Why I am miffed at Frontier Development for the „Second Thargoid war“ - with suggestions to improve

[HappyMoonMonkey]

I cannot fly rescue, evac, or do anything connected to the war without supporting the human side of the war.

You are a conscientious objector. Historical wars have seen conscientious objectors act as medics on the frontline and aid their fellow countrymen in a variety of other support roles. You can still support the peaceful option.

Realistically at this point in the story presumably your position could be that we just try and hold the Thargoids back while seeking alternative contact methods. The only other position is advocate for a wholesale retreat from the systems the Thargoids are advancing into while seeking alternative. Either way, surely you're role right now is to evacuate those civilians in mortal danger?

It's not FDev that's the problem here, but humanity, including choices made by the player base in RP(greedy and/or manipulated or not). If you're going to continue to RP then you need to decide to help the innocent or ignore them.

 

[Anantyanta]

You are a conscientious objector. Historical wars have seen conscientious objectors act as medics on the frontline and aid their fellow countrymen in a variety of other support roles. You can still support the peaceful option.

Realistically at this point in the story presumably your position could be that we just try and hold the Thargoids back while seeking alternative contact methods. The only other position is advocate for a wholesale retreat from the systems the Thargoids are advancing into while seeking alternative. Either way, surely you're role right now is to evacuate those civilians in mortal danger?

This is exactly the role-play option my commander is going for, as I mentioned before. See https://inara.cz/elite/cmdr-logbook-entry/306197/74275/

What I'm trying to say is that I, as player (meta level), am discouraged from following that role-play choice since I know I'd be advancing the human war effort by doing "humanitarian" tasks.

It's not FDev that's the problem here, but humanity, including choices made by the player base in RP(greedy and/or manipulated or not). If you're going to continue to RP then you need to decide to help the innocent or ignore them.

It is FDev who are the problem since they do not offer any game mechanic within the "war" storyline which does not support the human war effort.

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

they do not offer any game mechanic within the "war" storyline which does not support the human war effort

No, you've lost me here. How do you wish to engage in the war without supporting the war then?

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

Rescuing civilians does not equal destroying thargoids?

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

It's not FDev that's the problem here, but humanity, including choices made by the player base in RP(greedy and/or manipulated or not). If you're going to continue to RP then you need to decide to help the innocent or ignore them.

In my perception (which of course can easily be wrong), most of the player base do not RP at all. They do not act according to what makes sense in-universe and in-story, they decide what reward they want and then act accordingly. They play the game systems, not the game, if you will. It is an approach I personally dislike, but you cannot blame people for doing that. I would guess a lot of players simply do not care about the story, they care about pew pew and toys.

But that is also the reason the players were so easily manipulated into supporting, as said above, the obvious villain. It is not like Arthur and the CMs were any kind of subtle on their streams, but, apart from brilliant things like OWH, the players still went with it.

Now, you can like it or dislike it, but it is how it is, and now we have to live with the Thargoids wanting to get rid of us. Personally, I am very curious and giddy how the long term story will play out and that the never changing status quo has been disrupted.

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

I think most of the player base does not deliberately role play. That doesn't mean that that they wouldn't have acted in that manner in a role play capacity. If you had a real world election and everyone that voted for the winning side got a multicanon then that side would win. Voter bribery works. In this case, the path that led us to war had the shiniest toys. Elite is set in a galaxy ruled by all sorts of different governments. The powerplayers do not seem to be above manipulation and corruption. Human greed has been manipulated above decency but sadly this is often the case. This does not stop @Anantyanta from acting in a decent way and rescuing innocent civilians caught up in a war that was not of their making.

 

[Frankymole]

Ana’s puppeteer - The 2nd Thargoid war
Thoughts of an Elite Dangerous player on how this storyline has been reached and how is being executed

First off, I appreciate that this game is Frontier’s property, and they can do with it what they want.

As a player of Elite Dangerous, I think I also have the freedom for stating why I am miffed with what they do, and how they do it.

My biggest issue is about choice.
ED has always left us the choice on how to play the game, what to do, and how to go about it.
This has changed with Update 14, Aftermath: War.

Now there is a crisis that threatens (according to FDev) not only the bubble, but any connected human-colonised area, including Colonia.

You can ignore that (for a while, probably), hoping others will do something to stop the invasion, but (again according to FDev), inaction will cause humanity to die out.

Not that I really believe that - FDev will nerf the „Thargoid war machine“ to the point where whoever still „fights“
will earn success. A post-cataclysm Galaxy where the Thargoids have wiped out the bubble and Colonia? Not going to happen, for gameplay reasons.

