Why FSS Mode Must Go

[-VR- Max Factor]

I, for myself, would even be more than happy if I could revert MY game to pre-3.3. Even when I would have to be playing a "standalone" and solo-only version of ED. I have no need of all this fancy bugged "new" content, this absurd PP and BGS, the inconsistent and pathetic "story-lines", redundant new ships or this meaningless Codex. Just give me the beautiful Stellar Forge and a Sidey.
Just give me "Elite: Explorers", please.

That's fine, but that isn't the game that Fdev are making and never advertised it as such. Maybe have a look at space engine. You can explore galaxies, systems and planets without any of that gameplay stuff to get in the way.

 

[Scytale]

Maaax.... !

Spoiler

 

[Enderby]

I wouldn't mind as much if it wasn't so lame.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Maaax.... !

Cool. You must feel so proud of yourself when you post those replies.

 

[Burke]

I wouldn't mind as much if it wasn't so lame.

I dont like using the word but in this case its internet appropriate. Its the most accurate way to describe the FSS. Its .

Jaw droppingly ?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I dont like using the word but in this case its internet appropriate. Its the most accurate way to describe the FSS. Its .

Jaw droppingly ?

Thankfully nowhere near as lame as the old version of exploring.

 

[Enderby]

Far, far, (I say!), lamer because it pretends to be fun new 'gameplay'.

Yet, it gives us a kids' mini-game masquerading as cool new space stuff.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Far, far, (I say!), lamer because it pretends to be fun new 'gameplay'.

Yet, it gives us a kids' mini-game masquerading as cool new space stuff.

There is no pretence. It's just gameplay, it doesn't pretend to be anything else. You either like it or you don't.

 

[Darkfyre99]

And that is fair comment marx. Darkfyre takes the view that provided it is no compulsory fitment the return of the ADS would not be a problem, which in my view is a reasonable stance to take. The OP in this thread takes an unreasonable view that others should be denied something that works for them.

That's the thing-- I think if we got at least some of the old ADS honk functionality back, via an optional module, it would make a lot of people happy. It seems like the "least evil" way to give functionality back to those who want it, but not force it on those who don't.

As much as I hate repeatedly going in circles on this, I do hope that FDev at least considers the above. Personally I like the FSS as a replacement for the artificial scan timers we used to have, but I too would like the old honk data back as well, if it becomes an option.

^^^
This

I have no issue with Frontier putting in back some of the old ADS functionality as an optional module, because that means that I won't have to use it. I very much have an issue with adding back in that old ADS functionality to the FSS, because I explore for a sense of discovery, and that old ADS functionality utterly destroyed any sense of discovery for me. If I had a choice, I'd turn off that dang system data sharing thing outside the Bubble as well. I have no issue with others sharing my discoveries, but seeing orbit lines outside my cockpit that are obviously not stellar related generally spoils a system, from a discovery gameplay perspective.

 

[Faded Glory]

^^^
This

I have no issue with Frontier putting in back some of the old ADS functionality as an optional module, because that means that I won't have to use it. I very much have an issue with adding back in that old ADS functionality to the FSS, because I explore for a sense of discovery, and that old ADS functionality utterly destroyed any sense of discovery for me. If I had a choice, I'd turn off that dang system data sharing thing outside the Bubble as well. I have no issue with others sharing my discoveries, but seeing orbit lines outside my cockpit that are obviously not stellar related generally spoils a system, from a discovery gameplay perspective.

Yes, you've been very consistent about why an ADS type discovery would spoil, even ruin your exploration experience, and quite a few of us, when making suggestions have been very clear that we would want anything that provides a system reveal be an optional module.

As I've said often before, I'm a bit mystified why some people (not you) seem to be so passionately against an optional alternative way of exploring when they'd never be required to use it.

And that really is the problem for those of us who don't like the FSS. There is no alternative when it comes to exploring. It's entirely unnecessary in the bubble, even though it can be used to find mission targets and identify USS's, there are alternatives, but if a player wants to explore but dislikes the FSS they are out of luck.

