I think. Here is why: We'd all have a puzzle thing to do, and if we do it, we count as contributing to the CG and can only contribute one. We have all helped the story. Now How hard do we want to make this? We can't make it hard because then people will feel excluded. And anyway, if it is made hard then the solution would be on youtube and many of the people doing it will just follow a walk-through Really easy so that anyone can do it? OK: It's fetch quests or whatever - a quest line that requires no particular skill (because we want everyone to feel like they can be involved). So we - as players - go through the series of mini-games, scanning stuff, doing nothing intellectually too difficult so that people feel excluded, nor requiring too big a ship, or ninja reactions. At the end of it we get a 'point' towards the CG.

We haven't been the first to do the thing, we can look up the solution to the thing if we want, and the puzzle is kind of useless after the CG ends. But we have contributed as one of 10,000 contributes to the CG. We have individual plot and story. Is that satisfying as regards being involved? Bear in mind that if you miss the CG, do not find the start of the quest, or buy the game a year later, the player will not be contributing to story and will not be involved: The entire series of things will even possibly be gone from the game.

As an aside:

How many people here who want more plot, more involvement and individual mini-games and in-game tools would be willing to pay £10 a month as subscriptions?

How many would be willing for FD to permanently put aside one point release a season (or at least a good measure of one), every season for story development, effectively reducing 'new stuff' by 10-25% per season? We don't get to pick and chose what gets dropped for this: It would cost the sacrifice of 10-25% of features we want.

I'm personally good with the later, but not the former. Drop it down to three point releases in a season, but over the same period of time, at the cost of more storyline.

I can't believe how hard it is for you to understand that people want interactive game play. And your comments about how terrible in game play would turn out sound like you are a fortune teller.

Look. People want a chance and a choice of how to interact with discovery and story elements. Just like Soooo Many other games there are puzzles in game. If one can't seem to figure one out for themselves then they make a choice and then go to outside game information.

And you still cannot understand how players would like the story content to be in game. Why is that so difficult?

 

[Starstrydur]

Sadly, this is exactly the kind of comment FD would receive in the event of introducing an 'story missions' which require the gathering or stuff, long range travel, or anything which isn't constantly directly challenging in some way. Anything 'low skill' can be considered a grind if it takes more than an hour to complete. Anything less than several hours to complete is going to be accused of not providing enough content or being over too swiftly. Anything 'high skill' is said to exclude players.

It's rather a catch 22.

I could not disagree more. Many many games have had difficult puzzles and players loved them. Yes there will always be some complaining. But don't assume you know what would happen, and something cannot be successful.

 

[bitstorm]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3ubDtWBAA8vR2VjR0hBLU8wQzA

To get google drive images to work, change the :

`open?` bit to `uc?view=export&`

so...

 

[Lowievisser]

These riddles are designed for CANONN, they work as intended (and are actually quite good at that).

"What's in it for me ?" dare you ask. Well, fear not my friend, for FD has a new treat for you, me, and the rest of the player base ! FD designed a brand new gameplay mechanic called "passengers", so we can ferry 'people' instead of poop from A to B and even C.

Now, please enjoy your new content and stop complaining.

no reward anymore

 

[Starstrydur]

I was more thinking on the line of : each week, 100 systems or more get beacons/articles related to a special POI created for the occasion. The game generates an enigma/puzzle to find said POI.

Put good stuff at the POI, like high grade engineer stuff, alien ships, rank boosts with factions and other cold diamond cargo
(e.g. Anaconda wreck with 120t of cold diamonds, or military convoy crash site with a bunch of AI relics and so on...)
and FD will have rather nice stuff that 1) can be solved by most 2) give nice rewards 3) might bring people in places they would otherwise not visit 4) add in an expiration period ~few weeks on those POI's and the skipping to the end problem goes away.

Yes +1 These are good ideas you are throwing in. I think things like these would breath new life into exploration. and could set up base mechanics to generate story content. As others have been saying we first need ship scanners to find things. I think FD could accomplish this but it would probably have to be done in steps because of the complexity.

If players could see steps in this direction I believe players would gain patience and work with FD more because the end product could be great.

 

[Drelthar]

Remember the time when we thought that USS, conflicht zones, missions etc. were just placeholders for better gameplay mechanics?
And then powerplay and some "mission system updates" happened. [haha]

Yes, it is pretty sad that they continued to add things into USS's, instead of replacing them with something more interesting.

However, they could add a bunch of gameplay around searching for them, even making it more interesting and fun to find engineering resources perhaps.

Conflict zones are pitiful.... They need actual time based elements to them, the basics of a narrative to them, just some kind of ending would be a good start, one you can participate in, in real time, rather than grind until the database "ticks" You don't need to remove the ticks, they work just fine, just have the actual scenarios have a damn ending... I don't understand how they don't.

Then you can add in all sorts of extra elements like escorting a special T9 that's carrying a MEGABOMB towards the enemy cap ship to take it out.

Keeping a generals damaged Federal drop ship (which just managed to drop troops onto the nearby planet under heavy fire) alive while he reboot/repairs it, and taking out the attacking ships to give him a chance to jump out.