Besides that, you only can choose to contribute to the human war effort; whatever you do (rescue, evacuate, of course AX combat) counts as pushing the Thargoids back.
What if I do not want that? What if I want to play a pro-peace CMDR who just wants to rescue civilians, but without playing into the hands of self-styled „bug hunters“ with racist (or call it „specy-ist“, if „racist“ for you only covers humans) „Glory to mankind“ slogans?

Where are the options to advance science towards communication and peace with the Thargoids? Does delivering „Unknown relics“ to Palin or Ram Tah achieve anything?f

My other larger beef with Frontier is the characterisation of the Thargoids.

I find it really strange how Frontier has steered this storyline towards the current setting - unless, of course, I consider that „space game with shooting aliens“ is interesting for more players than „space game without shooting aliens“. The Thargoids as a story element and gameplay adversary are surely an important part of keeping players in the game (especially as Odyssey on-foot combat, as far as I can see, only appeals to a minority of ED gamers).
But for keeping another species as adversary in the game, there have been many options without forcing us all into the situation described above, in which we either can support an anti-Thargoid war (against at least my moral standards as humans are clearly the invasive species) - or completely abstain from participation. (Yes, I can choose to gank AX commanders, which would be akin to seal clubbing since AX ships are not PVP ships. No, not really a choice.)
My own favourite option would have been to see the Guardian AI arise and attack both humanity and the Thargoids, so humans and Thargoids could have fought side by side, but that is just a side remark.

But Frontier chose to make the Thargoids territorial and really reluctant to attack human ships - until they could no longer ignore us and now have launched a fully-fledged counter-attack.

If you by any chance have read my CMDRs role-play thoughts, you know that she would happily fly rescue and evac missions.
But I find myself not wanting to - due to me (the gamer’s) meta-beef with the developers.
Which leads to extremely reduced ED gaming time on my side.

Please, Frontier - I love this game, please give us back freedom of choice!

Give us mechanics to rescue civilian NPCs without adding to the human war effort.
Awaken the Guardian AI and let us fight alongside the Thargoids.
Give us meaningful ways to achieve communication and peace negotiations with the Thargoids.

Give me something worth playing this game for, again. Thanks.

I can see a lot of the players who view Starship Troopers not as anti-fascist satire, but as a gung-ho playbook, dismissing your thoughts as "too woke". Even though the Elite playerbase is supposed to be mostly greybeards, they sure act like toddlers sometimes.

So bug-squashing is all they enjoy.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I can see a lot of the players who view Starship Troopers not as anti-fascist satire, but as a gung-ho playbook

I noticed this too, although a lot of it is probably this weird internet meta humor I don't get.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

This whole discussion, while viable, is not what this thread was meant to be about. Could you please take this in some bug-related area of the forums? Thanks!
(No, no pun intended.)

You said this in your OP:

My biggest issue is about choice.

My point is that there presently is NO choice.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Thanks for demonstrating very clearly how hard it is for some to keep in-game views distinct from meta (player) thoughts.

I think you have me confused with some "role-player". If you want to role-play something the RP forum is further down. This is a statement of fact. The Bubble as stated by fdev will be overrun unless we do something about it. That is happening as we speak, the Thargoids are taking over more systems than we are defending. The AXI failed to make a dent vs. a controlled system and the rest of us can't keep up with the rate of expansion.
Going to Colonia isn't viable, if we don't stop the Thargoids in the Bubble, we won't stop them at all.
Politics is irrelevant, there is no high ground, we survive or we do not.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I think you have me confused with some "role-player". If you want to role-play something the RP forum is further down. This is a statement of fact. The Bubble as stated by fdev will be overrun unless we do something about it. That is happening as we speak, the Thargoids are taking over more systems than we are defending. The AXI failed to make a dent vs. a controlled system and the rest of us can't keep up with the rate of expansion.
Going to Colonia isn't viable, if we don't stop the Thargoids in the Bubble, we won't stop them at all.
Politics is irrelevant, there is no high ground, we survive or we do not.

Agreed. roleplaying your own game in your head is fine, but when it starts contradicting with what is playing out in-game you have reached the limitations of said roleplaying. The game will not change to suit your role play; it will play out how the game master have laid it out. It might be adjusted to how the player base as a whole acts and reacts, but in the end the role player has to adjust the fantasy to the game "reality".

 

[Anantyanta]

No, you've lost me here. How do you wish to engage in the war without supporting the war then?

Humanitarian efforts without advancing human war effort.
Science missions for advancing communication attempts, so we can stop the war without weapons.

Just two ideas - I'm sure a company which has professionals writing stories and developing game mechanics can come up with more.

 

[Anantyanta]

Rescuing civilians does not equal destroying thargoids?