I have no idea whether FD will consider re-instating an optional module that provides an alternative. I hope they do as I cannot see a downside to doing so, but insisting that players play a specific way has never really been their style, even when it's clear that it's something they want players to do. The best way (IMO obviously) to get players to use something is to make the advantages of using that thing overwhelming, and I think FD would do well to let the FSS stand on its merits (and build on them over time), but still give those who prefer not to use it an alternative.

 

[Riverside]

Perhaps a more productive direction to take the discussion would be to consider why FDev felt the ADS could not be incorporated into the new discovery process.

 

[Spaceman Si]

I have no issue with Frontier putting in back some of the old ADS functionality as an optional module, because that means that I won't have to use it. I very much have an issue with adding back in that old ADS functionality to the FSS, because I explore for a sense of discovery, and that old ADS functionality utterly destroyed any sense of discovery for me.

Out of everyone who has made the case for the FSS, you have consistently put forward the most interesting and clearly well thought-out reasons for how to use it, in ways that I'm not sure Frontier even thought of

As much as I dislike it, I would hate for it to be actually removed now that a tranche of the player base has invested time in it, and clearly enjoy it. It would, however, be entirely appropriate to give some form of the ADS back to those players that relied upon it for deriving game pleasure, and whose game has been despoiled as a result. If this was done as an optional module, as Darkfyre reasonably suggests, this would probably bring a welcome resolution to the whole issue.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Perhaps a more productive direction to take the discussion would be to consider why FDev felt the ADS could not be incorporated into the new discovery process.

Pretty much.

 

[sollisb]

Perhaps a more productive direction to take the discussion would be to consider why FDev felt the ADS could not be incorporated into the new discovery process.

Sorry, the FSS is dumb. To me, it looks like someone watched a 1930s b-movie, and then came into the Frontier offices and submitted the squeaky button smasher as the next coming of jeebus uselessness.

I can see the planet out my cockpit window, but the FSS cannot tune to it. Well wow, how does that happen?

The FSS is so good it can distinguish planetary bodies in sub-orbit of another body. But if there's a body in front of it, it's suddenly unable to work? What the actual... And then, it has the amazing ability to be able to find and show all USSs, those tiny little things in space, yet it is unable to target individual planets?

And why can it not work when the ship is moving ? I bet not one person can put forward a hypothosis with a minuscule degree of believability to explain that conundrum. Here we are in 2019 with radios that can pick up stations continents away in our moving cars, yet the best at Frontier thought this was believable?

Apollo 11 got to the moon with the computing power of less than a mobile phone, and yet Frontier give us a spectrometer that can only work when stationary? How come the spectrometer on our SRV works while moving?

And are we really to believe that in the era of Elite, they don't have inter-system communications to upload and download system maps? I mean, really? My Garmin is able to keep itself upto date with road networks around the entire planet, yet again, in the era of Elite, Systems next door can't even communicate that commander Expo has just mapped the entire region? So, everyone has to map it because... hand waviom reasons.

The bottom line is it's a pathetic excuse of a design, with no basis in logic, and given to us under the guise of 'better exploration'.

Some like it, maybe lots like it, for me, it's a pile of manure devoid of imagination and believability.

 

[Zeeman]

I'm pretty sure I've commented here before, and now that I've done a hundred thousand LY or so with the new FSS, I can't see the issue with an option ADS. Those that want it can use it, all it really is, is a device the decodes the waveforms for you - on a minimal level, at that, as you'd likely still need to "zoom in" to get the proper scan.

On a side note, I still don't understand the need for HUD modes, just an annoying additional binding that has no good reason. Scan groups needs to be a thing (in addition to Fire groups - because, ferheavensake, scanner are not mounted to hard points. the HUD mode should be automatic, though, honestly, I don't think it's needed at all. We did well enough before, it's not like the current FSS info can't populate on the combat HUD (and vice versa) - I mean, you can't even use them in the same instance! Who uses their weapons in Supercruise?

Finally, I'd love to see the waveform thing from the system scan on the HUD, so I don't have to go into the FSS to see it.

I certainly appreciated the time I have save in not having to fly up to every single planet to get a scan, and am happy to fly up to it if I do want to probe it.
Z...

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Is this where we're all hanging out now?