Then the opposite of those two, then any number of other scenarios games designers and writers get paid to come up with.

How about a big, USS in three very well visited systems with suspicious names like 'Unregistered Comms Beacon'?
Because - being slightly cynical towards the player base, not yourself here - we just did that, and a lot of people seemed to take issue with it, because they could not be involved in that.

Well, at least one of them was within a permit locked system, which stopped me from getting my friend involved after I happened upon it, as, he had just managed to buy an adder, and didn't yet have a permit for the system. Minor thing though, I'm sure it was elsewhere and I could probably have found out from the information I was getting from that thing I found. But then my joystick broke! so no chance yet.

 

[Leo Sagan]

I was more thinking on the line of : each week, 100 systems or more get beacons/articles related to a special POI created for the occasion. The game generates an enigma/puzzle to find said POI.

Put good stuff at the POI, like high grade engineer stuff, alien ships, rank boosts with factions and other cold diamond cargo
(e.g. Anaconda wreck with 120t of cold diamonds, or military convoy crash site with a bunch of AI relics and so on...)
and FD will have rather nice stuff that 1) can be solved by most 2) give nice rewards 3) might bring people in places they would otherwise not visit 4) add in an expiration period ~few weeks on those POI's and the skipping to the end problem goes away.

Excellent proposition, I'd like that a lot

 

[Denneb]

As a Canonn member -but speaking only for myself here- and, having also the luck of making one of the discoveries that made it to the front page of the "megathread", I still want to express that I agree with the OP. In my humble opinion, puzzles that need external resources like audio spectrogram analyzing, video editing, extreme forum dwelling, or even require the need to carefully look at a video teaser to spot a location, CAN exist in game BUT they should ONLY lead to secondary discoveries or "easter eggs", and NOT to any major storyline breakthroughs. The main mysteries of the game should be able to be followed and possibly solved by everyone, by using in-game resources.

 

[Leo Sagan]

As a Canonn member -but speaking only for myself here- and, having also the luck of making one of the discoveries that made it to the front page of the "megathread", I still want to express that I agree with the OP. In my humble opinion, puzzles that need external resources like audio spectrogram analyzing, video editing, extreme forum dwelling, or even require the need to carefully look at a video teaser to spot a location, CAN exist in game BUT they should ONLY lead to secondary discoveries or "easter eggs", and NOT to any major storyline breakthroughs. The main mysteries of the game should be able to be followed and possibly solved by everyone, by using in-game resources.

Thanks for bringing some reason to the pro-riddles guys. I'd even say that there is no problem with the obscure riddles leading to a major element of the storyline. But it has to be balanced and more wide open in game mechanics should be used as well.

Congrats on you discovery, you guys are awesome. +rep for the fairplay

 

[Archvillain]

What I want is for all of us to have more stuff to find, and the tools in the game for us to find them and when something is found it should result in - something. When xdeath found the city, what did he get? Did his detailed surface scan reward him handsomely?

More is always better, but at the same time don't overlook that there is already constantly more stuff to find with in-game tools, perhaps more than you're aware. I suspect that communicating/finding the kind of challenges you want amidst all the other content/story/noise is part of the problem - it has always been a weakness of Elite. It's better now than it was, but still. There is unfortunately also of course a big limit on how much new/live content FDev can generate for us per week/month/year, and that limited amount gets further divided up across a lot of different player's different interests, so if there are aspects of the game you're less interested in, then there can be dry periods while other players get some attention. For me, if I get two good puzzle-mysteries in a year to get my teeth into (amidst the ton of content they generate that appeals more to other people than to me), I'm pretty happy with that - that's more than most other games for me. It would be GREAT if there was always something good to get your teeth into, but I really can't see FDev having the resources for that scale of operation without a subscription fee to pay for it

What xdeath got when he found the city was the same thing you get for discovery in the real world - the amazement and shock of the moment, seeing the excitement it generates in others, to have played a part in moving the state of knowledge forward, to have your name immortal in a corner of the history books and among fellow enthusiasts, the respect and recognition of your peers, etc.

You've probably never met that pilot (xdeath), but you know of him (her?) by name and you know what he did and you just causually mentioned their callsign in conversation. To me that's cool!

Do discoveries really feel worthless for you if they don't have a big paycheck or some other instant big payoff attached? There are so many ways to make money in the game.
I guess there's no harm in it - eg maybe a galactic organisation setting up a scholarship that gives a payout each week to pilots who do something particularly noteworthy - but at the same time... if discovery (and puzzle-solving) is not inherently satisfying for it's own sake and for the reasons above, I guess I don't understand why you want to do it so much. I suspect that a monetary payoff wouldn't actually add quite as much satisfaction as it sounds, though it could add some. I doubt people are opposed to big payoffs, but people are rightly wary of munchkinism reward-inflation which can be the result of more need for more payoffs, so leaving discovery to those who seek it for its own sake (and for the glory!) seems fair enough to me. But if enough players participating in activities want money for discovery, I think it'll probably eventually happen.