It does not, but it advances the human war "meter".

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Because, mechanics wise, this is a bucket filling game. This will not change. It is a BGS war at its core, and currently the BGS works like this. Sorry if it contradicts with your RP fantasy, but how do you think players would feel about humanitarian efforts that would not fill the bucket? Exactly, they would be very miffed, because then there would be really no choice apart from pew pew. And they would of course not do the humanitarian stuff.

I say it again, be patient how it plays out, but at this time, singing Kumbaya is not an option anymore.

 

[angusmadmac1]

The Bubble as stated by fdev will be overrun unless we do something about it. That is happening as we speak, the Thargoids are taking over more systems than we are defending. The AXI failed to make a dent vs. a controlled system and the rest of us can't keep up with the rate of expansion.
Going to Colonia isn't viable, if we don't stop the Thargoids in the Bubble, we won't stop them at all.
Politics is irrelevant, there is no high ground, we survive or we do not.

We only have Fdevs word that the bubble will burn ( and that really doesn't count for much nowadays ) .. Fdev will play the numbers game trying to keep commander engagement . Also think about it where are the BGS and Powerplay groups? Will they risk alienating those squadron's/ groups by destroying the years of work ? Nope! they can't afford to ..
We will lose a lot of systems in the begining and then slowly claw them back with some amazeballs weapon or genocidal weapon ...
I don't buy into their "our survival" line it's just about commander engagement.
But that's my take

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Humanitarian efforts without advancing human war effort.
Science missions for advancing communication attempts, so we can stop the war without weapons.

If you are waiting for big hero missions that make your special CMDR help solve the big issues - this will not happen. The point of ED is that your CMDR is an insignificant, unimportant drone, not the hero. The story doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around a bunch of corrupt, cynical, hypocrytical lowlifes (the PP leaders) who rule the galaxy for their own benefit. There are no heroes in ED, and if (and that is a big if) anyone will try to advance communication, you will get your chance by filling buckets in a CG. Other than that, your CMDR will have to come to terms with living in a gdirty alaxy at war.

 

[midnight void]

Give us mechanics to rescue civilian NPCs without adding to the human war effort.

at this moment any war efforts = surviving of humanity.
any rescued civilian is anti-xeno action. since they came with one goal - to wipe us out.
if you willing to help thargoids eliminate humanity, there is self-destruct button in your ship.

and hope for peace is possible only when we be able to show enough level of resistance. for now, there is nothing about what to negotiate with us.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

We only have Fdevs word that the bubble will burn ( and that really doesn't count for much nowadays ) .. Fdev will play the numbers game trying to keep commander engagement . Also think about it where are the BGS and Powerplay groups? Will they risk alienating those squadron's/ groups by destroying the years of work ? Nope! they can't afford to ..
We will lose a lot of systems in the begining and then slowly claw them back with some amazeballs weapon or genocidal weapon ...
I don't buy into their "our survival" line it's just about commander engagement.
But that's my take

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. People have been crying for ages to "burn the bubble" and uproot the stale status quo. Now that Frontier seems to be willing to do it, you can't say "but muh BGS territory". I sincerely hope Frontier doesn't buckle to the whining of the BGS groups.

And of course they will balance it to keep the players engaged. Imagine they wouldn't.

 

[Rainbro]

What I'm trying to say is that I, as player (meta level), am discouraged from following that role-play choice since I know I'd be advancing the human war effort by doing "humanitarian" tasks.

It's a tricky situation, but I personally think it's fine to participate so long as the actions taken are directly defensive. The Thargoids have a right to defend their territory, and so do we, regardless of how we got to this point. Defending the bubble is fine. Launching attacks on Thargoid territory because the powers want their stuff isn't.

Hopefully we can minimize the impact of the war on innocents and stay alive long enough to potentially de-escalate in the future, and bring those responsible to justice instead. But now isn't the time for that, we can't undo what happened in HIP 22460. But this retaliation won't last forever, the key is how we respond when the situation shifts - either when the Thargoids decide enough is enough, or when humanity starts salivating over the meta-alloys again.

 

[angusmadmac1]

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. People have been crying for ages to "burn the bubble" and uproot the stale status quo. Now that Frontier seems to be willing to do it, you can't say "but muh BGS territory". I sincerely hope Frontier doesn't buckle to the whining of the BGS groups.

And of course they will balance it to keep the players engaged. Imagine they wouldn't.

I don't care if the bubble burns . I have no interest in this storyline . I never really understood the love of the bubble ? BGS and Powerplay whining ? Not heard much of that ? I only brought them up as their numbers are quite substantial? They may be interested in saving their own little corner ? But nothing else ?
But we shall see what happens ?