@Burke, @MaxFactor - can you guys both just chill? Bickering will just get this thread locked and we'll be left waiting for someone else to post an "I hate/love the FSS thread".

@Darkfyre, @Marx, @AnyoneWhosInterested - I posted this in one of the argument threads a while ago, but it got lost in the bickering. It's a suggestion for how I think FDev could have made exploration work for everyone, and I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.

Initial Honk
Populates System Map (including orrery) and Nav Panel with locations of masses within the system. Masses are resolved into individual bodies as range reduces, based on the size/mass of the body - similar to the way the old DSS activated at different distances, depending on the size/mass of the body. So at 5,000 Ls you don't know if that blob is one big gas giant, or two smaller ones - whether it has moons is a mystery.


Secondary stars are identified only by class - the information is currently available from the GalMap - and again will require proximity for resolution and identification of orbital bodies.




Scanners
All scanning functions are shifted to sub-modules of the core scanner package. The size of the scanner package determines the number of sub-modules that can be fitted, and the class determines their range. This allows all ships to continue to be used for exploration, but it means that a Sidey will be less capable than a 'Conda.


[Balancing]
There's some balancing work to be done here - probably necessary to allow a smaller core scanner to be fitted, since you currently only have the option of which class to fit. Allowing smaller scanners lets players make a trade off between mass number of sub-modules and range. 'Condas could drop a scanner size to improve their jump range, or to increase the range of the scanners, but at the cost of capability. This would likely need to be limited to dropping one size otherwise we'll have 'Condas fitting size 1 scanners and having a base jump of 200LY. Or just nerf the 'Conda
[/Balancing]


Sub-module types (there are probably more, but this will do for starters)
USS detection
Universal Cartographics integration (allows previously explored systems to auto-resolve)
Detailed Surface Scanner
Biological anomaly detection
Guardian/Thargoid anomaly detection
Space pixie detection
KWS
Manifest Scanner
Wake Scanner
Mining stuff scanner - haven't kept up with the changes so I don't know the details




So, all of this is making exploration more challenging - strategy and fog-of-war will do that - and you wanted fun, so...




Probes


Deep Space
An optional new 'deep space' probe module that allows players to remotely explore the system.
Probes have limited fuel, but that fuel is only used for acceleration/maneuvering so they have infinite range, if you're prepared to wait long enough. The capabilities of the probe match the scanner sub-modules.
Probes are launched via the orrery and can be used to scan multiple bodies by using gravity slingshot techniques and their onboard fuel- like NASA does now. Probes are finite (but synthesizable), so you definitely want to be hitting multiple bodies with them, unless you like gathering mats.
DSP module size and class will determine the number of probes which can be launched simultaneously and their fuel reserves - same behavior as limpet controllers - and will be engineerable. Mass and power draw should probably be the same as limpet controllers.

Surface
Keep the existing surface probe gameplay but make them finite (but synthesizable), but the results will be hotspots showing probably locations, so that the player still has to explore the area (by ship or SRV) to locate the anomaly. SRV scanners will show the anomalies but ship scanners won't - so either eyeball the area or drive around. You're going to be driving around to gather mats anyway.



'Dedicated' Exploration Ship
It seems like people really want one of these, and this system allows for it - simply make the new ship have a larger scanner than every other ship, and be the only one that can fit all exploration modules. Then it can compete with the 'Conda without having to have a stupidly large jump range and the rest of the internals can be sized so that it doesn't also become the best multirole ship.

I think FDev had the right intentions - making exploration more interactive and accessible - but they made the mistake of oversimplifying the mechanics and completely forgot about the experience aspect. I like to think that my way avoids those pitfalls

 

[[VR] Merkir]

FWIW, I'm on the DW2 expedition right now and here's a bit of personal feedback on exploration pre and post FSS...


Pre FSS:
My previous large exploration trip was through Sag A and beyond, casually looking for undiscovered bodies/configurations. In no particular order:
- ELW/WWs etc., (cherrypicking)
- planetary nebula (PN),
- unusual planetary configurations,
- "fun" planets (colours, mountains, chasms, etc.)

I was able to do this all in VR, although the search for undiscovered PN was not ideal in VR, using the galactic map. That hasn't changed ofc.

No issue with the ADS. As a zero-gameplay placeholder, it wasn't boring because the 5 seconds was generally performed during scooping. In effect it didn't exist. The ADS populated the System Map and therefore every system was a tiny "instant gratification" when the System Map was revealed.

Discovering worlds by flying towards them was not something I did extensively, only sporadically when I saw something I might like, and it broke up the stellar jumping nicely.

Importantly, a LOT of systems could be reviewed per hour to see if a wide variety of my "desirables" might be present.


Post FSS:
- ELW/WWs/Notables, etc., (cherrypicking) - as fast as before. Replacing the visual of the planet with squiggly lines is a downgrade but no real issue,
- planetary nebula (PN) - not during DW2, but same process as before,
- unusual planetary configurations - I no longer do this. The FSS is a huge QoL downgrade. Takes minutes instead of seconds.
- "fun" planets (colours, mountains, chasms, etc.) - as above, I no longer do this.

In short, I'm reduced to cherrypicking. And after a (rare) successful cherry pick, only then will I look for unusual configurations and "fun" planets.

Secondly, I started DW2 in VR but I had to ditch it. I'm monitor only now - disappointing. I'm loving the extra resolution, but it's no match for immersion. The extra FSS mode change and the FSS procedure itself makes the VR exploration experience, overall, worse than the monitor now. Obviously YMMV.

I very much like the results of the FSS - the POIs, the remote discovery, Notables, USSs in the bubble, etc., but the procedure itself is something I'd only ever do very rarely if I can avoid it. Lining up circles within circles within blue blobs is not in any way realistic and is certainly not fun. Again, YMMV.

I'd love to see the FSS procedure (only) change dramatically, for example by starting with an enhanced orrery view. Such suggestions have been made by myself and others in many previous threads, so I won't detail here.

As to this thread, and ditching the FSS, certainly not if it means going back to the ADS, but I'd definitely support the ADS being brought back as an optional module for the players wanting that.

My overall feeling is that the FSS is a step in the right direction and FDev's intentions were good, but it's missed the mark with the procedure itself. 5/10.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Is this where we're all hanging out now?

@Burke, @MaxFactor - can you guys both just chill? Bickering will just get this thread locked and we'll be left waiting for someone else to post an "I hate/love the FSS thread".

@Darkfyre, @Marx, @AnyoneWhosInterested - I posted this in one of the argument threads a while ago, but it got lost in the bickering. It's a suggestion for how I think FDev could have made exploration work for everyone, and I'd appreciate your thoughts on it.



I think FDev had the right intentions - making exploration more interactive and accessible - but they made the mistake of oversimplifying the mechanics and completely forgot about the experience aspect. I like to think that my way avoids those pitfalls

I'm not really bickering with anyone. Just showing that calling something meaningless names can go both ways.

It's just very silly when people need to stoop that low instead of being constructive.

I have tried being constructive and given out ideas why but 99% of the time it falls on deaf ears. I swear some just complain because they can.

You are one of the few that is constructive and come out with ideas that could work. Shame the others can't do that, but instead have to to start saying stuff like; it's lame, it's childish, it's crap why which to me are veiled insults to the people that do like it. All it will do is get the thread closed, and then these people will blame me or some other pro FSS player.

 

[Scytale]

I think FDev had the right intentions - making exploration more interactive and accessible

Oh sure they had !
They just followed the easy way.
They gave the kids what they asked for. The very "I want all, now, with no effort and at zero cost! " cake. And so, spoiled my superb space exploration game...
Zeitgeist has arrived at FD...
I'll just wait and see what they are going to mismatch in the future.
There is still a lot of this game left to be spoiled [haha]

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Drew. This is exactly what I am talking about.

Oh sure they had !
They just followed the easy way.
They gave the kids what they asked for. The very "I want all, now, with no effort and at zero cost! " cake. And so, spoiled my superb space exploration game...
Zeitgeist has arrived at FD...
I'll just wait and see what they are going to mismatch in the future.
There is still a lot of this game left to be spoiled [haha]